The Best iPhone | Hacker News Reader

The Best iPhone

notes.ghed.in

573 pointsrpgbr473 comments

I knew I wasn't the only one fond of small, cheap-but-great phones! :)

Btw, this is my first post in English. I cover tech here in Brazil for +10 years and run a +9 years old independent, self-sustainable publication written in Portuguese. Now, I decided to give it a shot in another language, despite still feeling uncomfortable with my English. (I hope I haven't misspelled anything!)

If you enjoyed this brief iPhone SE review, may I ask you to subscribe to my blog's newsletter or its RSS feed? They are both on site's footer. No spam ever, unsubscribe whenever you want.

Thanks!

Your English reads very well. I would not have known it wasn't your first language if you hadn't mentioned that you were from Brazil.

Great post! I loved this reading. Btw, I'm Brazilian too. :D

It was cool to see your name when reading the post. I follow Manual do Usuário on Twitter and I liked it a lot. The podcast is great as well. Congrats on your work!

I am also very happy with my iPhone SE 2nd gen. I only migrated from Android to iOS after they launched a cheap and small model.

Also a huge fan of the iPhone SE and will keep buying them until they stop making them. Don’t take my thumb print away from me!!! I write a lot and it’s slightly faster to unlock via thumb (when it works) than face. Also it works in the dark, eg, when you think of something in the middle of the night or when your face is covered.

The only way to beat thumbprint is authentication via nfc, for example using a biometric chip in your hand, but that’s not palatable for most ;).

Posted on a SE gen 2

FaceID also works in the dark and works with masks. Also works when you have gloves on :)

Well, some iPhones work with masks — my girlfriend's iPhone 11 doesn't.

Gloves aren't necessary here :) I live in the (allegedly) Brazil's coldest state capital, Curitiba, and you can get through winter here without them.

> Gloves aren't necessary here

Gloves are used in more scenarios than just cold weather, motorcycle gloves for one example.

Wearing motorcycle gloves would make it impossible to touch anything on your screen anyway?

Most gloves accumulate enough dirt over time for touch to start awkwardly working. Some newer ones have a layer applied to the index finger to make it work.

Gloves are not the big problem, my experience is that FaceID is useless when motorcycling because of the helmet.

> FaceID

We are talking about phones without FaceID here. This article and thread are referencing the iPhone SE.

> my experience is that FaceID is useless when motorcycling because of the helmet.

Seems to work fine for me when opening the visor. Do you mean with it closed or open it’s not working for you?

I wear gloves when I ride my bicycle. Unlocking it is necessary to access certain functions that you can invoke with Siri. Even without Siri, most gloves these days are designed to work with capacitive touch.

You're right. Anyway, I don't work or do anything that calls for gloves — haven't use them in… I don't know, 20+ years?

In those scenarios, might as well go with https://www.catphones.com/en-us/cat-s22-flip/

Face ID doesn't work very well in the dark, and it's especially awful if you're lying on your side using an iPad in bed in the dark, since the angle is wrong.

Touch ID was markedly superior in contexts like this, in addition to being easier to activate.

FaceId works perfectly in pitch darkness. I just tried it.

Never had a problem with FaceID in the dark and I lie in bed on my side

It works perfectly fine in dark. I use it every night. It uses a very different tech than just a simple camera.

FaceID works great in the dark (I'm always surprised at how well) and at angles (as long as I'm holding the phone to match the angle of my face, which seems pretty natural to me).

Phone yes. iPad that you are not holding in-hand the entire time so it directly faces you, not so much.

Well, good point. I have a Mini 6, and it doesn't have face ID (and I don't use it in bed).

I used to have my phone unlocked before it was even out of my pocket. FaceID at its fastest (I have a 13 Pro) feels slow.

I haven't had a TouchID phone since 2018 and I still miss it. It never made me wait.

I rarely even think about FaceID whereas I had to actually do something for TouchID. Better experience for me and many others.

You don't think about it even when you see the spinning lock?

Finding the button with my thumb in my pocket was just impulse. Phone unlocked by the time I'm looking at it.

I have to start looking at my phone, watch the screen wake up, FaceID takes a minimum of a half-second? A full second? Feels like an eternity. Longer if I have a mask on but that's only recent, it used to not work with a mask at all.

I think that's my problem. There's nothing I can do to make it faster, I just have to wait for my face to be at the right angle so it can scan me. With my fingerprint, I was fully in control of how fast the unlocking process would be.

FaceID doesn't work if I yawn. Or if I sneeze. Or am squinting in the sunlight. Or if the phone is on my desk, fully readable, but not pointed at my face.

And, yes, all of these cases happened in the past month. I miss the TouchID. It was simple and I can't recall it ever failing me.

But doesn't work with sunglasses.

Yes it does.

Not for me. Looks like it might work if I disable "require attention" (weather has been pretty bad this summer, so I don't have my shades close by to test).

I trained it on my face with and without sunglasses. Maybe it has to do with polarization?

FaceID sounds way more reliable for you than it is for me. It can't recognise me if I change my glasses.

FaceID definitely didn't work with masks.

Your english is great. I couldn't even tell it was written by a non-native speaker. Keep writing! You have interesting things to say.

I would go for cheaper phone but I really value good screen. I read books on my phone. I don’t like owning multiple mobile devices just to read books

I'm not sure where you live and what locale you want, but depending on the LTE bands of your region, the Hisense A9 has a fantastic eink screen. It's a Chinese OS with at parts janky english translation.

Read a review, that A9 seems fantastic. Made by Nokia or similar and I'd give it a go.

I had no idea. Your English is better than a lot of Web posts from Americans, who can't even spell "too."

While I agree that the SE is Apple's best offering for the money, the new one fails hard in one main way: ergonomics. While the original SE (which I still use) has flat sides, the current SE went back to the dumb rounded slippery edges. This is a vestige of Jony Ive stupidity: make the phone ever-thinner, then round the edges so it wants to flip sideways out of your grip at all times. Oh, and make sure the screen isn't recessed at all, so when it does flip out of your grip it is sure to break.

Notice that Apple returned to the flat sides on all of its current phones except the SE. It's almost as if they wanted make the SE less appealing.

The lack of a Home button on the new iPhones is a massive pain in the ass and a stupid regression, mainly for the lack of Touch ID but also for app-switching.

Thanks!

Yeah, I also prefer the flat sides (miss my old iPhone 5), but SE's rounded one isn't much a problem for me. Maybe I'm too zealous, but in seven years using this type of phone, I've never dropped one. (They dropped for another reasons, such as sliding from a uneven table thanks to the glass back. It survived without any scratch, anyway.)

I would agree - the round edges are a PITA. The glass back makes it very slippery as well. I'm using an 8 Plus still as it has TouchID (I find FaceID far too creepy) and a large screen, which helps with my failing eyesight. It would be excellent to have something like this but with flat edges.

You spelled "misspelled" correctly, which earns a point in my book because (in a profound display of irony) a lot of native speakers misspell that one!

“Misspelt” is the usual UK/Commonwealth spelling, if that’s the spelling you’re referring to. “Misspelled” is the usual North American variant. Both are correct!

Not the person to whom you’re replying, but I think they mean many English speakers misspell the word with only one “s”: “mispell” (sic), “mispelled” (sic), etc.

Or three?

Lol at the first time an American tried to correct me on this.

Your English is excellent, and I was surprised to learn that it’s not your first language!

still rocking my iPhone se 1st gen (though I painstakingly had to change the battery on my own at the beginning of the pandemic...)

it's even smaller than the newer ones!

Only thing I like about my 2nd iphone SE bought this year (had the 2020 version) is that it has Touch ID.

Other then it's trash with low battery life and at times becomes non-responsive like the SE 2020 did.

What is wrong with Apple .. every other smartphone has touch id system. Its been five years and Touch ID for me is the best UX. It is grab my phone without even looking at it and it's open. Compared to grab it & swipe up while looking at it which is two steps vs. one. Those two steps while driving is dangerous (chide me all you want cause you use your phone when you drive too .. either sometimes, to a little or a lot)!

Your English is indistinguishable from that of the top 10% of writers or so. I had no reason to believe you are not a native speaker until you linked to your page with photo samples written in Portuguese.

> I had no reason to believe you are not a native speaker

"Now, I decided to give it a shot in another language" and "may I ask you to subscribe to my blog's newsletter or its RSS feed? They are both on site's footer." both read non-native to me; I'd expect a native to say "Now, I've decided..." and "They are both in/on the site's footer".

But I agree with everyone else that rpgbr's English is excellent, more than adequate to publish English-language journalism. It is extremely difficult to get all the details of a foreign language right every time, and in most cases it's not a standard worth reaching or worrying about.

(And if you do worry about it... practice is the best way to get there.)

I want an iPhone SE sized phone with something similar to my Ulefone Power Armor 13's battery life.

The Power Armor 13 weights nearly half a kilogram, and because of this I almost never drip it - you certainly know you've got hold of it, and the battery lasts so long I sometimes forget it needs charging till I get a 15% warning somewhere around day four to six.

Your writing is excellent. The grammar is almost flawless (see below). Beyond that, I enjoyed your writing style as well -- strong opening, thoughtful variations in paragraph length and sentence structure, and generally concise and focused.

If you are interested in some small feedback to improve a little more: the final three sentences in the article were the only ones where I saw something that could be improved.

> I have already argued in the past that I prefer this iPhone model over any newer one, Face ID capable.

I'm pretty sure this is grammatically correct as-is. (English is funny like that...) Having said that, the more natural-sounding way for a native-speaker would be to lose the appositive and avoid trying to turn "Face ID" into an adjective. So it would be something like: "I have already argued in the past that I prefer this iPhone model over any newer one with Face ID."

> It is perhaps the closest to a perfect gadget I have ever used — no wonder, it is the third “same” device I buy in seven years (before, the iPhone 6S in 2015 and the iPhone 8 in 2017).

I'm pretty sure the verb tenses are technically correct, but the last bit is not how a native speaker would write it, and there's an extraneous comma. Instead of saying 'no wonder, it is the the third "same" device I buy in seven years,' a more native-speaker way of writing it would be: 'no wonder it's the third "same" device I've bought in seven years.'

(EDIT: I was thinking about this a little more because something about the sequence of words "third same device" still didn't sound quite natural. Iterating, I think it could sound even more natural like: 'no wonder I've bought the "same" device three times over the last seven years.')

> If, despite all the rumors, in five years there is a “5th generation iPhone SE” with this same look, but updated internals, it will most likely be my next phone.

This sentence is solid and native-sounding as-is. A professional editor, though, might object to the overwhelming number of commas (even though all the commas are grammatically correct!). They might suggest eliminating some of the repetitive clauses and moving things around a bit to make the sentence flow more smoothly. The end result might be something like this: 'If, despite all the rumors, there's a "5th generation iPhone SE" in five years with the same look and another round of updated internals, it will most likely be my next phone.'

I hope that's all helpful and not too nitpicky. Like I said, your writing is fantastic as it is! I'm looking forward to reading more.

Great reply. I agree that the writing in the post is excellent. While we're giving constructive feedback I'd add this sentence:

> I cover tech here in Brazil for +10 years and run a +9 years old independent,

It should be past tense "I've covered", and in English we do everything backwards so 10+ and 9+ are more natural. So I'd change that to:

I've covered tech here in Brazil for 10+ years and run a 9+ years old independent,

> no wonder, it is the third “same” device I buy in seven years

> no wonder it's the third "same" device I've bought in seven years

> no wonder I've bought the "same" device three times over the last seven years

I liked your critique a lot: showing progressively better sentences and explaining why each is better. As a native English speaker learning Brazilian Portuguese, I have the inverse problem of the OP. I'd like to find a book or app that does more or less what you did —— start with a moderately difficult sentence in Portuguese the way an English speaker might say it, then progressively improve it while explaining the reasoning along the way.

Maybe such a thing exists for people learning English; I can confidently say that there is an order of magnitude more resources for people going from Portuguese to English than the other way around.

Oh, good luck with that! You've probably heard this, but Portuguese grammar is super hard. Except for teachers, enthusiasts, and academics, I guess nobody here really knows, let alone explain most of our grammar rules.

Speaking for myself, as a journalist who've written for major outlets in Brazil, I get away with writing (mostly) correctly based on feeling (reading a lot also helps a lot!).

That's a great feedback! Thanks for it, I'll edit the post :)

I was considering commenting how much I enjoyed your writing style as I was reading the article. I had no idea you were a non-native speaker.

Your English is generally quite good. The one thing I'll note is that I've not seen native speakers use notation like "+10 years" in the context you do. Generally we'd write that as "10+ years" read as "ten-plus years" or ">10 years" read as "over ten years".

I suppose more people would read ">10 years" as "more than 10 years"?

How would you interpret “+/- 10 years”?

I don’t think they are comparable really.

10+ years means over ten years.

+/- 10 years is an addition/subtraction and making a range.

+10 years could be interpreted as 10 years in the future, and makes perfect sense in that context, but -10 years for the past seems weird. I'm not sure why.

As a margin of error.

"this tree was planted 200 years ago, +/- 10 years" -> the tree was planted between 190 and 210 years ago.

"this comet will next be seen in 100 years, +/- 10" -> The comet will visible between 90 and 110 years from now.

Yeah, interesting. In The Netherlands it is commonly used to mean "more or less", or "approximately", unless it is used in formulas.

For “approximately 10 years” I would note it as ~10. Native Australian English speaker.

In English, "give or take".

Thanks for the tip! I guess I use “+10 years” because of how we say in Portuguese (“mais de 10 anos”, as the “more than” comes first than the “10 years”).

I love my SE 2 - I've had it for ~2.5 yrs now and I'll most likely have it for another 2+. It's a very fast phone, and I like the relatively small form factor compared to most other phones these days that all seem to have colossal screens and are comically large when held up to the ear.

I'll also take TouchID any day over FaceID. The one thing that would get me to upgrade before 2+ yrs from now (other than unexpected failure of my SE 2) is a 13 Mini-like iPhone with touchID.

Great english, mate. Rock on!

Try iPhone 13 mini!

SE would have been my choice if Apple never released this model.

Mini is slightly smaller than SE and it's a crucial factor for me. And it also has more usable screen and where initially I was wary of FaceID - I don't miss the button! :]

I hope Apple continues with SE+mini merged model for the future.

The iPhone 13 Mini has those sharp pocket destroying edges though.

Are you for real? The edges are not sharp at all.

Not razor sharp but sharp enough to leave marks on your trousers after some usage. Here is an example:

https://i.imgur.com/HZNUoVd.jpg

The iPhone SE has completely rounded edges which is more pocket friendly in this regard.

