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Comment by slig | Hacker News Reader

What about a paid GNU/Linux distro that runs perfectly on recent Apple hardware? No drivers bullshit, just works?

Sign me up. Ubuntu has been a decent attempt at a desktop Linux, but there is no "great" laptop hardware for it. Commercial Linux so far seems to be about two things: server, and cheap crap. There does not seem to be any interest in the power user or developer who needs a workstation, despite the fact that this is the one thing desktop Linux truly shines at. And when I say workstation I mean for work, i.e. not a web/email appliance.

Now maybe the power user market just isn't big enough to cater to, or the economics around copyleft makes it impossible. I don't know. But I sure would like a portable Linux workstation that's actually good. And I'm not talking about a heavy, fat System76 laptop with 1-2 hours battery life. Mac hardware has a real edge in this area.

Unless you pick your PC carefully with the purpose of breaking Linux, it mostly works out of the box. That said, installing Linux on a Mac seems offensive, like replacing the dashboard of a Maybach with the one of a race car. Macs are a beautifully designed combination of hardware and software that may work for you. Or not.

I like Lion better than Snow Leopard, but neither works for me for work. Casual browsing and presentations are fine, but, for serious web application development, I want Linux.

Like a teenager before a date Mac seems to be entirely about looks, oh everything works well both OS and hardware but sometimes it seems looks come before function.

No separate delete or backspace keys, no multiple desktops, breathtakingly expensive hardware and software, awkward layout of files in the GUI, closing apps frustrating X doesn't close the app it minimizes it but you also have a minimize button (??), am I copying/pasting/cutting?, old text documents open behind new text documents are opened (a bug maybe or my fault).

Apple OS X Lion is nice to look at and fairly easy to use if not entirely intuitive but it;s not as perfect as some people make it out to be.

You can't blame Lion for not having a delete key! It's a hardware choice. Add a wired USB keyboard (I use the long Apple one) and there's a perfectly functional delete key, right there!

What you can blame Lion for, is the fact that Xcode4 can't even scroll a sodding code window at repeat rate. Quad-core and discrete graphics, utterly ridiculous.

Yes true it's a hardware issue not OS and yes that's one option to use an external keyboard but I don't want to drag an external keyboard around with me otherwise I wouldn't have bought a laptop.

The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete") just seems to be a glaring error along with no separate number keypad. More thought went into making it look pretty than to make it useful.

I'd sell this Macbook but I'm getting to like the swipe trackpad.

How do you want them to fit a number keypad on a laptop? Fn + Delete does what you want.

The speakers (on a 17" Macbook Pro) could be relocated, they're not much use where they are when I type since my hands block the sound partially anyway why not move then and expand the keyboard?

No, pressing the Delete key makes the cursor go back a space. On Linux and Windows Delete pulls the text in from the right towards the cursor deleting it.

I know Apple Macs are different but it seems odd why they wouldn't keep similar methods of using the keyboard, they made Darwin based on BSD (yes?) they obviously didn't keep the Delete and Backspace or does BSD not have Backspace only Delete?

As I said I'm new to Mac but triple booting would be nicer if 1 of the 3 OS versions didn't have a keyboard that was so weird.

You didn't read what I had typed.

Hold Fn and then hit Delete. Problem solved.

I did and before that I even mentioned it first in a different reply above since I knew it would be brought up.

Two keys on opposite ends of the keyboards requiring two key presses not exactly ergonomic.

A numeric keyboard could, in theory, fit on a 17" MBP, but that would make the computer ugly. If you are fine with that, you can get something from HP or Sony for substantially less than a MPB.

> The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete")

It's not a "glaring error" that it isn't labeled exactly like a PC. Apple keyboards have labeled the keys "delete" and "return" instead of "backspace" and "enter" since probably before the days that IBM labeled them "backspace" and "enter".

"breathtakingly expensive hardware and software"

Where can you get something considerably cheaper than the Macbook Airs that sport:

- 128GB SSD (13")

- 1440x900 (13") display

- 4GB of RAM

- Core i5

- operating system included

- thin, light, and have quality construction

For £1099 including taxes?

