With the internet and especially media like TikTok parents are exposing their kids to untold bad influences, etc.
It’s no wonder so many kids think they have mental disorders or any of the other mind viruses going around.
With the internet and especially media like TikTok parents are exposing their kids to untold bad influences, etc.
It’s no wonder so many kids think they have mental disorders or any of the other mind viruses going around.
I remember going to the British Museum one day to read up the treatment for some slight ailment of which I had a touch—hay fever, I fancy it was. I got down the book, and read all I came to read; and then, in an unthinking moment, I idly turned the leaves, and began to indolently study diseases, generally. I forget which was the first distemper I plunged into—some fearful, devastating scourge, I know—and, before I had glanced half down the list of “premonitory symptoms,” it was borne in upon me that I had fairly got it.
I sat for awhile, frozen with horror; and then, in the listlessness of despair, I again turned over the pages. I came to typhoid fever—read the symptoms—discovered that I had typhoid fever, must have had it for months without knowing it—wondered what else I had got; turned up St. Vitus’s Dance—found, as I expected, that I had that too,—began to get interested in my case, and determined to sift it to the bottom, and so started alphabetically—read up ague, and learnt that I was sickening for it, and that the acute stage would commence in about another fortnight. Bright’s disease, I was relieved to find, I had only in a modified form, and, so far as that was concerned, I might live for years. Cholera I had, with severe complications; and diphtheria I seemed to have been born with. I plodded conscientiously through the twenty-six letters, and the only malady I could conclude I had not got was housemaid’s knee.
I felt rather hurt about this at first; it seemed somehow to be a sort of slight. Why hadn’t I got housemaid’s knee? Why this invidious reservation? After a while, however, less grasping feelings prevailed. I reflected that I had every other known malady in the pharmacology, and I grew less selfish, and determined to do without housemaid’s knee. Gout, in its most malignant stage, it would appear, had seized me without my being aware of it; and zymosis I had evidently been suffering with from boyhood. There were no more diseases after zymosis, so I concluded there was nothing else the matter with me.
I sat and pondered. I thought what an interesting case I must be from a medical point of view, what an acquisition I should be to a class! Students would have no need to “walk the hospitals,” if they had me. I was a hospital in myself. All they need do would be to walk round me, and, after that, take their diploma.
Previously, bad influences were limited to what your local neighborhood kids were telling your kid. This could be bad, they could be torturing cats or something, but that wasn't likely. And that floor could be raised by society as a whole improving.
Now, with TikTok, the only limit is what TikTok will ban. Which isn't much. The population segment of kids who aren't supervised in any way used to have an inherent limit. Not any more.
So I suspect there's not necessarily a decrease in parents keeping their kids from bad influences, and more that there's an increase in access to (and severity of) bad influences.
Edit: I should be clear, I want to minimize banning stuff as a solution as much as possible. I think the goal should be to move kids back into supervision and teaching by their parents, and just real people in their life. Parents, friends, educators, etc.
The problem is much of America (and much of the world) is completely boned on this front by living in places that just don't form a community, like suburbs, or just low-density non-walkable areas in general. Complicated by the fact that the vast majority of parents are getting non-work time squeezed out of them by increases in cost of living without any increase in pay.
Banning more stuff is the single-line-item solution, the simple way, the just-get-biden-to-do-an-executive-order way. But I would be horrified if that's all we could manage. I hope we can do the real solutions, not the deeply flawed patch that banning stuff is.
This is the change that has never occurred in human history. Every thread brings up that all complaints about this new media were applied to past forms of media.
My point was more that there were still ways for bad influences to reach people.
This may be new-ish but I’m not sure it’s that new. I grew up with the early web in the late 90s/early 2000s, and it’s always been pretty unfiltered. It wasn’t centralized in the way TikTok is, but plenty of us grew up on the web with little supervision, and web circles were/are much wider than the neighborhood.
there's a lot of stuff we know isn't good and won't consciously choose to go watch. but short video shows us some of that and we subconsciously engage with it more instead of consciously choosing so we watch more and more.
this is hard for adults to deal with but way worse for kids with shitty impulse control.
It may be the case that algorithmic feeds and social networks that have one giant global context tend to expose stuff like this in ways that would have been less likely on the early web. 4chan has always been pretty awful but you wouldn’t have seen it unless you were on 4chan, which for most people was “never”. The norm at the time was to be in multiple different communities, and there typically wasn’t much overlap.
By contrast, TikTok is all one big space, and if the algorithm wants you to see something you’ll see it. That part is new.
Maybe that falls under “monetary influence to drive engagement” in which case I suppose I agree.
I would say it is a really hard problem, because it boils down to trust the trustworthy -- and who to trust is left as an exercise to the reader.
I don't know when it started happening, but why do we continue to let these companies off the hook for their absolutely terrible externalities? Banning these topics if your platform allows children, preteens, etc is absolutely an effective solution if said companies refuse to rectify the problem.
Why should society bare the costs because a company wants to make money at the costs of a child's mental health? How is that just or even fair? Have we truly devolved into a new feudal age where no company can do wrong and we simply have to blame ourselves for their faults? These apps are designed to be psychologically addictive and fuel outrage/fear to drive advertising revenues... why is this acceptable? Why are we blaming parents and not the executives who signed off on these decisions?
[citation needed]
Also, since children don't have the cognitive abilities to critically think, maybe some responsibility should fall onto the parent? You can deflect blame all you want and call for TikTok to go around swinging their banhammer, but your "think of the children" alarmism is short sighted. It's impossible for TikTok to blanket ban an entire topic without causing major damage in the process.
I won't move into "mind reading" territory, but I suspect people who are so trigger happy to ban things online to "protect children" have a guilty conscience due to the lack of effort they put into their own child's development.
The internet boogeyman can only influence your child so much... Raise your kids, people!
What is a valid use-case that a child/teenager requires a phone?
I would argue that don't need unrestricted internet access too, but education has largely moved online.
Also, why can you socialize with the neighbors. Parents used to be super comfortable with "tommy is coming over for dinner or spending that night"
Is that still the case? I don't have any anecdotes on this.
There are less kids overall.
Kids today have more activities, so you won't meet them just by randomly going outside.
They do a lot more activities at home on computer, again you won't meet them randomly outside.
Parents are not even allowed to let their 6-7 years old outside alone, meaning they would had to be with them. Meaning kids won't get habit to he outside nor will find friends outside, even if some kids are around.
And if those other teenagers have phones, they expect you to organize it all by phone. They have own friends they socialize with and coordinate via phones. It is rude to just show up without calling first and you need phone to be reachable by other in the first place.
And other kids will not call on parents home. They are shy or scared.
When kids went to Timmy, pwople assumed landlines. Before landlines, it was accepted to just show up. Today, expectation is phone.
There is a difference in reading an article in a newspaper with critical thinking and lumping through a social media page where the whole purpose is not the content but to keep you glued to the screen.
The timescale of this process is ~15-20 years. "Critical thinking", "common sense" and "being an adult" all refer someone that has cultivated the ability to filter information independently.
I would argue that many 18+ people don't fully develop this skill. See cults, propaganda, conformity for datapoints.
I agree that we SHOULD teach children critical thinking. But MAYBE if you give them a smartphone and social media you should expect this type of result.
In general, I think that the move from TV (where CNN had "authority") to the internet (influencers have the power) can explain some social trends that are going on. Ex. conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen these days with youtube videos slowly hypnotizing you.
Yes, it won't happen overnight. This requires a culture shift. But banning things to coddle children's mind even further will hinder the process.
> I would argue that many 18+ people don't fully develop this skill. See cults, propaganda, conformity for datapoints.
I agree. Which is why I initially said we should teach children critical thinking skills.
> But MAYBE if you give them a smartphone and social media you should expect this type of result.
This is a parental issue. And if a child has incompetent parents, then no proposed solution matters at the end of the day.
> In general, I think that the move from TV (where CNN had "authority") to the internet (influencers have the power) can explain some social trends that are going on.
?