Looks like it gave those jeans some character!

You're talking about iPhone SE2, probably. I'm still using original iPhone SE, and its shape is on every pair of jeans I had in those 5 years.

Well I am certainly not carrying a device with two fragile glass surfaces without a protection case :( So it doesn’t matter at this point.

> And it also has more usable screen

Funnily, after playing with both for a couple minutes in the store, I decided on an SE exactly because of 13's screen. Because of rounded corners, the way it rendered content sometimes became downright ugly and didn't actually grant any extra space: http://puu.sh/JdxXl/985552f316.jpg

That's true in that specific context (most websites in Safari) in that specific orientation. The extra screen real estate you get in native apps, or even Safari in portrait orientation is not nothing.

This is an exception. In almost every other use case the mini will give you more screen estate.

I agree. The mini is smaller but has a larger screen than the SE. Face ID works really well.

I just hope the 13 has better battery life than the 12. My 12 mini drains half the battery on idle within 24 hours if mobile data is enabled.

I appreciate that's a fair concern, perfectly legitimate, but how far we have come that only having half a charge after 24 hours is disappointing.

That's half a charge after leaving the phone idle for the whole 24 hours. It's disappointing compared to previous generations of iPhone and even compared to much cheaper Android phones.

Any decent phone these days could easily last 3 days if left idling.

How's the battery life? My wife got a 12 mini and while I love the size, the battery is abysmal and barely lasts a day for her.

I use the 13 mini and am satisfied. The battery life is good, which is important… but I actually prefer touchID to faceID. The reason, I guess, is more consistent success and no accidental unlocking. It’s also nice to be able to unlock a phone on your desk without picking it up.

As another point of data, I use the 13 mini and am dissatisfied with the battery life. Listen to a podcast on your commute and watch tiktok on your lunch break and you'll be charging at 5PM.

As a motorcyclist I can not even use FaceID with a full face helmet and typing my access phrase is not an option either so I can only use touchID.

At the cost of some potentially reduced security, I've found that my iPhone will unlock while I'm wearing a full-face helmet as long as the chin bar isn't too high on my face, and the "unlock with a mask on" feature is enabled. It's hit or miss, but I usually give it a shot before pulling off a glove to passcode-unlock. It's worth trying again, if you haven't in a while.

Thanks, will give the "unlock with a mask on" feature a shot.

> As a motorcyclist I can not even use FaceID with a full face helmet […]

This is why I like my Shoei Neotec (I) modular / flip-up helmet. Especially since I got it 40% off when then Neotec IIs were announced. :)

The integrated sun visor is also nice.

I considered the 13 Mini, gave up due to two things: it's (really) expensive here in Brazil, and its cameras (or its main camera) isn't noticeable better than the one on SE. I couldn't justify spending the extra money for pretty much the same phone plus some niceties.

i'm not sure which one i have but i know i have hte mini form factor and i love it. My wife and oldest son have the gigantic tablet form factor and it feels like i may as well be using an ipad hah. (and they hate using my phone too)

edit: settings -> general says it's an iphone 12 mini

Am I cheap, poor, frugal or outdated to find it mildly funny US$400-450+tx are considered cheap phones nowadays?

Not that I mind as I'm able to find good value (in my opinion and for my needs) in second-hand markets for electronics (couldn't be more satisfied with my $100 Pixel 3a and aging T430s laptop), I just find it impressive how much price references have shifted over time as flagship phones ran from $400-500 well into the $1-1.5k range[0]. Maybe I wouldn't be so confused about it if I understood what use people have for their phones to hold so much compute. Aside from the undeniably sick cameras, it seems to me like most people have supercomputers to browse social medias as AAA-mobile-gaming doesn't seem prevalent at all here (AFAIK it is in Asia).

Millennial yelling at clouds, signing off.

0: https://fdn.gsmarena.com/imgroot/news/21/09/iphone-13-steve-...

I don’t know about everyone else, but as a professional in the film/video world having a new-ish (I upgrade every 3 years or so) iPhone actually helps me do my job.

The real draw is the camera. The ease of taking videos, especially of your kids, is worth the price tag for many. And the camera is a differentiating factor between the lower and higher tier models. Is the state-of-the-art camera needed? Debatable, but once family and memories are involved all economic rationality goes out the window.

but... your pixel was more than $100 new. the phone you use does not normally fit into the category you describe. the only part that makes it work is the "second hand," bit.

cheap/expensive is relative, and $400 is cheap for a phone (for north american audiences).

fwiw, i find even pixel phones to be sort of slow after a couple years into software updates, mostly between multitasking/app switching. so I think that the compute actually doesn't really scale well into the future as you imply, which is a separate unfortunate fact.

> i find even pixel phones to be sort of slow after a couple years into software updates

I assume that's because they're Google's software updates. Removing all Google apps, and most phones are fast. My BlackBerry KeyOne, with its midrange chipset, is still fast five years after it was released. Hell, I wanted a smaller form factor for a few days, and threw my SIM into my Nexus 5. Changing apps, installing updates, and navigating with OSM were all just as fast as 2013, when the phone was new. I even flipped through a few Tiktok videos to try it out - and while the first video stuttered a bit, everything after that was still quick.

Google Apps, like Google Play Services, the Play Store, and especially Maps, all seem to expand over time to consume all available resources. OS updates don't slow down your phone - the software you just want to run (and are pushed heavily to keep up-to-date) simply keeps getting heavier.

I mean, in the case of phone comparisons, what you want to benchmark is the phone with it's default services and apps (which is what people use).

If you can modify those, then what's the comparison on? How fast it boots to no apps or services running?

Sadly Maps is the killer phone app for me. Otherwise I'd try harder to get rid of the google stuff on my phone.

Yeah, I switched to iOS but still keep Google Maps around for the times when Apple Maps doesn't quite work the way it should. I'm still 90-95% Apple Maps but sometimes I have to call for backup.

Google also works better for "browsing" the neighborhood to see what businesses are nearby.

If I removed all Google apps, my phone would be like a paperweight to me. Maps, Photos, Calendar, Gmail, Drive, Books, YouTube and others are all critical to my workflows, and even just for navigating the world and taking photos in general.

You can find replacements for all of those through f-droid. You do lose a little bit of functionality and/or polish with those alternative apps though.

That's the problem though, those f-droid alternatives are nowhere near Google apps' functionality. Believe me, I've tried, and I've always gone back to GApps.

There's no replacement for Google Maps and Google Photos in the current world IMO.

That feels hyperbolic, but any alternative to Map that I've seen were either:

- strongly platform limited (e.g. only works on android/iOS, and you lose bookmarks, preferences, or even finding consistent info when using any over device)

- use inconsistent apps (e.g. OSM will have different clients on different platforms, which crosses the first point)

- be straight bad (e.g. Apple Maps in low population areas)

- have little to no third data integration ("what's the website of that business I'm looking at")

Photos is another can of worm, as outside of Apple Photos and Flickr every service gaining popularity just died a horrible death. Then Apple Photos is heavily platform limited, and Flickr isn't great for personal photo maintenance and sharing for many reasons, not going into the Yahoo part of it.

These two products have I think a stronger stand than Gmail or even Google Search, and they are the closest to someone's day to day reality.

Yes, excellent points.

And then Google Photos works together with Google Maps Timeline to show you pics taken on a given day in a certain place. Theoretically possible on any platform since photos have appropriate metadata, but practically only available from Google.

>not going into the Yahoo part of it.

Flickr hasn't been owned by Yahoo for a number of years at this point. I've had a paid Flickr account for quite a few years but I admit I don't use it a lot these days.

I find Google Maps is in a different category than Photos. I use Photos from time to time for image identification but that's pretty much it. (And there are a lot of alternatives for that these days.)

Flickr is now independent, but it was part of Yahoo for so long I’d guess most people having all their photos in it probably used a Yahoo account. I’ll confess I tried accessing mine after a years long hiatus and it didn’t work (endless password resets)

On alternatives, which storage/sync and management service do you see working at the same level as Photos ? I’m genuinely curious and would move if it matches up (Basically, what is the Gmail->Fastmail like go to alternative for Photos ?)

Image identification looks to me like a very fringe use for a photo storage service, or perhaps you’re referring to searching all your photos for specific keywords ?

PS: Reminds me of the photos services curse from “The Prompt” podcast, where every time they’d present a competitive photo service, like Everpix, it would go out of business or something horrible happen to it a few months in.

I use Flickr for a curated subset of my photos but it's honestly been a while since I've uploaded anything.

I have Apple Photos but only what I shoot on my iPhone.

Primarily though I organize and edit photos locally with Lightroom Classic. (And, in addition to local backups, it's backed up by Backblaze along with all my other files.

I wasn't trying to compare second-hand price vs new, I just added that since I didn't want to come off as complaining when I'm not really concerned by the cost of new phones (or electronics for that matter), it was just an observation. If anything, I'm thankful for consumerism enabling me to buy from an ample supply of quality second-hand electronics.

>cheap/expensive is relative

I guess that's kind of my point if there was one. Today's cheap smartphones are at the price of flagship phones from <10 years ago. I find it noticeable how far goalposts have moved when it comes to what cheap (let alone expensive) means for smartphones. Which is just a remark and not a criticism, consumers command markets as it should be and I'm more than aware my habits are not extrapolatable.

Through luck or minor hacks, I have been able to keep my phone costs less than $100 a year over the last decade. The nexus and pixel lines have almost always offered a new phone around the $300 mark (black friday, trade in, some promo, etc.) and they last for about 3 years.

We are arguably in a tech golden age where all this cool stuff is cheap now.

Look at video cards. Counting for inflation those things were expensive. Then they got cheap. Now they’re gonna get expensive again ( look at the proposed prices for 4000 series GeForce cards ).

I think we are eventually going to see more expensive phones simply because people won’t really need to buy new ones anymore.

You are not. And the camera in the pixel 6a is the same as it ever was and they made it worse by replacing the rock solid back fingerprint reader with a junk "under the glass tesla AI is coming next year" reader.

Flagships are now so much better than when they costed $400. But don’t worry because there currently are phones that cost $200 and are better than what you got for $400 years ago, so you’re covered too.

> Am I cheap, poor, frugal or outdated to find it mildly funny US$400-450+tx are considered cheap phones nowadays?

I can’t speak to whether you’re any of those, but I can say this. Anyone spending significantly more than that (I’m included in this category) is either:

- Buying it for the quality of its camera (me again, not that I’m an especially avid photographer; I almost exclusively take pics of my pup)

- Some mix of spending too much or not realizing they’re in one or more categories below (some large majority, I’d wager)

- Doing a cost benefit analysis that favors spending more upfront for a longer-term investment (me again again, although my phone ownership lifecycle has shortened significantly; it’s still beneficial because my hand-me-downs benefit loved ones)

- Married to the software (me once again, much moreso on mobile than on general purpose computers these days)

- Enthralled by compute power or some other hardware particularity (o_0 I’m probably just getting old but I mostly don’t get this… okay I’m amused that my phone is more powerful in many ways than its current high-end laptop companion)

- cares about SW updates

I think that falls squarely under “married to the software”? At least it was part of the spirit of I intended.

You have to admit that there is some gap between "I want the latest re-rounded corners on app icons" (which fits into that category neatly) and "I don't want 4 years of unpatched 0-days still open on my phone" (which I'd argue does not).

I don’t know why I have to admit this, but sure I’ll grant it. I don’t think the former is a reasonable characterization of “married to the software”, I think it’s a caricature.

The first generation iPhone from 2016 can still be updated with the latest iOs version.

I think you're missing a big one that applies to most people I know:

- Locked into two year contracts where a phone upgrade is "free" every two years, but they are spending $100+ per month for that "free" phone

As a Canadian, I have a $50 plan with 12 gb of data (pretty good deal for here). If I wanted to get a new iPhone 13, I'd have to spend $300 up front (would be offset if i had an old device to trade in), plus an additional $33/month for two years, plus choose a plan that was at least $60 base. So I'd get a "free" phone every two years (as long as I had an old device to trade in every two years, and paid twice as much per month).

I won't do these things, so I have just replaced my $300 all-in phone from 4 years ago with a $400 all-in phone.

That definitely feels like it falls under the spending too much category, but I’ve only once financed a phone (should be mine pretty soon I think!) and hope I never need to again.

That's fair, I just find that the number of people who fall into that specific source of "spending too much" makes it important to specify. Most providers bury the actual phone cost somehow, and only focus on the monthly total - normalizing people spending $100/month on cell services

Your description of that deal doesn't really add up. If you're putting down $300 and paying $33/month, that's just buying a phone.

Yes, but if you have a two year old iPhone then they give you a $300 credit for trading it in. And you're already paying $95 a month (to cover your two year old phone), so the monthly cost ends up being the same. And the only alternative the salespersons will mention is buying the iPhone outright for $1200. So people think they are getting a deal (when they're actually just financing a phone over two years with an overpriced plan)

So, are phones actually more powerful than computers? I know obviously there's a scale, but my understanding is that x86 stuff is an entirely different league than anything built for mobile. I wasn't really acutely aware of this until I started building some small form factor entertainment systems. After doing some research and testing I was getting far better performance out of old model x86 Chromeboxes than even the latest mobile hardware.

A15 in the iPhone SE is far faster than any atom-class CPU which is what you typically find in a chromebook. On JavaScript benchmarks it trades blows with 12th gen Intel laptop CPUs.

My iPhone 13 Pro Max absolutely beats my 2019 MacBook Pro 16” on several benchmarks. Subjectively it also very readily remains useful and responsive for many tasks when the same laptop doesn’t for the same task.

I have a rule that I spend the most money on things I use the most.

Mattresses, phones, computers, desks, chairs, etc. Is a thousand dollars for a phone a lot? Well, depends on how you look at it. I use it for more than an hour a day, every day, so a 1000 dollars over two years for a device like that doesn't seem insane to me. Comes out to about a $1.40 a day.

I have no rule but my heuristic is to spare no expense on things that matter most to me, but to research them if I’m not already sure what I want. That research often factors in price because “spare no expense” can be absurd when it’s blind. Multiple orders of magnitude absurd when you’re not paying attention and think you have that lack of attention available.

I think that’s a good thing to consider when making a purchase, but it’s also very one-dimensional.

To me 1000$ for a phone is a lot because it’s only marginally better than a 500$ phone.

Also phones are big liability. Odds are a good mattress or chair will last ages. A phone lasts 2 to 3 years generally.

Being taxed $1.40 a day EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE doesn't sound insignificant.

To own my own pocket supercomputer that also functions as a high quality photo/video camera? I'd gladly pay that "tax". It's about the equivalent of one meal a month in a restaurant.

None of your reasons cover the hordes of people buying the pro models when there’s absolutely no reason to. Especially in India. I live in an upper middle class apartment complex and half the folks living here have a 13 Pro. It costs 60% more if not higher here than in the US as well. You have to be in the 99.5th percentile of salary earners to cover the price of the phone in a single months salary.

It’s all about image and prestige and that’s one of the biggest reasons nowadays if you ask me.

> None of your reasons cover the hordes of people buying the pro models when there’s absolutely no reason to.

I’m fairly certain the second item does?

expensive smartphones are Veblen goods [1] by now, they mostly make no sense, but they will be bought for other reasons

Personally, I won't spend more than 200 eur for a new phone.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Just to cite one example, all that blazing compute is what enables the cameras to work as well as they do.

The price is "cheap" because it is low enough that most carriers will give it to you basically for free if you trade in your old phone and/or agree not to switch to a different carrier for 18-24 months.

That’s not free. They’re amortizing the cost of the phone into the service fees.

Even budget carriers do this. Google Fi charges $450 for the 6a or $240 if you agree to two years. Their cheapest lines are $15/mo, which is $360 over two years, so you can see how they can offer the $210 discount.

It is functionally free if you were going to pay for the same service from the same carrier for that period of time anyways.

My phone is the thing I use most out of all things I have.

So spending a few extra cent per hour of usage to get a nicer one is very easy to justify.

Exactly. Contrary to popular belief no one became poor by buying Starbucks or iPhones. For most folks their biggest financial blunders are likely always about real estate, marital, or career related not your petty cash spending habits.

In the US maybe, but there are many countries where housing or services are much cheaper, while iPhones cost the same.

In the poorer regions of my reasonably modern European country, getting even the base model of every iPhone generation would put significant stress on most families' finances, but it's what some folks actually do because it's such a status symbol.

But do you want to be spending so much time on your phone?

To me, buying an expensive phone is somewhat like buying an expensive tobacco pipe. It will just encourage you to use it more. When in fact, most of the 'use' is worse than useless.

$180 is about how much a phone should cost, and even that is too much what with forced (completely unjustified) obsolescence. $450 for a 'budget' phone is madness. $1000+ for a flagship is insanity. Unless you have a specific, legitimate need for it - most people don't.

Sounds like we should both have the phones we have :)

I mean it's all relative, but yeah, $429 starting price for a phone coming from a company that is known to support their products for a minimum of 5 years is really not bad. Especially since these phones hold their value far better than any other brand on the market. I bought an iphone SE (2nd gen) in 2020 for $450 and sold it for $230 in 2022, so it worked out to about $110/year. It was a fantastic phone, but I upgraded to a 13 mini because my work offered to pay for the phone. I used to have a Moto E, which I think most people would consider a "cheap" phone and a) it wasn't a great phone b) i had no desire to keep it more than 2 years and c) by the time i was done using it, it's secondary market value was low enough that i didn't bother selling it.

The iPhone SE is in the high end of what I’ll pay for a phone. Sadly it’s also the only smart phone available to me, as I don’t want an Android phone.

I'm in the same camp as you. Running an T420 instead. ;)

My phone is a top-low end phone or a low-mid end Oppo A 53? Or something like that. It does everything I need with loads of head room. Will just run it until death.

It took me a long, long time to get used to having an expensive device on me that is bulky, fragile, not waterproof (includes iPhones after you drop it once), requires daily charging, and not durable in general (due to battery or sabotage by update). Jewelry is more expensive but has none of these issues.

They are certainly very useful, but I don’t think the current standard is the best compromise.

FWIW dropped my iPhone 12+ several times (a recurring occurrence with some pants I use when I put the phone in the front pocket and sit on my office chair). So far, I can still wash it and even use it in the pool with the kids.

Of course, YMMV.

I bought iPhone 11 when it came out, never wear a case and dropped it numerous times. It still works fine, with the original screen intact(not counting some scratches).

It survived even flying from an e-scooter after I’ve hit a bump on 15 km/h and sliding couple meters on asphalt afterwards.

And after all that it still had no problem when I dived into the pool with it and shot how I’m riding on a water slide.

Maybe I’m just lucky but it feels like you are exaggerating iPhone fragility. They’ve improved a lot recently.

Perhaps we were unlucky. Fyi: the standard iPhone warranty does not cover water damage (and it was just a spill, not submerged). Found out the hard way.

My suggestion is to buy them used. So far I've purchased ~4 Apple devices for family members on Swappa, each time I got a pretty good discount over the new device. So while an SE is $429 new, you can find one in mint condition on Swappa with 95% battery health (the most important detail when buying a used iOS device IMO) for $220, and if you're tight on cash and want to really go cheap, buy one that's been scuffed up for around $130.

Good phones have never been cheap. NEVER.

Even the Nokia candy bar phones MSRPed at $USD 599 or greater. (Remember the Communicator? I think that thing clocked in at $USD 999!)

The current iteration of expensive phones have an incredible price to value ratio. High quality displays, professional grade camera lenses assisted with top-tier computational photography, extremely fast SoCs. The SEs are all of that with slightly lower quality bins...for $400.

Are you not entertained?

I bought a Mini with great excitement, thinking that it would take me back to the glory of the "my phone fits my my pocket and I can type with one hand" days.

I kept it for 3 months, and then traded it in for a Pro. It turns out that the world has moved on. Web pages are getting harder to read on small screens. I had to squint a lot. The phone's short height means that it often doesn't charge "vertically" in Qi chargers. It doesn't fit in my car's integrated phone holder, it just rattles around.

And I really missed the zoom lens.

So I'm OK with the Pro, and I will get used to slightly larger phones.

(The "Max" is still stupid.)

Why did you go for a Pro over a regular iPhone 13 (for example).

I'm trying to workout which one to get, way too many options in 2022.

I do a lot of outdoor stuff, not sure if I want the weight of the pro, is it worth it?

> Why did you go for a Pro over a regular iPhone 13 (for example).

The zoom lens. Worth the price alone.

Pro has 120hz refresh rate vs 60hz for the regular.

As above and 6GB memory not 4GB. The processor is fast enough that it will be good for 5+ years with a battery replacement midway, but the 4GB ram might end up hurting before that.

> processor is fast enough that it will be good for 5+ years

This is how I feel, 3 years later, after getting the 11 Pro in 2019. If I do upgrade this year, I'll give it to my dad, and he'll probably use it till it breaks :)

I’m not sure when the 14 will be released but I would wait if you can. It will be better at (most likely) the same price tag.

I have luckily had the opposite experience. I've always had the biggest phone I could get (Pro Max and all the rest) but decided to try the 13 Mini after hearing so many good things. Given how fussy I usually am, it's been amazing. The pros outweigh any cons for me, but it seems the Mini is going the way of the dodo in future anyway and the SE really is a step too far down for me.

Just hold on to your current phone. I upgraded to the 13 mini from the 7 Plus expecting it to be faster. It isn’t. I’m still glad I upgraded because the mini is smaller than the 7 Plus while giving up only a little bit of screen size, and I can use it without a case because it’s not shaped like a bar of soap.

But this showed me that phone performance is no longer a reason to upgrade, so I’ll probably hold on to this one even longer than I kept the 7 Plus.

What do you do on your phone that the 13 mini isn't faster than the 7 Plus? I've had both of these phones — the 13 is my daily driver, and I have the 7 plugged into a TV as a media hub. While it isn't unbearably slow, it's noticeably slower than the 13 for pretty much everything.

I know that objectively speaking the chip in the 13 is leaps and bounds faster. But in my daily use I don’t see it. Safari is no faster. Maps is no faster. Some apps like Sonos still have startup time.

Probably the apps I use just aren’t CPU bound, or they need other optimizations to make them faster. Which probably makes me like most people. My wife is still happily using an iPhone 8 and she will probably replace it only when it completely goes out. Since phones are so durable now—the home button doesn’t even wear out—that might take years more.

Interesting! Makes me want to go do a speed test to see where the biggest differences are One app that comes to mind is Camera, which is super fast to load on the newer phones. When taking photos of babies/toddlers, load time is important! But you're right that some apps probably have similar load times across devices because the weakest link is a web connection (Google Nest, looking at you...).

I’m not sure how you could say the 13 isn’t faster than the 7. That seems like a perception/expectations issue.

> the SE really is a step too far down for me

Down? What does the mini have that the SE doesn’t?

Magsafe, Face Id, nearly full-screen display, and a better camera array (I think?).

Also uwb for Air tags.

>Face Id

I switched from an iphone 7 to a 13 mini and I dearly miss touch ID. It worked a lot better than face id IMO. When the new SE was announced just months after I got the mini I was pretty bummed.

FaceID has been a revelation for me. TouchID was rather touchy... If my finger was a bit damp it didn't read. If my skin was too dry, it wouldn't read. FaceID hasn't failed me yet.

I've also experienced some flakiness with Touch ID, bit Face ID has been even worse. It frequently fails when a strand of loose hair partially covers my face.

For me, and this is irritating, magsafe. All my other devices have it and the peripherals are better with it.

I agonized over this dumb thing but am terribly happy with my mini, in ways I haven’t been since the original SE.

I love the size of my mini. It's perfect for one handed operation.

I have the 13 mini and love it - I’m sad it’ll be the last one for a long time. The 12 was great too, but the battery life hit was noticeable- the 13 fixed that.

I would prefer the telephoto lens to the the warped wide angle (which I find useless). I also miss out on the high refresh rate display (for the 12 year none of the phones had it).

The mini is probably my favorite iPhone design of all time. It’s basically a 5 (my previous favorite) with a full screen display.

It’s a shame we’ll lose a small phone that doesn’t compromise on features this year - I don’t want an SE.

if apple would have moved to usb-c, I would have jumped ship to the iphone 13 mini when I needed a phone. Sad that they won't be making them for a while.

Out of curiosity, why? USB-C offers no marked improvements over Lightning, none whatsoever, plus it's more fragile and the port size is significantly larger.

If you're just going to declare all of that to be factual, what response should anyone give? If there is "no improvement, none whatsoever" then obviously Lightning should win! But that's not the case at all.

Lightning places the springs inside the port, instead of on the cable. So, when the springs wear out, you need a new phone instead of a new cable.

Lightning directly exposes the pins on the cable to the environment and corrosion, which is not a better design for durability and longevity.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that USB-C is more fragile than Lightning. It isn't, although this seems to be a persistent belief. All evidence I've seen points to the opposite conclusion, at least as far as the port is concerned, and everyone should care a lot more about the port than the cable. Ports are much more expensive to replace than cables. We're also not talking about the flimsy microUSB connector, which was rife with problems.

The USB-C port has also been repeatedly proven to be small enough to fit into the current crop of iPhones, so why does the minuscule difference in size matter? It isn't the limiting factor for anything.

But, none of that really matters. What matters is that approximately all of my other devices use USB-C, but I have to either carry around a Lightning cable or a wireless charger just for my phone. Why? It's incredibly annoying to need yet another type of cable, and Lightning isn't better at anything. If Lightning was so much better, Apple should have pushed for it to become the standard instead of USB-C, as Apple has been part of the USB-IF for a very long time, and Apple would have used it on their laptops instead of USB-C... but they didn't do either of those things. Even Apple is moving away from Lightning, first on their iPads, but it is clear they're going to do this across the board over time.

Even worse, Lightning is limited to USB 2.0 speeds on iPhone. Apple introduces iPhones with a terabyte of storage and the ability to record massive 4k ProRes video files... but how are you supposed to get those multi-gigabyte files onto a computer for editing? Lightning at slower-than-WiFi speeds? WiFi at 600Mbps instead of USB-C at 10Gbps? None of it makes any sense.

It is way past time for Apple to switch the iPhone to USB-C, but it apparently won't happen until next year.

> Lightning places the springs inside the port, instead of on the cable. So, when the springs wear out, you need a new phone instead of a new cable.

In practice I've never had a Lightning port fail while the USB-C port on my Macbook loosened so much that it wouldn't hold any cable.

I've seen exactly one person in real life get gunk build-up in a USB-C port, making things feel loose, and just cleaning that out solved the problem. Considering the moving part is on the cable, the port itself should be fine.

I've never personally dealt with loose USB-C or lightning ports on any of my devices, which is why I pointed out that a technically inferior design just doesn't matter at all here, but you can find plenty examples online of people complaining about Lightning ports too if we just want to talk anecdata.

In practice, they're both fine for charging devices. Even if Lightning were technically superior at charging devices, which it doesn't seem to be, it still wouldn't matter. Lightning sucks for other reasons, like requiring me to bring an additional cable on trips, and not supporting USB 3 speeds on devices that have enormous storage and where Apple intentionally helps you generate enormous files that need to be transferred. That's why I placed so much emphasis on these points in my comment, and said none of the earlier stuff mattered.

You didn't seem to have trouble posting a different response/opinion. And I'm glad you did, as I welcome the debate, even though I disagree.

As a side note, there is nothing technical limiting Lightning to USB2 speeds. It's fully capable of being adapted to USB3 speeds if Apple wants to. I would agree with you that Apple should have done this by now on the iPhone. I imagine they will. But as for how we're supposed to move big files around? AirDrop does a great job at this and is extremely fast, and requires no setup, and doesn't require that you have the right cable around, plus you can even AirDrop to many folks at once. I use this all the time in music rehearsals and for sharing photos or video.

AirDrop is actually so fast that the bottleneck is NOT the full speed of the WiFi chip that is present; it's usually the speed of the SSD or SD card you're reading from. AirDrop is blisteringly fast. Especially on newer devices with WiFi 6 hardware.

Side note 2: recent iPads actually do have USB3-capable Lightning ports.

It's not a miniscule difference in port size at all, btw. It's actually quite significant. And yes, it is a limiting factor in at least two ways: how thin the device can become, and how strong the case frame can remain at its weakest point, which is inevitably in the area surrounding that port.

http://www.josh-ua.co/blog/2015/3/15/usb-c-dimensions-size-c...

https://blog.ugreen.com/usb-c-vs-lightning-port/

Travel. Travel. Travel.

Having everything USB-C just makes travel so much easier.

I travel a lot and "having everything USB C" didn't help.

I had:

- a USB C cord that only supports power but up to 100W

- a USB C cord that supports power up to 60W and data at USB2 speeds. But didn't work with my USB C powered portable display. Because it didn't support video.

- a USB C cord that only supported power up to 60W and data and video.

I'm usually traveling with:

- My MacBook Pro 16 inch (USB C)

- Mouse/Keyboard (lightning)

- iPad Air 3rd Gen (lightning)

- iPhone 12 (lightning)

- AirPods Pro (lightning)

- Beats Flex (they hang around my neck and I don't have to worry about them falling out on the plane if I dose off) USB C

- a four in one wireless charger that I sit by my bed at the hotel. (USB C).

- a Anker battery pack (USB-C)

- portable monitor (USB C)

- Watch - weird Apple proprietary wireless charging.

But now I only travel with these cords for most of my devices:

Female USB A/USB C on one end and USB C/lightning on the other end. They support data up to 480Mbps and power up to 60W. They are $13.00. They are cheap and not too thick.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092ZT8CJ9

But for a truly "universal cable", I have three of these:

- Female USB A/USB C on one end

- lightning, USB C, and Micro USB on the other end

- 10GBps data transfer

- supports video over USB C

- Supports charging up to 100W.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B093YVRHMB

They are like $35 and are much thicker and a little unwieldy and I don't need them just for charging anything but my computer and connecting my secondary display.

BTW, this is my portable USB Monitor

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095GG31KX/

I can't use my iPad as a second monitor using the native ability in MacOs because of corporate software. I found out later that I could use Duet.

Thanks for the tip on a holy grail cable. I have a few just like that but am always annoyed at their max 60W PD and USB 2.0 speeds. Still, the adapters are configured the same and it's totally worth it to be able to always connect anything to anything.

Even without any improvement, I don't want to have to worry about having multiple cords for my phone. I charge my phone at night while I sleep, so as long as it charges fully in a couple of hours, that's "good enough" in exchange for the convenience of a single cord.

Rumor is the next iPhone will be usb type c, but I thought they’d just remove the port entirely.

Was on the fence last year between a 12 mini and the latest SE (which this article is about, I think).

I somewhat regret the 12 mini, not because of the size (or even battery - it's fine for my daily use), but the face ID. As others have said, it's just too interruptive. (well, they didn't say that word exactly, but it's what I think).

Rumors I'd read last year would be that a 13 or 14 would have a 'button' underneath the glass screen, so we'd effectively have a 'home' button without the need for a physical button. Not in the 13, and I've not heard about it in the 14 (yet?) but would welcome that. The touch-id flow I had grown used to was so ... useful and fluid. Part of the reason I don't think I recognized it as much was 2020/2021 - so much of my regular life was thrown out of whack (travel/meetings/etc) that the impact of moving to face ID wasn't all that noticeable. As we're 'returning to normal' more and more, and I'm 'out' more, the day to day impact is more noticeable.

I just picked up a 13 mini and this is what would push me over the edge to return it. I keep having to take my sunglasses off to make it recognise me.

If a 14 mini came out with Touch ID I’d be all over it, but for now I think I’m going back to the SE.

They can put a fingerprint sensor on the side like the iPad air or other android phones. That would be really nice. May be even call it iPhone air so that it goes with their iPad air and MacBook air. But we know apple wouldn't do that.

FWIW, i never did faceID with glasses, but it does recognize me, and in the last 6 months or so I've noticed that it works even with sunglasses on (and masks sometimes too).

I love my 13 mini and it’s easily my favorite iPhone since the 5.

The only thing missing is the zoom. Wish they replaced the useless 0.5x lens with the 2x. Everything else about this phone is perfect

The 0.5x is far more useful than the 2x. Most of the things one would do with the 2x can be had by just walking a bit closer to the subject. Or by just shooting at 1x and cropping, since there's resolution to spare.

But the 0.5x very frequently enables indoor shots that are impossible to get otherwise. Because you can't back up for a wider view if you're next to a wall.

Apple chose well.

> Most of the things one would do with the 2x can be had by just walking a bit closer to the subject

Except for the main reason I ever used it: depth of field and more natural proportions.

Digital zoom can’t do that and no portrait mode is not the same.

On my old phone I would often switch to 2x and walk away from the subject to get a better photo.

Here’s a good example of how faces change when shot with different focal lengths: https://imgur.io/gallery/ZKTWi

13 Mini lover here. I find the small screen an advantage, because it makes me less likely to look at web pages on it. I'm actively trying to use my phone less, while not pretending that living modern life without a phone is essentially impossible.

When I do succumb to my own weakness and look at something on the tiny screen, I often think, meh, this isn't great, just do something else!

^Yes, this! Got a mini too as part of my mission to reduce phone time. I still use it plenty, and haven't once missed having a bigger screen.

Fully agree with you. I need the practicality of a smartphone but want to reduce screen time. The 13 mini forces me to use my laptop if I want to read or perform a task.

> The "Max" is still stupid.

It's a lazy, bad name but it is objectively a great product. It is extremely successful.

Dismissing it because it doesn't work for you is as absurd as dismissing shoes too big for you or pants made from a material you don't like. Other people do, the world is not about you.

Ironic how you point out the subjectivity of what a likable phone is while also saying how the Pro Max is objectively great, lol. By the end of the day the person that you’re replying to is just expressing an opinion, which is allowed.

I use the Anker magnetic car mount and it works like a dream for the Mini. I think it successfully attached 100% of the time?

I’ve got a 12 mini and I’m quite happy with it. I admit that I don’t charge it wirelessly because I have a snap ring on the back. I’m disappointed that the form factor is dead going forward.

I love how pocketable my 13 mini is. When I first got it, I would be walking around and not remember if it was in my pocket or not — it's that light/small. My prior phone was an 11 Pro, which had a nice heft to it but was sometimes difficult to push into my pants pocket (especially when sitting). The 13 mini slides in easily, no matter the angle.

I do wonder if the battery will hold up over time, especially as I start going to conferences and other all-day events. It was a non-issue during the first year, when I was almost always at home.

Hey as a film/television guy the max is a dream. Don’t discount it completely just because it’s not for you!

My favorite part of the 13 mini is the wallet fits so satisfyingly. It was made for it.

I love my 13 mini, but the battery is really bad. It’s really noticeable, especially coming from XR.

I know this is all anecdotal, but my 13 mini lasts consistently longer than my 8 ever did and I’m super happy with the battery. I’ve never had it not make it through a day, even when GPS and brightness is cranked with the Disney World app (which is why I had to carry a battery with my 8 when I went there). Makes me wonder how long the Xr battery would last with my workload.

Well, XR regularly lasted about 2 days for me. I didn’t have to think about charging almost at all.

> (The "Max" is still stupid.)

The Max is only stupid if you're in the "phone is a phone" group.

For the "my phone is my main computing device" people it's a really good device.

Another 13 Mini user here and I love it. Upgraded from a 6s and I was shocked to see the size inflation. First thing I want from my phone is for it to comfortably fit into my pocket. Also single hand usage. The actual screen estate is pretty close to the 6s so I don't feel like I've lost anything.

> It is a crazy strategy of Apple to put the “brains” of its most expensive phone, the iPhone 13 Pro Max (+USD 1.099), in its entry model, low cost (USD 429). No other company does this.

The $449 Pixel 6a, which was released today, has the same Tensor chip as the $899 Pixel 6 Pro. This is advertised prominently on the product page:

https://store.google.com/us/product/pixel_6a

Yeah but it's Google, it's probably Naive, but I just hate the company and the business model.

That also makes them wrong, which is still true regardless about how you feel about the companies. Besides, it's a ridiculous statement anyways: for example, Nothing's first phone is coming out soon, which means their most expensive and cheapest phones will be running the same chip. Failing that, there's dozens of Android companies that made lines of handsets using the exact same SOC (like ZTE) because it's cheap to develop. Regardless of the companies involved, saying they're the "only one that does this" is like saying your local diner is the only one making you a real cheesesteak.

Did you mean to respond to my comment? Beause if so, I have no idea how to interpret it or what your point is.

Though if the iPhone SE 2016 and the Pixel 3a are anything to go by, the new iPhone SE will probably have software support for 2x or longer than the Pixel 6a.

The pixel 3a is still supported by AOSP distros like CalyxOS:

https://calyxos.org/install/

While I appreciate that some phones can be supported by the community, I think it's unreasonable to expect that the community continue support in place of OEMs. Especially ones like Google, that can set the tenor for the entire Android ecosystem.

No SafetyNet, so useless for some of us.

As of May 2022, SafetyNet basic attestation works on CalyxOS by default for the Pixel 3a and later:

https://calyxos.org/news/2022/05/07/location-safetynet-fix/

Even on the latest model Pixel phones Google still refuses to commit to more than 3 years of Android updates... They have at least lengthened the security update timeline to a whole 5 years.

I bought an iphone around the launch of the Pixel 4, which is now nearing it's end of support. Meanwhile Apple has provided the latest updates to devices that launched 7 years ago.

I could be wrong but I think qualcomm is the biggest obstacle for google in supporting older phone versions.

they won't ship updated drivers for new android versions for old phones.

And they will charge OEMs quite a big sum for every new Android versions on an old phone.

But given that Google now uses their own SOCs, rather than Qualcomms, they can provide updates for their phones for a lot longer.

The difference being that since every app dev expects iphones to be on the latest ios version, as soon as your phone goes out of support it will become obsolete quickly. Android has a larger install base of users on old os versions, so you can expect support even if you aren't on the latest one. New ios versions usually have the disadvantage of being poorly optimized for older models, and I personally have never cared much about the new features. So staying on the old os version indefinitely might be a better option as long as apps still support it.

I don't think it's crazy though; I think it reflects that in software / OS development you save a lot of dev & qa time by minimising your hardware fragmentation.

Also that if you have special sauce (eg a tensor chip), you want to give it to all users if you can, or developers won't bother optimising for it.

It's also true for hardware. I think this is primary reason rather than software because bleeding edge SoC R&D fixed cost should be higher.

But that chip is not as good as the apple one. In fact not even close.

The battery life on that one is atrocious compared to the apple one.

On the other hand it can do live voice translation without an internet connection. Can Apple do that?

Yep.

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/translate-text-voice-...

I feel Apple actually does more on device ML stuff than Google devices.

yeah, but they screwed up everything else about the 6a. it's clear it was just a dump on the bang per value sector. I would have jumped to a 6a if they designed it for the sector but they clearly did not.

True, although that Tensor chip is around 24 months behind Apple's chips, and the gap is getting wider and wider.

I would pay a decent chunk of money for an iPhone SE clone that runs Android. I'm so tired of big phones. I can't do this anymore.

Past discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31411191

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30405011

iPhone 13 mini will probably be the last small phone we’ll see for a while.

There’s the Balmuda phone on the Android side as well. The market simply does not support small screen devices.

Running Asus ZenFone 8. Screen size is relatively normal compared to the monsters that other manufacturers ship.

Zenphone 9 got it's review embargoes lifted today! Really cool, from what I can tell: https://youtu.be/J_0teOgTAhQ

I'm on the Pixel 3, which at 5.5" is right at the upper limit of what I consider acceptable. Looks like the ZenFone 8 is 5.9", and is being described as "compact".

Screen size doesn't matter though; the body is within a couple mm of an S22 and thicker.

Same with the Zenfone 9.

Pixel 5 + GrapheneOS makes me feel the same way about my device as the author.

It's small enough to pocket in a pair of lightweight shorts. It's bland to look at, no branding, symmetrical bezels all around, but stuffed with all the features and functionality I want.

The Pixel 4a is probably your best bet; that's what I use. Still getting updates and it's quite decent, though it's a couple years old now.

Last update is scheduled for August 2023.

https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en#zippy=...

Love the size and weight of my Pixel 4a. I broke the screen on mine a few weeks back, and paid over half the original price of the phone to have it repaired.

Then you'd want the iPhone Mini right? Its smaller than the SE.

Let's see today appeared Zenfone 9, it loosks good. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32271660

5.9in is not small.

The display aspect ratio is 20:9. It's a bit taller than iPhone SE 2, but similar width. So 1 hand use friendly.

Samsung XCover 5 seems the best bet atm, to the point I'm surprised I hadn't heard of it earlier; smaller than just about any other android phone I've encountered in years (almost iPhone Mini sized), has a removeable battery and theoretically should have zero need for a case. The double combo of Samsung promising longer support cycles and it technically being an enterprise model mean it should be supported longer than most Android phones would be too.

New they're a bit pricey for the specs but you can find them like new used on ebay for half RRP.

I have iPhone 11. At 44 I use large font setting so I can use it without glasses. I can’t imagine going smaller. :(

There are individual customers that will pay for all kind of crazy features. But the vast majority of the customers buy bigger phones. There's a rumor the iPhone Mini sells so badly Apple will not release any new versions.

I am using Sony Xperia 5 II and I am quite happy with it. It is not that small but it's acceptable for me: 68 x 158 millimeters (2.68 x 6.22 in). And it also features a headphone jack! :P

An independent effort to fund the development of such a phone is being organized at https://smallandroidphone.com/

precisely. i still can't believe that a small, still supported, phone does not exist in the Android world.

FaceID works great but I miss TouchID for one unique reason : with Touch ID, the Apple Pay UX is pure genius : just take your phone in your pocket with the thumb on the button. Place it on top of the payment terminal. You are done.

With Touch ID you have to prepare the phone by unlocking it before making the payment. Which means that you have to stare at your phone while you are interacting with the merchant. It’s odd and unnatural.

Well, it’s not that bad neither really important but the initial UX was wonderful in its objectification of the phone as a convenient payment method.

(And don’t talk me about Apple Watch, payment experience is terribly unnatural as it means making weird moves with your wrist).

I wonder if you could fingerprint hand movements. Then you wouldn't even have to strategically place your thumb.

I just double-click the right-hand side button in my pocket, then double-check this is the correct card - thus unlocking the phone by me looking at it. Do it everyday without issues

FaceID, sucks. It pulls attention away from whatever I am doing and forces me to fully stop. I hate it so much that I am seriously considering using a pixel 3 as a soft token/rsa fob.

I have dozens of mfa codes 5 apps, requiring me to stop, look at my phone wait for it find my ugly face so I can click ‘yes it me’, in Okta, MS Authenticator, Duo, Google Authenticator, Symantec VIP, is ridiculous.

I want my freaking 6s with a phone jack. /endrant

I’m suspecting FaceID on my phone is also unlocking itself after I’ve locked it on its way back to my pocket.

I’ll take it out, pay. Lock it and pocket it. Then later hear it’s started playing music or find half typed gibberish messages or random phone numbers because it’s been activating in my pocket.

Never happened on any iPhones I’ve owned till I got the 11 with FaceID

FaceID is also still terrible if you need/want to wear masks, even with the updates it still doesn't recognize your face half the time. Likewise, the FaceID with mask recognition may work to unlock your phone but then NOT work to open the APP whose notification you clicked on in the first place.

The best 'cheap' phone that was ever released in the US was the $499 Google Nexus 6P by Huawei in 2015. It was an octa-core phone that made Apple's dual core iPhone 6s (also released in 2015) look like an overpriced joke. The 6P's aluminum body was lighter and thinner than the iPhone 6s, its camera took much better pictures _by far_ especially in low light conditions (restaurants, evening travel, etc), the iPhone's old backlit IPS LCD screen had _nothing_ on 6P's gorgeous AMOLED. It took Apple 2 years to catch up to the 6P, with their iPhone X, and even then it didn't beat the 6P in every category. It was a beast of a phone. Mine finally died last year after 2 years of heavy use and 4 years of being a backup phone.

See for yourself: https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=7588&idPhone2...

My wife enjoyed her 6P, then it died prematurely of bootloop. As did the warranty replacement one.

Got a double payout from the eventual class action suit.

I agree with your comment. The camera was really impressive and it was first nexus phone where the camera outperformed an iPhone. But I think the video quality wasn’t that great when compared to iPhone. Mine started shutting down prematurely in Canadian winter after more than a year of use. But Google replaced mine for free even after the 1yr warranty expired. Ended up with Pixel 2 which had even better camera than Nexus 6P. The first iPhone to outperform Pixel 2 for low light was the iPhone 11. But during those times the video quality really sucked on both Nexus and Pixel, which it still does to the day.

I don't agree with you, since a friend and had the iPhone 6s Plus and 7 Plus (Me) and a friend if mine the Huawei P9 Plus and the 6P, 6P was nowhere. The best shot was taken in black white with the Huawei P9 Plus and it literally beat my iPhones and I still use that picture for several things.

I'm a bit confused. If you're trying to say that Huawei's P9 (released in 2016) took better pictures than Huawei's 6P (released in 2015) and than the iPhones, then I don't think there's anything to disagree over. They both took better pictures than the iPhones, seeing as they're both Huawei phones released shortly one after the other.

Now that I think about it, you might be saying that P9 was more wide-spread in the US than the 6P, which would also be confusing, because I don't think the P9 was officially sold in the US.

My wife and I loved ours, but both bootloop suicided at the 13 and 15 month mark. _Both_. Out of warranty by 1 and 2 months. That was my official departure from Android (which I otherwise loved). I've never had a problem with the 6 iPhones I have owned (3 before, 3 after) -- but ironically my Wife's second iPhone after _also_ suicided. She somehow negotiated a free replacement 6 months out of warranty, so iPhone still came out ahead. I had a pretty good experience with the Nexus 5 (my favorite for its time) and the Pixel 2 (not my favorite form factor, otherwise great).

Both make great phones but having a popular phone has a really killer feature where it works out a lot of bugs. Not perfect, but I think if iPhones had the same level of issue as the Nexus 6 there'd be an extended warranty or something comparable.

> It was an octa-core phone that made Apple's dual core iPhone 6s (also released in 2015) look like an overpriced joke

The iPhone 6s gets a single-core Geekbench of 528 while the Nexus 6P gets 208. The Nexus 6P's multi-core score was 520 - less then the iPhone 6s' single-core score. The iPhone 6s' multi-core score was 970 - 87% higher than the Nexus 6P.

Yep, it had 8 cores. Good for it. It was still a lot slower.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/9820/the-google-nexus-6p-revi...

AnandTech also found it a lot slower. Mozilla's Kraken web browser benchmark took 2.4x longer on the Nexus 6P. The iPhone scored around 1.9x higher on Google's Octane benchmark.

It's really hard to argue with Apple's superior processor performance. I guess if you're looking for more cores with inferior performance, the Nexus 6P fits the bill. MORE CORES!

I had expected 8 slower cores to outperform the 2 slightly faster cores in multi-core benchmarks, so the results are somewhat surprising, but I guess Apple's wide pipeline design keeps on giving. Thanks for the benchmark data.

For what it's worth, the statement you quoted did not initially contain the number of cores. 6P felt super snappy (at least on Android 6, not so much on Oreo) and I added the cores for dramatic effect, but that backfired. I'll leave it as-is so others can notice and learn from my mistake once they read your reply.

Man it's been a while since I read someone comparing raw specs. Android phones always looked better on paper but sucked compared to the iPhone experience in every way. I don't even say this as an Apple user because I tried so many times to switch to Android when I looked at the specs myself.

Even before the iPhone I looked at the brand new 2G, no GPS, 240p screen, 1Mpx camera iPhone and laughed from my "old" 3G/VGA/GPS/2Mpx Windows Phone. Until I tried the iPhone and there was no going back.

I'll give you a pass on the Apple fanboism, seeing as you made the poor judgment call to get a Windows phone ;)

On second thought, are you sure you're not still holding your iPhone wrong?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/06/25/iphone.problems.re...

Windows Phone 7 was awesome

I had a 6p it was great but cheap construction. First battery wore out after 9 months, second one wasn't much longer, especially in the cold. Lots of other people had hardware problems, it was rare to see them after a few years.

I upgraded to the 13 Pro Max from the 8 Plus and I’m still annoyed several times a day by interactions that are strictly worse without the touch sensor. Today it was because you used to be able to unlock just by holding your phone with your thumb on the sensor. But now you have to raise it to your face, hope it works after a couple of goes with your sunglasses on, and then even when it does you have to swipe up to see what you were last looking at. It made checking a map on a webpage repeatedly feel like torture. It’s a tax on every single interaction with my phone and while I love the storage and the screen I have thought about ditching it.

I also miss the fingerprint sensor. It’s fast and effective. I wish they would add it to the power button or if they can improve the tech, under the screen.

You're right, unlocking the phone every single time you want to interact with it is exceedingly tedious.

Which is why I remove the FaceID/passcode completely. The overall improvement to my QoL is well worth the increased risk. And all my truly sensitive apps are passcode protected, anyway.

This would change my life! FaceId protect specific Apps + Settings.

Let guests (or myself) use Google Maps, Calculator, etc without a lock screen.

There is also the middle ground of a lock timeout - if you use your phone more than, say, once an hour, it'll never lock, but if you drop it on the ground and it sits there for an hour it'll be locked if someone finds it.

Driving in the car with a Face ID phone is a nightmare. You hand it to the passenger to look at, it’s locked, you have to try to look at it while your driving, then if you get unlucky and it locks you have to enter your passcode while you’re driving (I have an alphanumeric passcode and it’s very hard to enter if I’m not looking at the phone). Touch ID, I could just plop my thumb on the home button without looking.

I have a magic keyboard with TouchID and it's made me really nostalgic for phones with TouchID. Never need to tilt my head or raise my hand to log into anything anymore.

I miss three things from new iphones:

* The 3.5mm headphone jack for plugging in wired headphones. Wired headphones often last longer than wireless headphones.

* The physical home button, way easier to use than gestures.

* The full length status icon bar. On newer iphones not all icons are shown only a few. Which means you cant see if the VPN icon is connected/visible. Old iphones had full length icon bar.

Still holding on to my 6s though not as a main driver exactly because of these reasons.

Same here. Gotta replace the battery some time soon, but still _very_ happy with it. If it should ever break, this SE generation looks like the best replacement option.

I have had my iPhone 6S for six years now, and it’s still going strong. I’ve replaced the battery a couple of times and the screen more than a couple. I can do everything I need with it, and it’s the perfect size. So I have no desire to upgrade until I must.

Just wondering, how much did it cost to get the battery and screen replaced? And did you do it via Apple or a third-party repair shop?

Apple’s battery replacement service is about $50 including shipping. Took a little less than a week for me.

Interesting, $50 isn't too bad. What did you do while your phone was gone for repairs? Did they give you a loaner?

They will give you a loaner but I think the vast majority of Americans live close enough to an Apple Store where they'll swap the battery in 30-60 minutes. I pop in, drop the phone off, go fuck off for a beer or two, come back to a fresh new battery. Super straightforward.

> I think the vast majority of Americans live close enough to an Apple Store

I don't, which is I why I was asking haha.

I actually did it myself with instructions online. The screen is a bit of a pain because everything sits on top of the screen, so every component need to be removed and then reinstalled on the new screen. Battery is only 10 minutes.

As for how much, I think $20 for battery, $50 for screen (iirc)

That's impressive! I would never trust myself to repair my own hardware haha.

I suppose that's an advantage of having such an old phone, you can take risks without expensive consequences. In saying that, once you've done it once the risk is low with the right precautions (outlined in the online guides).

i have a 6S and only had 1 battery change, and that was on apple, since mine was recalled for a defective battery problem.

as noted in my other comment, i'd be ok with a full screen version of this phone if they put the home button on the side and keep the fingerprint scanner (in button or in screen) and leave off the front facing camera (pinhole camera is acceptable too, but not a notch). i'd prefer to keep the headphone jack, but that's probably asking too much of apple.

> i'd prefer to keep the headphone jack, but that's probably asking too much of apple.

Yeah the headphone jack being removed pissed me off too. However the lighting to 3.5mm adaptor isn't as bad as I thought it would be. Sure it was an extra £9 I wish I didn't have to spend, but was also a figure that I didn't lose any sleep over when ordering it.

The adaptor just lives on my headphones as I use a differnt pair at my desk. The only reservation about it now is "Will it fray like all other apple cables do with time?"

EDIT: Also had a 6s. Had 2 battery changes and the phone was due for a 3rd before recently just swapping the phone. First was done by Apple for free (excluding the cost of travelling to the Apple store and turning it into a shopping day :-P), the other I did myself at home with a 3rd party battery.

Holding onto my 6s as long as I can, because of the headphone jack. My headphones are kind of expensive. I also plug them into my laptop. If I'm putting an adapter on and off all the time I'll keep losing adapters, but I'd rather not buy a second pair of nice headphones.

A silicone tether like the ones you can get for the cap on the Apple Pencil. Yeah another item you shouldn’t need. But it would keep the adapter tethered to the cable so you won’t lose it as you swap between phone and laptop.

yah, headphone jack isn't a deal killer, but i do like having it. an adapter is ok but not great.

You’d rather have big iPhone 6s bezels than a notch? I agree that a hole punch is preferable to a notch. I really wish they’d put a fingerprint scanner in the Apple logo on the back of the phone.

i don't want the bezels, but it's what i have, and the notch is just as unappealing to me, along with faceID and no home button. i'm hoping to skip the notch when i upgrade.

the back would be ok, but one of the reasons i like the side button with fingerprint sensor (or in-screen) is that it can be face up on a surface and you can still actuate the sensor. it's not that big a difference, but it is slightly better UX.

i also like the fingerprint version over faceID because it's not 2 steps to open the phone most of the time, but still gives you the option to see the preview screen when desired (pressing the home button with the fingernail/fingertip).

The 6S is now out of software update range. You need at least an 8 for iOS 16.

Within two years most apps will probably stop supporting iOS 15 so you’ll start having issues.

It’s obviously served you great, but it might be time. And the difference in performance (CPU and camera) will floor you. Plus wireless charging is awesome.

> It’s obviously served you great, but it might be time.

Isn't it sad that there has to be a "time" to upgrade? Why can't phones be like refrigerators or microwaves where if you don't care about the latest features you can just buy them once and keep them for 20+ years?

> Within two years most apps will probably stop supporting iOS 15 so you’ll start having issues.

Some might, but I don't think most will, and I feel overall there's a fair chance they may not run into many problems. Let's look at the top 20 apps' iOS requirements for their latest app version: - ZOOM - iOS 8.0 - TikTok - iOS 10.0 - Disney+ - iOS 14.0 - YouTube - iOS 12.0 - Instagram - iOS 12.4 - Facebook - iOS 13.4 - Snapchat - iOS 12.0 - Messenger - iOS 11.0 - Gmail - iOS 13.0 - Cash App - iOS 13.0 - Amazon Shopping - iOS 13.0 - Netflix - iOS 14.0 - Google Maps - iOS 13.4 - DoorDash - iOS 14.0 - Spotify - iOS 13.0 - Widgetsmith - iOS 14.0 - WhatsApp - iOS 12.0 - Venmo - iOS 13.0 - Google - iOS 14.0 - Google Meet - iOS 13.0

So 7 of these apps can have their latest version run on the iPhone 5S (iOS 12), which released nearly 9 years ago and hasn't received a major update in almost 4 years. None of these apps require the latest version of iOS, and only 4 of them require the second most recent version of iOS.

However, many if not most of these apps will allow you to download an older version if you aren't running the latest iOS version, and it will often continue to work. Realistically, most people probably won't care if their Gmail app is running an old version if it still works.

> It’s obviously served you great, but it might be time.

If it becomes an issue, they can upgrade at that time if they feel it is necessary. I don't see any reason to upgrade prematurely though.

Yes, in theory their device will be insecure once it stops receiving updates. In practice, I'm aware of exceptionally few people who have been infected by a virus on an unsupported iPhone. They can disable JavaScript in the browser if they want to be extra secure (not that that mitigates all vulnerabilities, but unless they're notably rich, famous or powerful, they're probably unlikely to be targeted.)

I have a similar outlook, in that I'll upgrade when forced. Even now I sometimes encounter apps that won't run on the phone, but they're yet to be so essential to warrant an upgrade.

Original SE for me, also six years old. One screen replacement, original battery.

Only things I'd change about it if I could would be more space and a better camera.

I suppose the OS upgrade treadmill will move on sometime in the next year and I'll have no choice but to replace something that's otherwise perfectly serviceable, and it's too bad there will be nothing with a headphone jack.

As someone in the same situation, I plan on keepng the SE as a music player after it loses support.

I was holding out with my 6s until a month ago but finally jumped ship to a 13 mini. It's a great upgrade. Unfortunately staying on an old iOS version isn't possible since apps will start requiring iOS 16 at some point.

Well the ”must” is arriving this fall unfortunately. The 6s is not going to receive iOS 16. It had a really good run though, I believe the longest of any iPhone so far but I figure it’s only going to keep getting longer now that they stopped being so stingy with RAM

The (actual) perfect phone is the gen 1 SE. I literally just returned my gen 3 and ordered two new sealed in the box gen 1 SE’s on eBay for $150 a piece. I’ve been using this model for 8 years. I’m set on phones for the next decade.

I’m hoping and praying that Apple will someday make a modern 5G phone with the dimensions and features of a gen 1. But until then this is my phone. It is literally perfect and there’s nothing on the market remotely similar.