This is kinda sad, but flying to NY and buying it on 5th Avenue would probably get you exactly the same computer for much less!

*Aside from the keycaps of course.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230... is such a thing, and at $1099 USD, it's nearly half of your quoted price. Unfortunately, it has a widescreen which has more pixels than you asked for, but somehow I don't think that's a bad thing.

It comes with Windows, but if you want a real operating system, you can install any Linux you like on there. Or a BSD. Go for it.

Also, I was going to just answer "mu" to your question, and be done with it. Macbooks don't have quality construction; that's why their hinges keep falling apart after a year or two of actual use. It's been a problem since the Powerbook days.

So, uh, yeah. Apple products are too fuckin' expensive.

(Oh, and there were a handful of VAIOs that also fit this criteria, but let's be honest, VAIOs are not real computers.)

The price you're quoting is for the US. I suspect his price has UK VAT or something added in because a similarly spec'd MacBook Air is only $1299 in the US. So it is not "double", we're talking about $200 - an 18% price difference.

Furthermore, the Air starts at $999. It's hardly gratuitously expensive. In fact, it is extremely hard to beat in terms of value-per-dollar.

Unfortunately Asus has the worst support ever. If anything breaks on that laptop, you're SOL. I would also question Asus's build quality as well. I don't know about that netbook in particular, but their EeePCs aren't very well built.

> Macbooks don't have quality construction; that's why their hinges keep falling apart after a year or two of actual use. It's been a problem since the Powerbook days.

Uh, what? I've had two MacBooks that have seen continuous use since 2006 and 2008, respectively, and this never happened to me. In fact, the aluminum MacBook (not even unibody) is in pretty fantastic shape, which is quite unlike every single non-Apple product I have ever owned and used for such a long period of time.

I am an Asus owner (my third laptop in a row), and am actually considering getting a ZenBook, BUT it has no dockstation, while the MBA has THUNDERBOLT, which combined with a Thunderbolt display gives you an amazing configuration. Don't trust me, go look it up:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-dis...

http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo...

And here's the same product from a UK BASED high street retailer:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/asus-ux31e-ultrabook-silver-11...

Price: £999

A "breathtaking" 10% price difference which I'm happy to swallow for Thunderbolt, my preferred OS, and much better (walk in!) customer support.

(Also my late 2008 aluminium Macbook is still going strong with solid hinges to boot!)

FYI: multiple desktops are built in OS X (and in my opinion it's the best implementation there is).

On the small apple keyboards pressing function-delete will act the same as a Windows delete key.

When's the last time you used one? There've been multiple desktops ("Spaces") since 2006.

And I've never had any confusion between copying, pasting, and cutting. Ever. Unless you're talking about expecting that weird-ass Windows behavior where you "cut" files to copy them around? Why's "open two windows and drag stuff to move, maybe with alt held down to copy" so hard?

OSX makes a big distinction between "quitting an app" and "closing all document windows" I really LIKE that I can have a big app like Illustrator loaded but dormant with no open windows to bother me.

Last time I used a Mac? As I said this is my first one ever.

My comparisons are the different behaviour between Mac, Linux and Windows or specifically how Windows and Linux are similar but Apple OS X is just slightly (annoyingly) different.

I right-click on a file there isn't any visible/intuitive option to move not copy that file to another location other than just copy it. Don't you find that weird? Forget keyboard shortcuts there are probably hundreds for each OS that nobody ever uses or knows about, in fact most people I know at work are shocked when shown CTRL+X, CTRL+V, CTRL+C. Yes Command+C copies, Command+V pastes but Command+X does nothing except play a mellow jazzy error sound.

I can't even delete a file using Delete key now you have to admit that's screwy! Pick a file, click to select press Delete - nothing happens.

Who knows maybe I'll get used it to that's my point for getting a Mac I'm just amazed at OS X's awkward differences between Windows and Linux. Different isn't bad it's just different.

You complain OSX is different from your previous experience. That's unreasonable. Macs have always been about simplicity and consistency building a predictable user experience.

My experience with Macs is, like I said before, as a casual user with occasional work done in terminal sessions and Emacs (which is consistent on every computer I have), but you can trust me on that - the differences between the environments will get burned into your brain soon enough and you'll be able to easily switch between contexts.

> No separate delete or backspace keys,

Maybe not on Apple's laptops, but Apple's full size keyboards have it. Also, fn + "delete" will have the effect of deleting a character in front of the current cursor.

  > no multiple desktops,

Mission control has multiple desktops, or are you conveniently forgetting that. Also, Windows and multiple desktops?

  > breathtakingly expensive hardware and software,

Mac OS X at $30, then iWork at $79, iLife at $79. Should we compare to Windows? (comparing to Linux and free everything is always going to be expensive).

  > awkward layout of files in the GUI,

Eh, what?

  > closing apps frustrating X doesn't close the app it minimizes it but you also have a minimize button (??),

No, one closes the current context. Lets say you have 10 Word documents open, you can close the single instance using the red button, if you use the yellow button it minimizes it down to the dock. The two buttons have very different behaviors.

When you have Microsoft Word open on Windows, you can have multiple documents open as well, when you close one you don't want to close all of them, well on Mac OS X when you close the last one it won't quit the full application, whereas in Windows it will. Mac OS X Lion has solved this by allowing applications to specify that they are no longer in use and when required they will be quit.

  > am I copying/pasting/cutting?,

Cmd + C == Copy Cmd + V == Paste Cmd + X == Cut

Clearly you are using it in a different context ...

That's not true. Power management (sleep/hibernate) is very flaky in Linux, and when it fails it crashes the machine.

You need to pick your PC carefully for compatibility with Linux.

Linux is great for workstation/server-class hardware and use cases.

This is so true. I have a work-issued laptop running Linux on mainstream hardware. Sleeping or hibernating my laptop fails to sleep about 10% of the time. Waking my laptop has a 90% chance of failing to detect my external monitor, yet the window manager happily continues to display my login screen and application windows off screen where the external monitor should be.

> That said, installing Linux on a Mac seems offensive, like replacing the dashboard of a Maybach with the one of a race car.

It also works less well than just installing it on PC hardware. Apple hardware isn't meant to work well with any other OS, and oftentimes, it doesn't. Even if the drivers for other vendors' hardware aren't perfect, in my experience, they usually work work better than the Linux drivers for Apple's hardware.

W/ smaller buttons/fonts...

Sure, would be nice to have option.

Why do you insist on paying for a free thing?

Your time and stress are not unlimited resources (and therefore not "free"). Being able to buy a Linux system that's guaranteed to work (and continue to) out of the box on certain hardware (or better yet, come pre-installed on that certain hardware) would be worth a fair amount of money to many people.

But... nobody can guarantee that. Have you never used paid software?

I mean sure, I can take your money. I can promise you things. So what?

And why the hell was I downmodded for asking a legit question? Is this place falling into reddit land?

Yes they can. They can focus on a specific model, even work directly with the OEM (or be the OEM), put a $60 price tag on the box, and have a warranty that says "We guarantee that this Linux distro will work out of the box on model X; we'll keep all the software updated for a year; you can call us if it breaks; and we'll refund you if we can't help." If no one can make that sort of guarantee for money; why should I even bother trying to do it myself?

Anyone buying that would be a complete idiot.

So yes, it might work.

I mean sure, I can take your money. I can promise you things. So what?

What do you mean so what? People can always go back on their contracts, does that mean nobody should do anything ever?

If you're promising to support, say, Ubuntu 11.10 on a Blah Blah GX23921r3i laptop, then the 'so what' means that if I can't get wireless working, I'll contact your support and you will, because you've promised that hardware and that OS can work and that you know how to make it do so. It means I can trust X hardware and software to make a usable combination without having to gamble that I hit a compatible X driver or Y setting on my own, or put up with a laptop which can't wake from sleep, or whatever.

And why the hell was I downmodded for asking a legit question? Is this place falling into reddit land?

No whinging about downvotes - it could be someone on a mobile device misclicking for all we know.

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