I meant that it takes 15-20 years for critical thinking to develop. I don't think you can teach a kid critical thinking (at least anything that is useful against internet content). The best mechanism is teach them dogma/fear mongering "don't talk to strangers".
> But banning things to coddle children's mind even further will hinder the process I agree with banning content. The technology needs to be eliminated. I realize this is an extreme view, but little value comes from giving kids tech. Tell them to go play outside and explore the world.
> And if a child has incompetent parents, then no proposed solution matters at the end of the day. Yup, the best you can do is TRY to be a good parent and maybe help out with friends that are struggling.
> ? You notice how everyone is politically divided? People are anxious about the future? It's never not been the case that "things are bad" and "life is unpredictable", what is different is the hysteria around "it's the end of days".
All that is social media. Prior to internet, TV told us what to think. It was a unified message - communism bad, nazis bad, etc. Even opposition media was mostly investigative and finding really messed up stuff to "correct" the system. Because these were professional journalists creating an elegant narrative of the world around us. Obviously, 24hr news was the downfall of that. But even there, it was left and right.
Enter the internet, which democratized free speech (GOOD). But ANYONE can say ANYTHING (BAD). Which is how you get ridiculously outlandish conspiracies, niche political movements and just general hate towards everything.
So this social trend of desperation and hopelessness, that's social media.
I find it astonishing that this is the limit of "bad". There are people alive today who were at lynchings in the US as children and cheered them on.
Setting cats on fire by comparison was a harmless past time.
It also worth noting that in the past there were more supervisory resources: homemakers. Now both parents tend to work and have far less capacity to manage those bad influences.
Why do you think you’re less likely to form a community in suburbs? I live in SF in an apt with a walk score of 98 and I don’t think there is much of a “community” here at all.
Every older generation has said this about the incoming generation - without fail.
I'll take the flip side.
There are so many great social medias about loving yourself, loving your kids, crying is okay for dudes, and men don't have to be a certain way (i'm a dude). It's okay not to know how to change your oil or shoot a gun, better to hug someone, allowed/proud to be gay, black, etc etc.
You should not show your feelings to just anyone. You should have self worth and share with those you trust. There is a reason why PR exists for people in the public sphere. Most people will treat you kindly and it is important to remember that, but a good lesson for the internet would be to be keenly aware of the pitfalls of sharing too much and that includes your feelings very often.
I disagree with both. Expressing your feelings is a part of good communication, and feeling free to express sadness or frustration as needed is how you stave off the kinds of arguments and blowups that have much more severe consequences.
But that is act, not emotion.
This is a cornerstone of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is, in short, "I am free to notice that when this happens, I feel this certain way, and that usually relates to these outcomes. How can my behavior influence this in my favor?"
The alternate that "you are allowed to show your feelings" is trying to combat, is the idea that you can't show your feelings to anyone, at any time.
So your advice is correct, but nowhere near the issue yet. You're telling people when to shift into fourth gear, when they're struggling to get out of first.
Changing oil and car tires, shooting a gun, fishing and performing basic repairs critical life skills that everyone should learn. If you are an adult male and can't complete some of the most basic tasks without help, you will have a difficult time living on your own.
Loving yourself, being "proud" of homosexuality (I find this rather odd; why make your "sexuality" your core identity?) and knowing how to navigate the world are not mutually exclusive.
If I didn't have that formative experience of learning to time-manage and manage my own little technology addictions before going to college, college would have been really rough.
And this was very early 2000s like 2004
Not to be pedantic, but is this actually true? Parents used to send their kids to work in the factory at 10. Was that "keeping them away from bad influences"?
If you're saying something is "across every culture", I think some citation is required.
and so on
Fairy tails is essentially teaching kids to stay away from bad influences. Telling to not go into the forest alone because X/Y/Z might happen is not far from telling to not go into a bad neighbourhood or visit a certain kid. And fairy tales did happen in pretty much any culture for thousands of years.
I'd imagine that for China, US/Western Tik Tok is a literal treasure trove of useful information on the state of practically every facet of US/Western life and culture. Oh the subtle and untraceable mischief you could get up to by just turning a few knobs.
There maybe be some technical reasons for this.