Care to explain why they're "trash"? What didn't you like about it? Just the rounded corners?

They aren't trash. I think the OP is trying to say they don't like the way the current SEs look.

I just bought my kids their own SE current generations, and me with my 13 Pro is kind of jealous of how ergonomic, pocketable, and usable (home button) they are.

Edit: OP edited their comment to remove the "they are trash" verbiage.

I stopped caring about the look after I started putting my $650 12 Mini in a Quadlock case which by itself is kind of dorky. I don't even care about the color anymore. Whenever I take it out to clean it looks brand new.

13 mini? I have an iPhone 8 which is just perfect, I switched to my old iPhone 11 Max 2 days ago but I decided to sell it and go back to the 8. No reason at all to upgrade from the 8 except for better camera on the SE’s or minis. All apps and everything runs the same for 1/3 the price.

What? I'm not sure if you're aware, but all the SE models have the same "bubble" exterior you describe, so I'm not sure how one can be better than another in that aspect.

Also what? The 3rd gen iPhone SE has 5G.

the 1st gen SE design looks nothing like the newer models, it was actually based on the iPhone 5 design, see pictures here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_SE_(1st_generation)

The SE 2nd and 3rd gen on the other hand are based on the iPhone 6/7/8 design which is quite different

I also upgraded from an SE 1 to an SE 3, and I've been really happy with mine. The larger size was a little annoying at first but I've adapted.

I too would rather have had a phone with the smaller size of the original SE, but I've found the larger phone an acceptable trade-off for the speed, memory, and battery life upgrades I got going from the SE 1 to the SE 3. Let's just hope the SE 4, if there is one, isn't much bigger.

What do you do about the battery life on old SE's from ebay? Do you upgrade the battery?

Yeah they are honestly 50/50 at this point whether they even work out of the box. Fortunately the battery is really easy to replace.

I 100% agree, the iPhone 5 form factor was and still remains the closest to the perfect phone.

> I’m hoping and praying that Apple will someday make a modern 5G phone with the dimensions and features of a gen 1. But until then this is my phone. It is literally perfect and there’s nothing on the market remotely similar.

That's probably not going to happen realistically; the mini and iPhone 8-form factor SEs are still pretty good phones.

I bet in the future though the current mini iPhones will probably end up being a future generation SE.

I'm a BIG fan of my 13 mini. Bought it last December and absolutely love the small form factor. The battery is no problem at all, even with extensive use. I easily have 20% or more left at the end of the day and it's not even an issue when having it used for CarPlay.

I'm saddened by the idea there will never be a mini again.

What makes you think there will never be a mini again? Yeah Apple won't release a 14 mini from the rumors it seems but there is always a chance of another mini coming down the line a few models from now.

A large phone makes consuming lots of content quite comfortable, from social media to general reading to watching videos. Which means you'll use it a lot. You'll normalize it and won't even bother to move to a larger screen.

Therefore, intentionally buy a sucky phone that adds friction. You'll use it less, in moderation, only for things of some importance. Plus it costs less. Big quality of life improvement.

Remove all non-essential apps to reduce reasons to use it even more. Next, physically detach from the object. Leave it in another room, forget all about it.

Unlearn what has become second nature.

I don't think phones are bad. I don't think having it with you all the time is bad. I think what's bad is letting it draw you in constantly. Install all your dumb apps, but also turn off notifications for anything but direct messages. You'll feel better.

But speaking of "dumb apps"... I specifically resist using my phone as content consumption. Even with a big screen, it kinda sucks compared to a laptop or tablet. Fidelity matters to me.

But also... I like having a small phone because it fits nicely in my pocket. I like having a small phone because I can use it with one hand. It's not even about friction, just ergonomics and getting the hell out of my way.

> retained the same design of the 2014’s iPhone 6

Too bad they didn't retain the design of the 2013 iPhone SE, which was better.

Yes! Although I think by today's standards most of apps would be cramped in that little screen.

1st SE was 2016.

But it is in fact a fantastic design. Still am using mine. :)

The design of the first iPhone SE (which came out it 2016) is that of the iPhone 5 (which came out in 2012).

It really is the best. People would come up to me and say "wow, you have a _classic_ iPhone". Now I'm just waiting for Apple to release an iPhone Classic!

The article mentions the ability to take pictures with blurry backgrounds (aka bokeh).. fwiw, that feature exists on the SE 2nd generation.

To join in the old-man-fist-shaking, the SE 1st generation was a far better size. You can use the SE 2nd generation with one hand, yes, but in practice it involves frequently double-light-tapping the omni-button to slide the screen down halfway. (Or, maybe, I just have small hands, IDK).

Text recognition in the camera also works on the 2020 iPhone SE, along with blurred backgrounds in portrait mode.

I run an SE and it’s great. I like it’s size and its price.

Phones should be cheap and simple. I don’t want to pay more for a phone than a Mac book air.

I am incredibly upset that this person decided to write up an article about "the best iPhone", correctly recognized that the best iPhone has an "SE" in its name, then decided to show a picture of something else? Everyone knows iPhone SE has an ergonomic 4" Retina display, chamfered edges, and a blazing fast A9 processor, NVMe storage, and 2 GB of RAM, similar to its more expensive and slightly older sibling.

Also, it retains TouchID which is superior to FaceID despite being considered a less premium feature. I also rock and love my iPhone SE.

I was hoping to see my phone and I was not disappointed.

> It is very likely that this is the last iPhone SE of its kind, the last “iPhone with a button” (a recurring joke here in Brazil). The reception from critics has been lukewarm and sales, apparently, below expectations. That’s a shame.

This is saddening to read, and with how Apple is it's not like buying more of the same phone as a backup would work -- they'd all stop working at the same time, probably.

The iPhone SE is so cheap that I could throw my phone to the ground for fun and not be bothered about buying a new one except for the annoyance of moving stuff over (which was actually really easy thanks to hard work by apple engineers). It's an intrusive thought (who would want to just throw their phone to the ground for no reason?) but knowing it's easily remedied is so freeing.

We really need to start pushing frugality as a society. I know it's bad for GDP and status games, but some things just... shouldn't be spent on that much. Phones nearing identical quality/functionality are one of them.

> I know it's bad for GDP

That's the broken window fallacy

It looks like the sarcasm went undetected. I thought noting GDP in the same sentence as status games was enough of a signal.

it's not the same, but apple could add the home button on the side, even if they remove it from the front. it could incorporate the fingerprint sensor like the ipad, or they could use an in-display fingerprint sensor, combined with the removal of the front camera, and voilà, their holy grail single slab of glass iphone!

i still use my trusty 6S because i prefer the fingerprint scanner and home button, plus having a real headphone jack is useful every now and then.

> it's not the same, but apple could add the home button on the side, even if they remove it from the front. it could incorporate the fingerprint sensor like the ipad, or they could use an in-display fingerprint sensor, combined with the removal of the front camera, and voilà, their holy grail single slab of glass iphone!

This is such a huge design question -- the button layout of the phone is now muscle memory for me! I do wonder if they'd make such a drastic change.

> i still use my trusty 6S because i prefer the fingerprint scanner and home button, plus having a real headphone jack is useful every now and then.

That's exactly what I upgraded from. I do miss my real headphone jack!

What's your plan for support/new devices going forward?

i'd put the button where the thumb lands on the right side (even though i'd personally prefer the left, most people would prefer the right). i do love that i can put my phone upside down in my back pocket and lift it out with my thumb on the button and have it be open to the home screen when it's face up in front of me.

my plan is, i'm gonna use this thing until it dies! =) but no, i'll probably upgrade next year, as the 6S no longer gets ios updates as of this year but i see no need to upgrade quite yet. i'm not sure if i'll get a 13 mini (assuming no more minis to come) or splurge and get a 15 (that i don't really need, but it'll be new and shiny and irresistable).

Not GP, but I also still run a 6S(+). I recently replaced the battery using an iFixIt kit, which fixed my main complaint with it.

It still runs dog-slow, especially on modern websites, which is both bad and good in that if I keep the Reddit app uninstalled and use New Reddit, the memory leaks crashing my Safari tab is a good indication to stop using it :-) Unfortunately HN doesn't have such a feature...

I didn't hear about the iOS 16 dropping support rumors until now :-(. But apparently the security updates will keep coming for a few years. I guess once apps start dropping support for iOS 15, I'll have to switch.

Can we just have a conversation about how my Pixel 4a's camera at 4K gets smoked by an iPhone SE/iPhone 5 taking video at 1080p... I'm not an iphone guy but I do keep one in my pocket for taking video.

Google has long chosen cheaper, lower-quality camera sensors, knowing that their still image processing is beyond what Apple has on offer and will make up for any deficiencies. Apple tends to go for more expensive, higher-quality camera sensors and less software processing, and that is more clearly visible when shooting video, where image processing requires more processing power than what a phone is currently capable of.

Damn it, Google.

When YouTubers use an Android camera to record some short clip on-the-go, it's always so obvious - it usually has that obvious "jello-vision" rolling shutter feel that old digital cameras had. Meanwhile it took me ages to realize that Doug DeMuro uses an iPhone for like half of his shots (only noticed due to the characteristic green lens reflections)

It's not the jello... it's goddamn sensor noise.

Another iPhone SE fan here. Among all the other benefits listed in this post, there’s also no notch. I hate the notch and I can’t believe Apple industrial design is fine with it being a permanent feature of its products.

I am positive it isn’t permanent - but damn if it isn’t awful, ugly; and the complete antithesis to Apple’s usually extraordinary design decisions.

Actually, the notch fits right in with Apple's design decisions.

Apple loves to have a simple, black and white line art icon for products that allow you to instantly know it's an Apple product. Think original Mac/Plus/SE/Classic look, think iPod with screen and touchwheel, think classic iPhone screen + home button visual. These have broad-based recognition amongst the general public, at least if you were alive during the time. This kind of recognition is what is referred to as 'iconic.' Some other examples of iconic - the Nike Swoosh, the Coca-Cola word mark, the old Absolute vodka advertisements, and of course, the Apple logo itself - words really aren't necessary to convey the meaning (the Coca-Cola logo is recognized even if you don't necessarily read English). When you see one of these iconic marks, it's not just the name, you also cue up emotions and memories - quite a lot that's conveyed via something so simple (especially the Swoosh or the icon of the iPod).

With the move to full-screen iPhones, the line art would be a rounded rectangle on a rounded rectangle, which could be Samsung, LG, One+, etc. Adding the notch makes the design visually distinctive. It's form following function, but done in an elegant way (check out the bezier curves of the corners of the display and the notch - clearly time was spent refining them to make it as elegant as possible). I don't even notice the notch when using my iPhone, but I do notice it when seeing an iPhone from a distance - it's a clue in that you're seeing an iPhone. I don't expect the notch to go away for at least 3-4 more years - and when it does, it will be for a major change in the visual language of the devices.

Not having the Touch ID lose Apple at least one, if not more, upgrades. At least in my case. I’m on an iPhone 7 that’s definitely showing it’s age. I would e upgraded a long time ago but held off “because maybe the next version will have Touch ID back.”

Well, that never happened and I’m now in the position of having to upgrade a phone that’s starting to crash due to battery issues, will probably be out of iOS updates in September and is frankly getting too slow for even simple yet surprisingly power demanding apps.

I don’t know what I’ll upgrade to. Likely an iPhone, but which? I hate buying something that’s not the current generation but the thought of having to deal with Face ID multiple times a day leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Can confirm, moved from an iPhone 7 to a 13 mini, Face ID fails ~40% of the time, it sucks.

The iPhone SE, described in the article, has Touch ID.

Yeah, but “not latest tech”. Hard to swallow that.

I guess it depends on which “tech” specifically you care about. The jump from an iPhone 7 to the 3rd gen SE will probably feel amazing, considering it has the same SoC as all the iPhone 13 models. Sure, the SE doesn’t have the nice camera system like the high end models, but again, coming from a 7, it will be quite an improvement for you.

Most of latest tech? I found it to be a great upgrade coming from the iPhone 8: overall faster, slightly better battery life, better camera with a few new tricks. As I wrote in the article, I wouldn't mind upgrading every four or five years to new versions of this phone with newer internals. It just works.

why do you care about latest tech if it doesn't do what you want?

I'll second the new SE recommendation. It's the best iPhone available right now unless your most important use case is the camera, which it can't be for you, because you'd have upgraded a long time ago otherwise.

I agree! I stopped getting iPhones because I thought 1000£ was too much when a google pixel was 300£. However I got the SE for 500, which I thought was fair, and I love that it's just simple, no messing around with 3 cameras etc

Tbh you don't really notice the amount of camera's (my iPhone 12 mini is my first iPhone and my first phone with > 1 camera, I also got it because I like smaller, good Phones.), it switches automatically when zooming.

Can we officially lay to rest the egregiously stupid, but often parroted economic notion of "consumer preference" being the ultimate driver of everything? By now it's quite clear that "the range and variety of cell phones people would buy" is far wider that what we actually have.

I am still rocking an iPhone SE, first generation. However, it has done a few troubling things as of late and I guess I must prepare myself to get a third generation. I feel like five years is a decent span for a phone. And so I have a screen protector and an Otterbox on order. Finding out that it won't support IOS 16 makes this kind of an inevitable purchase.

TouchID, plus the tiny size, makes it a one-hander if I want, and I like that.

I am unsure what I will do with my original phone.

New SE is... fine?

~10-20% better on every dimension than my old android phone.

The new SE is THE phone. It's a good decision.

I’ll have to give up on my original SE as it won’t support iOS 16. But it’s the best phone I ever had. The others look comically large. And Touch ID is awesome.

I rocked the previous iteration of the SE for just over a year since my previous phone was in dire need of a battery replacement and I didn’t want to figure out how Apple was handling that mid-pandemic. I reasoned at the time that I needed a phone with Touch ID because I didn’t yet have an Apple Watch, and I was using my phone as my wallet.

It was a good phone that served me well primarily as 1. A wallet 2. An Overcast player and 3. A phone in approximately that order whose shortcomings became immediately apparent the moment I started going outside and socializing without a mask again in the Summer of 2021. The screen and battery for example were both downgrades from my 6s+.

I’m rocking an iPhone 13 Pro Max now primarily because I demand a lot more of my phone when I’m actually not living in a cave, and I fully appreciate having a giant screen, an enormous battery, a bunch of power saving tech like the variable refresh rate screen and a very fancy triple-lens camera. All things that are irrelevant when your phone lives in a dock for a year. The magnetic wallet attachments are a nice touch that carry a few cards but also serve to round out the back of the phone in such a way as to provide a better grip and stabilize the phone on a surface.

