Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.
Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possible to design a system for slotting it in that doesn’t require me to physically lift its weight.
I’d also be happy to drive into somewhere local that rents me that long range battery and slots it in with machinery designed for the purpose.
Low tech FTW.
Smartrail is still a better soln but we have to be realistic here.
I'm pretty sure Tesla's Rivians get locked into park when the charger is connected.
That’s what I was wondering too. Like you, I’m pretty sure the major EVs don’t let you drive while charge, but I haven’t actually tried it.
I can't see why no one is exploring this gap in the market. It might only appeal to nerds at first but that is true with most technologies in their infancy.
We need what is effectively a giant version of a double AA battery. Yes we also need battery management systems and heating/cooling to go with these things but these are solved problems, just not standardised yet.
Please someone take note and do this!
That would however subject the smaller battery to more charge/discharge cycles for obtaining the same mileage. Wouldn't that shorten its life?
But some companies are also investigating battery swap stations for cars. So, you might not be able to swap a short-range battery with a long-range battery yourself, but I imagine that would be possible with those battery swap stations. See [2]. Battery swap stations means that you have full range again for the same time it takes to fill a car with gas. But obviously, you need to have enough of those stations to make it usable. And if every car brand is gonna create its own mechanism for battery swapping, then that would probably only be interesting in city areas where it's worthwhile for the manufacturer to run those stations.
[1] https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/18/battery-swapping-statio... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61310513
Edit: typo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9aEWxexrMI
Just started raising VC this year lol
That's utopian. These things weigh a ton, you'd need a forklift.
That's basically what an electric cargo bike is, functionally.
>I’d also be happy to drive into somewhere local that rents me that long range battery and slots it in with machinery designed for the purpose.
Rent the whole car...
>my car’s weight is low and efficiency high.
...and you don't have the weight the rest of the time.
Lots of companies (even Tesla) have attempted the replaceable battery concept but none have been able to make it work efficiently.
I understand that the structure of the car's body may be suboptimal and require extra reinforcement but if we're really serious about EV adoption and reducing battery cost then perhaps a trade-off worth making?
So assume your vehicle has 3 packs. You normally run it with just one pack because that's all you need to commute and run errands during the week. When you go visit the relatives in Florida, you install the other two packs to get the additional range. The car needs additional structural elements to meet safety standards when the extra packs aren't installed and they add 5% additional weight. That's weight you're carrying around every day, and that has a range cost.
Could it be worth it to swap out the extra structure elements when you install the extra packs, so at least you aren't taking the range penalty while driving long distance? Yes, but the manufacturer isn't going to want the liability of a customer removing what is a passive safety device, and then forgetting to reinstall it when they go back to city travel using only one pack.
NHTSA will also have input to this. From what I can tell - the applicable FMVSS is this one that deals with EV side impact protection, electrolyte spills, and electric shock.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/document/final-rule-occupant-protectio...
They rolled out this service to a couple of spots in California, which was probably sufficient for the the credit regime, but ended up not expanding the program further and terminating it after a few quarters. The official explanation was that it was not widely used.
https://youtu.be/H5V0vL3nnHY?t=57
There may have been other business reasons. I have no idea what was discussed on the executive level but wouldn't be surprised if they considered some tradeoffs of complexity, costs and customer attractivenes to not be worth it. Honestly, it's very rare that you actually need or strongly prefer to have this kind of service rather than just recharging at 150kW for 15 minutes. So if it adds considerable cost or complexity, I could understand the decision to drop it.
A short time later, they started welding an extra metal shield onto the bottom of the Model S, to act as an extra layer of protection against collisions with highway debris that caused some high-profile battery fires. I had the impression that this precluded battery swap, so at that point the business decision must have been made to not expand the program further.
If the regulatory incentives was key in the decision to do this and then later drop it, that's a fundamental property of incentives to do something that might not be a good idea in isolation.
A short summary of the extra government subsidy Tesla got out of the non-existing battery swaps is here: https://seekingalpha.com/article/2724835-after-earning-tens-...
Tesla did a decent market test on batteries, the test failed and they moved on.
NIO is:
https://insideevs.com/news/591837/nio-battery-swapping-stati...
https://insideevs.com/news/392660/nio-battery-swap-loved-by-...
https://insideevs.com/news/583809/nio-baas-battery-swapping-...
https://insideevs.com/news/596640/nio-500kw-ultra-rapid-char...
> Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery
10 kWh wouldn't get you very far in a car. In a scooter or quadracycle 10 kWh can be useful.
> 10 kWh wouldn't get you very far in a car.
Tell that to Chevy Volt owners. It's amazing how much all electric driving can be achieved with just a little bit of careful driving. I barely use my range extender now, it's just for the odd long trip.
So why not just start selling battery cargo trailers which can provide your main car with extended range when needed?
It's also much easier to swap and rent out physically, financially and emotionally than your main car.
Trailer hookups can be legitimately difficult. Even in the simplest case, they can be time-consuming.
Humans are notoriously bad at backing up with a trailer attached.
Heavy trailers (batteries) are extra dangerous -- tail-wagging can be scary!
Cars with trailers don't fit in parking spaces.
...
A replaceable battery has to be in the underpan of a car. Or split across several battery modules, but keeping the center of gravity low, and between the axles.
I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.
Also due to their capacity most EVs are charged at about 0.1C whereas phones (especially with rapid chargers) are charged anywhere between 1C and 3C.
Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost.
My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday.
When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistically what most people will have to spend on, you’re looking at the 160 mile range leaf. With an 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user. I couldn’t even drive to see my mother in it without charging twice on the way.
I will not own an EV as the incidental risk trade off is too high and the up front cost of a new EV is too high.
Maybe if that is your only car. As a commuter or grocery car it would be fine.
The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.
Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.
Maybe so, but the average American family has about 2 cars. Lots of sources for that, but here’s one from top of search results:
https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-americ...
Show me where I said or even implied that? Why must you argue and pick battles with everyone? Maybe time for a break?
An EV to replace the Corolla would be ideal. