Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP
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Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.
According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, dealers average about 2k in profit on a new car. Many are adding market adjustments of 5-20k. They're multiplying the profit they make each sale. It feels very wrong, but Ford really can't do too much especially if they're all doing it in an area.
https://www.onlineautodealered.com/career-central/how-much-d...
They are making it fairly clear that the dealer ultimately gets to set the sales price, even for reservation from before the launch.
I guess due to demand and regular price increases, they don't need to worry about customers bailing out, and they can keep adding to their margin as the market rises
I paid MSRP for a Mach E I ordered online with relatively little fanfare, albeit with a ~10 month wait and a model year bump (for which Ford gave me a discount off the slightly higher MSRP).
How are you liking the Y?
Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
$20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
All fees are a way of raising a price.
There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference.
It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
A per-transaction credit card fee doesn't raise the unit price. Getting hung up on the evolving details of gas stations and credit card processing isn't the point.
The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
Because my understanding is they own the cars, once they're delivered from the manufacturer. They own the asset.
Because the manaufacturer decided to not raise the price. This means the next person now has the ability to raise the price.
You also seem to forget the fact that much of those market conditions are a result of anti-competitive and anti-consumer laws guaranteeing their the status a middle men by force.
If for example consumers were able to buy directly from manufacturers but chose to pay more at a dealership because they thought the extra cost was worth some surplus value provided then you might have a point.
In my not so humble opinion, while the used market can do what it may, MSRP is MSRP. This goes for GPUs as much as it goes for cars. I understand shortages. I am ok with waiting lists. I do not appreciate profiteering. Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my business in the future.
The S stands for “suggested”, and that suggestion is based on an inherently fallible prediction of future market conditions.
> I do not appreciate profiteering.
Capitalism is profiteering. The MSRP is profiteering. The only difference is who is profiteering, and when.
I guess I don't get why people think they should be immune from paying a market price.
When you negotiate salary do you go for the most you can negotiate? Or do you accept minimum wage because someone somewhere suggested it to you? Why do you think any other transaction should be different? It's a brand new luxury SUV, it's not baby milk.
> MSRP is MSRP
Guess what... the MSRP includes profit (gasp!). As much profit as they thought they could get away with when it was set.
> Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my business in the future.
Ok so great this already limits how much they can charge. I guess someone else somewhere is willing the pay the price though, or they wouldn't charge it.
I think your logic is basically 'I don't want to pay that much'. Ok well they don't want to sell it for less, and it's their property. You'll have to go elsewhere. Sounds like you're happy with that so what's the problem?
Which is a completely valid reaction and the risk the dealership takes, and ultimately when the price rises to the point where they no longer attract buyers, the market corrects. That will be soon as the fed raises interest rates.
And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before.
And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways.
I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks.
But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3].
[1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-...
[2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-...
[3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
People here love passive aggression.
[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
If you order a Toyota Camry and the transporter drops off a Ferrari at your door screaming WELL IT SAYS FERRARI ON RIGHT THERE ON THE CAR isn't in any way a valid argument.
They're just going to tell you that's nice but so what that's not where the discrepancy is in the first place. The order says Toyota, the invoice say Toyota, the transport slip says Toyota, etc, etc.
Same thing if any enterprise hardware or software is provisioned incorrectly. Same thing with telecom.
Same thing with cars. If the wrong car gets dropped off they can and absolutely will send a truck to retrieve it.
Will they tear down the building built with those materials 3 years ago to do it?
Versus the dealership(Larry h Miller) advertising the car for $40k on their site, and not telling you about the $15k fee until you're in their office.
It was worth it for us to pay 7k for the upgrade to the Tesla, and to get something much faster.
Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
Not even sure what I’d replace it with, but there’s nothing I’m looking at that comes close to justifying it’s cost versus just keeping this running.
My country does not care about the climate (Poland).
Thats just reality. One man’s trash is anothers man’s treasure.
Im not saying its good but thats just how it is.
Poland was always a market for used cars from Germany, this will not change.
The aluminum engine is great for fuel efficiency, and the chain transmission instead of belt is convenient.
My previous Auris got stolen so I shopped around for a while, but couldn't get the proper price/getting out of my way ratio out of anything else.
Instead of paying a huge premium on a new car, I bought a zippy electric scooter. Lots of fun, and faster than driving when traffic is heavy.
And in my case, it also happens to have 100% support from Openpilot, which is a requirement for me.
Just a heads up.
I've got a first-gen Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV which only gets like 17miles (ok more like 14 if the heat or A/C is on which is basically always) on electric but it makes a huge difference in overall mpg since I use the ICE on the highway and switch to electric in-town.
My one concern is that there's a huge question mark about what happens when the battery degrades over time. I'm happy to replace it when that happens but will be really bummed if my only option at that point is to put the same lower-capacity battery in.
Sort of silly to hope for but if I'm lucky the battery will prematurely degrade within the 8-year hybrid warranty and they'll replace it for free.
[1] https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylind...
I can accept that the observed behavior on my end is "pay up or wait".
What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups.
Why?
Many people would rather their money go to the people actually designing and building the product their buying, ideally maximizing the value of their purchase.
From many consumers perspective they're just paying extra for someone to rip them off in order to be rip them off again later.
If dealership provided an genuine value the should be able to charge what they charge in fair competitive market conditions.
For example if you purchase a car at a local dealer all the sales tax goes to the local taxing body (city / sometimes county). This generates a huge amount of money for public services.
Additionally the employees of the dealerships typically live in the same region further spreading the wealth.
Yes buying direct from dealer would be cheaper but eliminating dealerships nationwide would have a devastating effect on local municipalities.
Manufacturers also have employees in the regions they sell because they need staff for their delivery and service centers at minimum.
The history of how we got here with dealership laws is long and complicated but basically boils down to starting with something useful like a verifiable local agent in a time when many small car manufacturers were selling essentially carts with primitive engines through mail order catalogs. Then slowly gaining political and economic power and protecting that power through local and state laws limiting competition and legally enforced monopolies. In short, corruption.
You'll notice many influential and wealthy lawmakers in state governments own dealerships. Unsurprisingly they're near uniformly anti-taxes and 'big government' so the "but dealership pay taxes" argument rarely holds sway as they're constantly fighting against it.
https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-deale...
I ended up getting a Ford Escape Hybrid (not plug-in) instead, which I really like (then again, I guess it's a different kind of product, not being a plug-in hybrid)
Dealers are putting high asking prices into these websites to anchor the negotiations at an unreasonable number. Gullible customers come in and feel like the dealership is doing them a favor by selling for "only" 20% over MSRP.
I really doubt that RAV4 SUVs are selling for 50% over MSRP in high numbers. Maybe one or two sales to people for whom money is no object who also, for some reason, won't simply buy a more luxurious vehicle for the same price. Don't let dealers fool you into thinking this is the new market rate, though.
One year ago today, it the trade in value is 12% more than I purchased it. Today, it is 36% more. This is wild.
Here's a real email exchange I had about a Prius Prime LE:
Dealer: We have one in stock!
Me: What's the price on it?
Dealer: The MSRP is 30119 plus 20k, tags, and taxes.
Me: Plus 20k?
Dealer: Yes that is the mark up on our Prius Prime. It can be negotiable, but have to be in person.
**
That looks to me like a number pulled out of their ass as an ad-hoc out-of-state spam filter. It worked. But I see no evidence that it has shit to do with the actual price that a human being would pay to buy a new car.
HN is a big place-- anybody pay 15-20K over MSRP for a Prius Prime in the past 6 months? I strongly suspect dealers are having fun touting their spam filter numbers as if that's some kind of real car price...
Basically a great gateway drug to fully electric, which is what I want when I can get an F150 which is not taking orders atm.
https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018
and end up with ~$42K in pocket.
(It is particularly inexpensive because they significantly improved the range in 2019. However, the 2018 would easily do your commute.)
We ended up buying one in lieu of trading in an ICE pickup truck for a backordered electric F150.
To me, the crazy thing is that we could apparently sell you the used i3 we bought earlier this year for a 36% profit, and you could end up with a 60% discount on the i3 (vs. pre-Ukraine prices) by switching to it from the RAV4!
That means it takes an hour to drive there and back?? Twice a day?!
For the price of Toyota RAV4 one could get either a 7-seater Škoda Kodiaq[1], or a fully electric Škoda Enyaq[2], both of which are more practical and more premium inside.
Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, VW, et al seem to have an extensive lineup of electrified vehicles. Yet, they still seem very hard to come by in this market.
In Europe, there is an all-electric Honda hatchback:
https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e
> Mazda is even worse.
And an all-electric Mazda SUV:
https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30
But both of these models are hardly competitive.
https://electrek.co/2021/09/20/skoda-abandoning-phevs-per-ce...
In many parts of Europe, Škoda is considered "the European Toyota". Because it's made by Volkswagen Group and uses the engines previously tested by its more premium brands – such as Porsche, Audi, and Volkswagen.
I probably should plug its competitors: Hyundai Tucson PHEV and Ford Escape PHEV. They're cheaper and roughly the same size. They don't have the insane acceleration of the RAV4 prime, but they accomplish the goal of going from A-to-B with 40ish miles of all electric range + gasoline backup.
If you're willing to sacrifice the acceleration, the Hyundai Tucson PHEV should be competitive. Ford Escape PHEV is FWD only and also slower, but its the cheapest of all 3 options.
It can be combated somewhat with fuel stabilizers, but it's absolutely a concern.
Just "don't charge" your PHEV once or twice, and you'll cycle through the gasoline. Pretend its an ICE vehicle about once every 3 to 6 months and you should be fine.
You probably have a road trip / beach trip where you were planning to use its gasoline tank anyway in that timeframe. You only need to travel ~300 miles to cycle through most of your gas tank.
Having said that, I mainly drive on city streets and interstates now days, but I still understand why someone would want a car with a little pep.
Funny how EVs have changed the game on performance. I don't think anyone sells an EV with a 0-60 over 8s, and one can pretty easily get a model 3 with ~ 3s 0-60. That was supercar territory not so long ago.
Do they have option of not remotely controlled car? )
I don't think that's a fair number. It seems cost/mile or carbon/mile would make more since, since that number assumes electricity is free.
Wow, that's great! I didn't realize ICE tech has improved so much. That's better than a new little Ford Fiesta, weighing nearly half as much.
It has 42 miles of electric range. Prius Prime only has 25. So you can have an SUV, have electric, and have a gas engine for long trips.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Crazy to think what PHEVs goes for now.
1) Prices in the US don’t include tax.
2) Ireland is also an expensive place to purchase a car because of VRT. RAV4 PHEV is €47k in Germany for example.
3) Lastly, could be some spec differences between the cars that account for a difference, as in my experience, cars in Ireland aren’t always the same specs/trim as other areas (but I could be wrong about Toyota, I don’t know).
The best I've been able to find is 1.5k over msrp with some other restrictions.
What happened after that? The market didn't even bother asking anything about them and with electric bills ramping up, the opportunity of somewhat have a seizable market for electric cars was lost.
Whoever think we'll phase out regular cars by 2035 is either lying, being naive or getting something out of it.
I am also noticing the same pattern in luxury real estate. I see listings routinely sell below the asking price or not selling at all. There is a cash crunch coming and the rich are urgently putting up their items for sale.
yeah, actually...