The iPhone SE is a very good phone and a very good value, but “best” changes depending on your circumstances and lifestyle. I couldn’t rock an SE without constantly managing the battery, something which was an issue when I wanted to record some video at my best friend’s wedding reception after carefully micromanaging the battery all day. With the 13 Pro Max I can walk out early in the morning and not even think about the battery at any point in the day, letting the phone do all the background tasks it wants to make my life easier, downloading anything at all in the background over 5G and have plenty of charge left when I get home in the evening. It feels like a phone without compromises, but all of that can be mooted by a change in life circumstances.

I can't understand how just about everyone in America is okay with needing 2 hands to use a phone. If they ever get rid of the mini line I don't know what I'll do.

The article is correct in that the iPhone SE is the best iPhone, but it's the 2016 version which is best :)

Cheaper, smaller, still runs iOS 15, and has a headphone jack.

You can't do anything worthwhile with the iPhone. I can't side load applications, unless "jailbroken", no browser with extensions support (except "Orion with deplorable support- even if its in development), adblocking using AdGuard is terrible because of inherent limitations, incremental "updates" are only to bump up software version and too many restrictive frameworks around Apple owned applications. Each software application is pivoting towards subscriptions making it impossible to either keep a track or keep them in check. The HN forum should educate users about the limitations hurting the users but instead I see users seeped deeply in the process.

I bought a OnePlus 3 when it was the cool underdog phone for $450. That was 6 years ago. After 5.5 years the battery started draining faster than usual so I replaced it. The only reason I had to switch phones was because my children chewed and drooled all over it, destroying the volume buttons.

With such a solid phone, I went back to oneplus to get the latest and greatest. So much has changed in this time spam. In their latest phone, they don't even have the alert slider. I reluctantly got the 9 pro.

Longer version: https://idiallo.com/blog/oneplus3-6-years-later

I still have my OnePlus 3T, my first Android (coming from Windows Phone, RIP). Running Lineage and microg, although all but only a couple of apps are from F-Droid. I haven't seen any need to upgrade yet

I got the iPhone 13 Mini. I suspect that it will be the last of that form factor.

I use a first-gen SE (tiny screen) as my low-end test (iOS 14).

The only reason my spouse and I both bought 13 Minis is because we suspected the same. We otherwise were fine to hold onto X-gen iPhones for a little longer (despite their carrier-deck screens). I hope we're all wrong about that "no more Minis" thing, but if we aren't, it's going to be "cold dead hands" time[0].

[0] As in, "pry it from my...", for those not familiar with the saying.

I don't see any reason to get rid of my 12 mini yet. I hope I never will.

I'm on the same boat. I am considering getting the 13 mini though since this seems like the last of this form factor for a while.

Upgraded my 8 to it and not happy with it too.

The problem with the new SE is that it comes on the heels of the old SE. My first smartphone was a 2nd gen SE that I bought around July 2020. I plan on keeping it as long as I kept my previous dumbphones: 4-6 years (i.e. however long the battery lasts). If they keep releasing SE's at the current pace, my next phone will be a 4th or 5th generation SE. There is literally no feature they could add that would entice me to replace it before then.

I'll allow that battery life might sway me to pull the trigger after 3-4 years, but barring that my phone more than meets my needs as-is.

Know your customers, folks.

On the other hand, the delta between the resale price of an old SE and the purchase price of a new one makes upgrades very cheap.

I got an iPhone SE last year (my first iPhone) and so far it has been a great phone. Probably one of the best phone's I've had and well worth the value. I've had some of the flagship Pixels, and they were fine. For my own use case, cost for flagship models versus what I use it for don't match up very well. The iPhone SE is great in this area. It isn't an expensive phone and powerful. Sure it has less features than the flagship iPhones, but they are features I wouldn't use anyways.

As someone who held onto the iPhone 5S for years after its EOL and then held onto the iPhone SE first gen for as long as possible (until a cracked screen and second shot battery forced an upgrade) I can confidently say this guy is missing out.

I held on to the old phone because of my thinking of the "stability and perfection" of its old design.

I avoided the iPhone 6/7/8/SEv2 era like the plague because of just how unfinished it felt. It was slippery, it felt uncomfortable in the hand, and I hear it was not the best at repairability. It also just does not look good in my opinion.

At the time THAT phone felt like the one was was unfinished. Now this guy is saying its the one that is "like a well-finished product". Its the same design that I felt was unfinished. I conclude that this talk of finished vs unfinished design is just a matter of taste and perception. There is nothing that fundamentally changed from iPhone 8 vs iPhone SEv2/3. It still inherits my complaints from above.

In reality he just hasn't put in the time to give the iPhone 13 and iPhone 13 mini designs an honest chance. They are the current "unfinished" designs. A few years down the line he will be saying the same thing about that design once it comes out in iPhone SE v4(or 5/6/7 whatever).

Now to be fair there is something great about small cheap phones that pack a lot of value. It is just what it is. Last gen design that some prefer while others do not. Its not anything special nor "perfected".

Even though I really like the SE, obviously there are infinite ways to make a good phone. Turns out this old one works for me, plus it's cheap, really fast, and I'm used to it — what else can I ask for a phone?

Pricing is a very strong factor here, I have to say. Brazil almost always tops the “more expensive iPhone in the world” lists. SE's price is really fair, kind of an outlier in Apple's lineup.

It seems like pricing is the only real factor there based on what I am seeing in the article. If the Mini design was the same price then all of a sudden it seems like that would be the "great design".

Its not even really an amazing deal. In exchange for the latest CPU you get essentially 8 year old LCD (with slightly newer contrast ratio from ~7 years ago), the same old case design with same old grade of aluminum and they exclude U1 co-processor. Also, camera seems like its from iPhone 7/8 as well(5-6 yrs old but could be wrong about this)? Its only a good deal because iOS is such a valuable ecosystem and the fact that it grants you entry into that ecosystem at such a low price makes the phone so much more alluring than it really is.

re: "only real factor"... Among other differences between the SE and the Mini, the Mini doesn't have touch ID button, does it? The article mentions "I have already argued in the past that I prefer this iPhone model over any newer one, Face ID capable." So it would seem that the lack of touch ID on the Mini would be a detriment to the author.

Switched from iPhone SE 2016 to an iPhone Mini, tbh the loss of touch ID alone was enough to mean it felt like a big quality of life drop. Less so now that I don't have to be wearing a mask so often but still feels significantly worse and I'd happily trade some screen space for it.

I suspect a big chunk of why the SE is still around with its current design is a concern of how put off some older users may be from having to adjust to a less consistent unlocking system.

Its been 5 years since FaceID came out. My bet is on the fact that they need a low cost model in the lineup and they still have the old tooling for the iPhone 8 series so TouchID just happens to be there. Apple is not the type of company that keeps legacy things around if they can help it regardless of how some users might feel.

I’d absolutely buy a mini, if it had Touch ID in the power button.

The poor ergonomics of Face ID just don’t compare.

Curious about this quote:

> The only feature that Apple has denied for any reason other than technical is night mode when taking pictures at low light, absent here.

I was under the impression that night mode more or less required the 2+ camera package of the current phones in order to gather enough light, depth, etc. information for it work well. Given what the author said, I guess I was wrong about that... anyone with some image processing knowledge able to elaborate a bit on how night mode works?

I had the same iPhone SE for about a year or so. I would have said all the same things as the author about it while I owned it. But, after it got damaged and I replaced it with an iPhone 13 Pro I have to say I much prefer the Pro. The only thing I miss is Touch ID but the 120hz oled screen, multiple cameras, and far better battery life more than make up for it. I don't mean to be a downer about the SE. I was just happily surprised with this new phone.

The problem with the iPhone SE is that it’s not a particularly good value proposition when you shop around for deals in the real world rather than just looking at pure MSRP.

Carriers including MVNOs will unload phones like the iPhone 12 mini for a very similar price.

Or, if you aren’t requiring the small size, you can find a lot better functionality and battery life with phones like the iPhone 11 and 12 that Apple still sells and, again, you can find at very similar price points.

I would set aside nostalgia for older designs or resistance to new features and design in this case because the SE is just too ancient. It’s a way for Apple to continue getting use out of old manufacturing equipment and not any sort of competitive offering against Apple themselves.

The camera, arguably the most important smartphone feature, is one of those ancient components. There’s no night mode, a major downside.

So is the screen, a really ancient LCD where the iPhone 12 mini gets you OLED that makes viewing everything easier.

The iPhone SE also has just about the worst battery life of the whole lineup, which is a major, major issue.

[quote] It is very likely that this is the last iPhone SE of its kind, the last “iPhone with a button” ... The reception from critics has been lukewarm and sales, apparently, below expectations. That’s a shame. [/quote]

That might be because people who really wanted a small phone might have gone for the 12/13 mini which is even smaller. I never considered the 8 "small".

Maybe, but mini version will be phased out in iPhone 14 lineup. Besides, iPhone SE is way cheaper, and I suspect part of its success is due to pricing.

I'm one of the few who believe Apple will bring the mini back as the next SE in a couple years.

Yeah, SE is the cheap one atm while the Minis are the small ones. I got two Minis for the ladies of the house. Because they wanted small phones.

Both the SE and the Mini sell pretty well by any other company's standards except Apple, I think...

I'd be happy with an iphone 14 or 15 mini. (I'm not ready to get rid of my 12), but for similar reasons as described in this post.

I feel like I could use an iPhone 13 mini for at least 3 more years. I used an iPhone 6S plus from Nov 2015 to May 2020, a 2020 iPhone SE from May 2020 to Nov 2021, and I gave that to my kid and took my wife’s iPhone XS, which has been in use since Sep 2018.

I want a 13 mini size phone, but I am waiting for the XS to stop being usable.

I just want them to keep selling a mini size phone, whether it be 13 or 15. I see no difference until it has been at least 4 years in my use cases.

The SE is great, both my parents received one each for their birthdays this year. Nice bright display, a button to help escape any stuck programs, and a great new camera for them to take pictures of caravans, cactuses, and kids. I’ve got an iPhone 11 and will probably sidegrade to an SE in the next year or two, and the space in my pockets will thank me for it.

I think this article sums things up nicely.

The SE is a very right design.

I think it’s its soft edges that I really like.

I’d be happy if they could swap the lightning for USB-c and squeeze in a slightly larger screen but even if they can’t I’d be happy if they just kept roughly as is.

The SE is dull and boring in all the most wonderful ways. It’s the phone you buy if you don’t want to talk to people about phones.

Yes I chose the SE for my latest phone after the X packed up (it was a refurb and I think that was the reason).

Anyway the main things I like:

* Price per performance (Paid about US$482 for this from a discount retailer).

* No notch

* Older-style interface and gestures which I think are more user-friendly. E.g. double tap button to see running apps.

* A button!

What I dislike:

* When playing some games the screen seems more friction-y which can hamper precision.

Besides the economic / niche issues - I love my iPhone mini, I loved my Xperia compact, apparently people on HN also love their minis, SEs, and compacts, but nobody else does - there are real technical problems with making small phones.

We seem to have reached a local minima with phone mainboard/CPU size. Generation over generation, the last 2-3 years worth of phones share similarly sized logic boards. So, as more and more internal footprint is dedicated to camera hardware, less and less is available for battery.

As phone chipsets appear to have also bottomed out on TDP and idle power, this means that either battery life gets worse, cameras get cut even more, or phones get bigger. Unless or until Apple make a small-phone _specific_ processor and introduce a new process with a stripped-down CPU (which will make the same HN readers mad, eye-roll), we're back to giant phones for now.

For years I want Apple to release a grid of four phones

            consumer    | pro
    ====================+==============
    ~6"   ‖ iPhone      | iPhone Pro 
    ------+-------------+--------------
    ~5"   ‖ iPhone mini | iPhone mini Pro

I get that battery will be always better on the larger phones, but I don't see a reason why the best camera should be available only on the largest phone.

People who want small phones don't necessarily want a cheap phone and people who want a cheap phone don't necessarily want a small one.

Apple has done this before, when the mac lineup was all over the place and they rehired Steve. He cleared it up into this simple grid:

              consumer | pro
    ===================+==============
    desktop ‖ iMac     | Power Mac G3 
    --------+----------+--------------
    laptop  ‖ iBook    | Powerbook G3

Their “pro” phones are also for consumers.

“Pro” hasn’t meant “professional” in a very long time.

There's no such thing as a professional phone user. In Apple's nomenclature "pro" means the more expensive and better model.

My point exactly.

> Almost nobody notices you have a new phone; when someone does, the conversation ends quickly and invariably in a sentence like “it’s just like the old one, only faster”.

I never understood the mindset of getting a new phone so other people will notice. Do you remember what brand and model your friends use? If so, why do you care?

> It is a crazy strategy of Apple to put the “brains” of its most expensive phone, the iPhone 13 Pro Max (+USD 1.099), in its entry model, low cost (USD 429). No other company does this.

It will be even crazier for Apple to design and manufacture an entire separate line of chips just for this phone. Reusing the chip currently in production is convenient which is why other companies do this as well (DSLR sensors and processors instantly come to mind).

Good for you for liking your phone. But this reads a bit too young and eager. Good luck with your reviews going forward.

My iPhone SE is the 2nd gen one. I love this phone, despite some ocasional lags when I try to do some app switch or when I try to take a picture suddenly. Is anyone here facing these same problems? I really enjoy this phone, but seems Apple is trying to force me to make an unnecessary upgrade.

I bought a second gen SE on craigslist while waiting for a screen for my Xs Max. I’m using it right now as a secondary device and don’t notice any particularly common lags on the SE2.

Battery health is down to 89%, meaning it was a little annoying to use as a daily while traveling but that was my only complaint (and I’d have no problem replacing the battery to alleviate that if I wanted to keep using it as primary).

Apple is missing out by not placing a fingerprint reader on the apple logo on the back of the case. So stupid.

Masks are still a thing, and while I have a 12 mini, it doesn’t open with my masked face (although it’s fine when I’m wearing sunglasses, weirdly enough). The fact that it _can_ open with a masked face makes me question the security of face detection.

I want my fingerprint sensor back. Masks will not be going away ( corona resurgence and potentially a monkey pox pandemic anyone? )

To this end, I think the SE is a great phone, outside of its size. It should be smaller. Hell, the 12 mini could’ve been even smaller but no dice.

I’ll probably not buy another phone until a much smaller one is released. I will even go to Android based phones if one releases in three or four years

It’s not like there are plenty of small androids around… It seems that the best phone today is SE (old model with iPhone 4 design). Not sure if it’s still supported or sold, but it should be powerful enough to support calls and sms with enough frame rate.