But feeding into the psyops narrative, it's good practice to separate your intelligence gathering into domestic and international. Ex. CIA and FBI
Some parents. Elite schools in Manhattan and Palo Alto send home fliers that parents (or at least those I know) read.
Screen time of all types is monitored. And the children have a somewhat hilarious self-protecting pride in their control over digital intake. (Most of them. Thinking of two brothers, one who eats his veggies because he, and I quote, doesn’t like his poop going soft, and self moderates cartoon watching and phone fucking around. The other who steals my phone to watch loud videos.)
On the other hand I try to compare it to the empathy of people that were not exposed to anything like the free media on the internet. And often they don't show increased levels of empathy either, often quite to the contrary.
100% agree. Just pointing out there are parts of society where this is being messaged and socially enforced. So it isn’t a situation where we don’t know what to do. It’s one where we’re being selective about where we give a shit.
This is proved by science, of course this is not easy to communicate to a child of that age that is a culture demonstration of yours how to handle.
This is also a good recipe to plant prejudice. I'm glad parents no longer have such a strong influence.
Of course, TikTok is not vetted and you can have a lot of bad stuff there (I think, I didn't use it a whole lot) but surely this whole thing is moral panic.
Although Quintilian agreed that public schools can be a bad influence, he argued that parents were the worst influence on their own kids.
“If only we did not ourselves damage our children’s characters! We ruin their infancy by spoiling them from the start. That soft upbringing which we call indulgence destroys the sinews of mind and body. If a toddler crawls around in purple, what will he not want when he grows up? […] No wonder [why children have bad character]: it was we who taught them, they heard it all from us. They see our mistresses, our male lovers; every dinner party echoes with obscene songs; things are to be seen which it is shameful to name. […] The wretched children learn these things before they know they are wrong. This is what makes them dissolute and spineless: they do not get these vices from the schools, they import them [vices] into them [the schools].”
As an aside, a TikTok employee told me TikTok is known to trigger old maladies like anorexia etc. I was told this after mentioning that trying TikTok gave me my first nicotine cravings in several years.
A dystopia that the many have chosen to believe in who's goal is to only worsen the digital crack cocaine addiction which that is already just as bad and present in society.
We do not need society to regress any further with platforms like TikTok.
A community that controls the narrative its members hear, will very likely turn into a a society full of prejudices imposed dogmas.
With my brother I've found that if you treat younger adults and children with seriousness and listen to them as though their POV is valid, you build a trust there where they have a sense of where to discuss their doubts and insecurities so they don't fall prey to hypes and misinformation.
I mention this because I had a huge amount of influence on him growing up, almost the opposite of my experience with my parents dismissing and ridiculing my concerns. Although when I was a teen social media was mostly all chat rooms, forums, myspace, and then facebook (YouTube barely existed until the end of my adolescence) where I found people who listened- and there was the potential for them to have an influence which may have led to something very similar to this article.
Although social media now is vastly more powerful and common, it is not the sole variable. For many of these children it is filling a gap where a solid foundation of reality and context should be- with family members and social support structures who can be trusted to provide a reality check. I can see why many young ones listen to online personalities (many adults do, too) and although the medium through which they're getting these concepts (tiktok) plays a large part, it is not the root nor is avoiding tiktok the solution.
I would add, my parents moved us far from the town with the intent to take us away from bad influences of kids who hung out downtown- what this actually did is prevent me from being able to walk to the library, while my sister still found a way to get in trouble because lo and behold, her friends had cars or knew older kids with cars. The isolation they thought might be a solution proved ineffective, but I think if their parenting had been more nutruring and less abuse/neglect she might have avoided a lot of the trouble she got into.
We live in a different world as it is radically connected like never before. Taleb refers to our current age as "Extremeistan" and the previous world history as "Mediocrastan". It's about power lawn distributions and this happens overnight now across vast swaths of the population. [1]
[1] https://people.wou.edu/~shawd/mediocristan--extremistan.html
Normalize keeping children away from the obscene and stop letting grown adults normalize exposing weird shit to children, should be obvious innit
That is a very curious statement.