Masks have gone away already. It's time to move on. Monkeypox requires you to wear a mask on your ass, so that won't interfere with FaceID operation.

Maybe for you, in the YSA. Not do for many other countries

> The single camera, by the way, is very close to the main one on the top models. Apple’s marketing gives the impression that every year the new iPhone cameras leave the old ones in the dust. The truth is, I’m having a hard time distinguishing between the photos of the iPhone SE, those from my girlfriend’s iPhone 11 and my iPhone 8.

It’s a bit odd to compare the iPhone SE to the iPhone 11, and then say it’s the same as the “top models”. The jump in image quality and image processing is pretty significant from the iPhone 11 to the iPhone 13, in my opinion. And video is significantly improved, too. Maybe it’s not something that everyone would notice or care much about, but for me it was well worth the upgrade.

Best iPhone for me is the one that takes the best pictures. I have small kids growing up and one thing that you might regret is not taking enough quality pictures with the “always available” camera. For this reason I also have “live” photos feature.

When I went looking for a phone for my wife, the only requirement was that it was ‘not too big’.

In a whole store full of smartphones, this left literally two options. The iPhone SE, and some weird Chinese tiny model.

I’m just sad that everything needs to be so huge…

I have an iPhone 13 mini and an iPad mini. The iPhone is a handy size but my eyes are ageing so it is not always easy to read. But Face ID is just annoying. The iPad’s combination of Touch ID and USB-C is much more convenient.

I wish the "buy it for life" movement had real momentum in phones. No I don't want some super modular phone that could be upgraded as parts wear out. I don't have anything against those, but I'd like my phone to actually be waterproof...

What I want is something with the build quality of an iPhone. Something so well made that they get the same battery life as other smartphones despite having half the battery size. But something that I can trust will last a really long time. But everything about the phone industry seems specifically structured against that possibility

The issue is battery life degradation and 3rd party software aims for newer devices.

> in its entry model, low cost (USD 429).

The iPhone SE isn't "low cost" considering the alternatives from android land, and the disappointing battery life. I think a big reason this phone is so well liked on here is the general woeful state of the budget, compact phone market.

With LG gone, Google Nexus gone, HTC gone, OnePlus's descent into mediocrity, and Motorola churning out huge phone after huge phone, options are slim. The new Zenfone 9 looks solid, but that's a flagship phone. I hope they release a smaller, more-budget focused version next.

> The iPhone SE isn't "low cost" considering the alternatives from android land

It absolutely is. The cost is still relative to how much marginally better flagships cost, not to how much a significantly worse barely-smartphone costs.

The statement is correct. The iPhone SE is Apple's entry model, low cost iPhone.

Absolutely, in the whole market it would probably be a mid-range smartphone.

I agree with most of what you said. But the way "low" cost (not "lower" cost, which is the wording I'd use) is used to describe a $430 phone with these specs is a little disingenuous to me. Maybe it's not that this thing is cheap, but that spending $800+ on phones for the average person is absolutely ridiculous.

It bothers me that Apple has so much mindshare among the public that people only judge their phones/devices in comparison to Apple devices, while ignoring any non-Apple options.

> It bothers me that Apple has so much mindshare among the public that people only judge their phones/devices in comparison to Apple devices, while ignoring any non-Apple options.

There’s actually a lot of hidden cost to switching platforms. For me there are 2:

1. I hate Google more than I hate Apple (irrelevant for most people)

2. I’m balls deep in Apple’s ecosystem. Never mind the hardware. All paid apps? Gone. All in-app purchases? Gone. Everything you’ve bought on iTunes store? Difficult to access.

Definitely low cost comparing to any other current iPhone. For me, Android isn't an option (too deep into Apple ecosystem).

It's the cheapest phone that's actually worth buying and I say this as somebody who really wanted to like android and used it for at least five years, especially during the golden age of Nexus 5. The iPhone SE is exactly what a new Nexus 5 should be if anybody would be willing to build it, but nobody will.

This is precisely the reason I have an iPhone 12 mini. Form factor is just good to drive with one hand. I like the cornered edges more as it slides less easily from my hand. Price is just right. Build quality is better than the SE. All in all, really happy. I’ve jumped from iPhone 6 to the 12 mini. That’s how long I can handle a phone. When I did the iPhone 6 battery replacement deal for €35 (?) my gps was broken afterwards so I got a replacement refurbished phone. So you could say I used two iPhone 6’s, but still…

The original SE was my first iPhone. I had no objection to TouchID, and loved the square sides. But overall, the screen was too small for me. I kept it for several years, though. My next phone was a XR, love FaceID, hated the glass back and rounded sides. Now I have a 13 Pro, still don't like so much glass, but I have a nice case for it and love the cameras. The size is ideal for my older eyes. But the whole idea of still having the SE as part of the lineup is fantastic.

Probably true, but the 11 is not exactly the newest iPhone out there. The 13 has noticeably better low-light performance, when I compare it to my old 11 Pro. L

Yeah, it was the only one available here for a comparison.

Low light in the (only?) scenario on which iPhone SE's camera really lags behind the more expensive iPhones. I can't understand how Apple gave it the portrait mode, but not the night/low light mode. It seems something dependent on processor power, which it has plenty.

I use my phone extensively throughout the day but modern phones are good enough for most things. All I want is an excellent camera built in, the higher optical zoom the better. It can be the most boring thing in the world otherwise. I hate that I always must shell out for a flagship phone to get this. Sure, I have a really nice camera too, but the best camera is the one you have on you and it’s not practical to lug around something extra at all times.

I LOVE the iPhone SE. Excellent phone for the value. I had the OG one (the one with the iPhone 5 form factor) and finally framed it on my collection of iPhones once Apple deprecated it.

I love the Mini even more. I'm only using the Pro for the wide angle lens, but I'm ditching it once the Mini gets the triple camera array, if it ever does.

I agree that it’s the best one they sell now. I just had to retire my iPhone SE first-generation from 2016 which was finally starting to fail on me. Coming from that, the newer 3rd gen SE still feels too large in my hands. My biggest gripe, though, is the glass back instead of the old aluminum back. I think this smoothness is the reason the thing keeps falling out of my pocket no matter where I sit or what I’m wearing. The thing will not stay put!

I still use a gen 1 SE; they only cost 100$, and you can still install the latest iOS. It's physically smaller than the later generation SE, and it still works just fine (I had to replace the battery when it expanded, but this is common enough). The only reason for me to upgrade would be to get a nicer camera, or perhaps to have a better selection for phone cases.

The phone is great, but the form factor is terrible. The phone is slippery, hard to pick up and hard to hold in hand. It's such a "looks over function" failure on Apple's part. No wonder that, with iPhone 13, they eventually went back to the old design (with right angles instead of all the slippery roundiness). No we have to wait another 5 years till that form factor trickles down to the SE line.

The ironic part was when android manufacturers started mimicking this design; it was a factor in making me go back to the iPhone. I have had my current one for over a year, and the only falls it ever suffered were from my pocket in some pants when I sit in my office chair and start lazily reclining. If it ever slipped from my hand, it was so rare that I can't remember.

If they next WWDC keynote announced double the battery life and half the weight, that would be great, but what would really inspire me would be a brand deal with Levi's. If they could put iPhone-compatible pockets in women's jeans… wow, what a future.

Even the SE is a tad too big for one hand for an average-height woman (that is, me) and sticks out of most of my pockets, but it's the best Apple has to offer me.

The best iPhone, or Android phone, you can get is the one you inherit for free from a family member or a friend. I recently upgraded my 7-year old Moto G play, which was getting a bit flaky, to a 4-year old Samsung S9 that I got from my brother. It works just fine, and will probably serve me for 3 more years before I need to upgrade again.

I'm literally sitting at the Apple store waiting for my newly purchased IPhone SE to sync to the cloud, opened up my laptop and saw this.

I was deliberating whether to buy the IPhone 13, but with the IPhone 14 coming out next month, the IPhone SE is a good temporary phone. It's less than half the price of the IPhone 13 Pro, so it was a no brainer.

I much prefer the SE form factor to the notched design, but the latter boasts a significantly better camera system. If they put the dual lens setup from the 12/13 in a new SE then I’d buy it in a heartbeat. Kids are only little once - capturing those moments with a better camera trumps most other things in my book.

I have a 12 mini. It's so good. Then I got the 13 pro for the better camera and I can't go back to 60hz displays. It's like something is visibly wrong with any screen that doesn't do more than 60hz any more. And the 14" macbook pro has higher refresh rate but the ghosting is so bad it renders it pretty much moot.

I just miss that 8th inch jack... and I would have bought one if it had a jucier camera... still love it tho SEsquad for life

In a novel by an obviously feminist author, they were having smaller phones when women had to make phones. As if phones do fit in men's hands -_-

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53717123-the-end-of-men

I guess in this utopia, women still don't get reasonable sized pockets?

That's pretty much how it went in the 50's feminist bastion Devil Girl From Mars.

Genuine question, what's the best phone to look at currently if the camera is your main focus on a device? I'm past the point of caring about speed or storage, as its all much of a muchness now I feel... But I want an actual camera that just happens to have a phone attached to it.

iPhone 13 pro,

Not everyone’s choice but I love it

Photo or video? I heard that there are many competitive devices for photo, but iPhone is seems to the best for video.

Yeah mainly still photo, it would be super handy to have video that can be used along side our other camera footage though (a friend and I do a lot of automotive mechanical youtubing so having phone video is occasionally handy). I had heard that the iphone is really good with it, I might need to have a play with the 13.

To everyone who is running old Android devices, do you just not care about security updates, or is there something I’m missing? Been thinking of switching from my dying iPhone 7 to a GrapheneOS device, but the extremely short support window has given me pause.

Also, any phone recommendations?

On a related note: recently bought an iphone and specifically bought the standard one and not the pro. now I've noticed that macro shots are a lot lower quality than on (older) iphone pros or even my old samsung s8. does anybody know whether that's on purpose?

The lack of fingerprint sensor on latest iPhones is very disappointing. My trusty MotoZ4 has it directly in the screen and I love it so much that I refuse to buy myself any other phone that doesn't have fingerprint sensor on the front panel or built in the screen.

Agree with OP completely. Also, with iCloud I found the 64G version absolutely usable. I always used to max out the memory on my phones because I have a huge photo album, but iCloud support swaps the pictures in and out of memory quickly and transparently.

I have this phone and my only gripe with it is the button. It isn't as tactile as previous models so it doesn't feel like you've actually clicked it. I'm assuming this has to do with water resistance but I'm not certain.

That and the tact switch was a common failure point.

I have the home button haptic set at 3 and unless i'm thinking about it, its good enough to trick my brain into the same feeling.

It isn’t a real button for like three versions now (since iphone 8 or so) - it’s a haptic sensor which i think also plays fake sound through the speaker. Since it’s the only iphone that even has center “button” now it’s still the best phone imo

Very happy with my SE 2, other than battery life. A $20-on-clearance external pack, which is about the size of the phone and can be stowed away, makes for a good combination. The larger phones look nice, but that's not enough.

This is exactly why I like the 13" Apple Silicon Macbook Pro, it looks boring, if you saw me using one you'd probably assume it was 5 years old and had an i5 in it or something, but actually an insanely good laptop.

I am happy with my iphone8 which is equivalent of SE with a larger screen, however saddened by the fact that I always have to clean up its charging port and its square casing of the original wired headphone I prefer to use..

Still think the best iPhone ever made was the 4S. Back then, mac products still were 100% focused. Since jobs, things are getting worse. Stability has gone down, and focus is mostly in "unnecessary" features.

I have the last iPhone SE and it's great, except I have monsterly large hands, and I shoulda thought about that before buying this phone. Just paid it off, so that's nice for the ol' phone bill.

Recently replaced a screen and battery on my old iphone 8 and it has become my daily driver. It works really well! I don't really think a phone needs to be any bigger than this design.

I Like my iPhone SE (currently 3rd gen, previously 1st gen), but goodness is it ever slippery. It’s lovely to look at, but tough to use without covering it in a case.

The best is still the 6s because it has a 3.5mm headphone jack.

I have the iphone 8 - love it. I'm planning to own it for the long haul and make the jump from 8 to 18 (when it comes out).

Thank you Tim for making this a 10 year wait, and not 20

Great writing. I just feel a new design is needed. I feel the constant movement between straight edges and curved is annoying and costly for the end user.

From article: “The 3rd gen iPhone SE can take pictures with the background blurred and identify text directly from the viewfinder.”

What does author mean on both here?

Right phone.

Wrong edition.

1st gen SE forever.

I am using a phone I bought almost 4 years ago for exactly 400 USD (thanks, Gmail, for great search feature). I am looking for a reason to buy a new one, but cannot imagine anything except for slightly degraded battery. I am well off financially, but just can't imagine a reason to buy a phone for $1000, not to mention rumored $1200 for iPhone 14 (yes, I am aware of USD inflation for last 4 years).

Ah, and it is a flagship Xiaomi, with great AMOLED display, enough RAM and storage and best (for the time) Snapdragon SoC.

I don’t know how you guys can stand the iPhone SE, the thick bezels at the top and bottom make it feel so claustrophobic.

I bought an SE 3 as my first iPhone recently. Very happy with it, it’s hard to find a good, small phone these days.

I paddleboard so I bought a iPhone 12 mini so it doesn't weigh down my pocket that much.

It continued the spirit of the SE.

The original SE is still kicking. If not for the battery, I'd stick to it for another 3-5 years.

I still miss the headphone jack.

I love the box design of iPhone 12/13 mini, otherwise would have gone for this!

Counterpoint: any phone made in the past 5 years is just about the same. I have a working 6 year old Motorola with a sturdy battery and I've never felt it lacked anything I need. It runs modern websites and apps just fine. I honestly have no idea what people are talking about when they compare phone features these days. There hasn't been a useful innovation since fingerprint unlock.

I miss 3D Touch too! Great feature but awkwardly integrated and promoted

I have an OG SE and when it dies I'll find another used one!

Love the S.

Carry the Galaxy S21. S is the work phone, but did I mention I love it?

IMO, the only thing missing from the SE is the U1 chip for NI

To me, SE stands for "Steve's Edition".

Steve Jobs was right about the size of the iPhone.

I'm still rocking my pixel 2. Best phone I've had and still going strong with the original battery. Great android experience, not too big and the photos are still awesome.

100. Knew I wasn’t alone on this!

yeah i wish i had one of these over the 13 pro. i basically never use the camera.

The best phone is no phone.

The 6s.

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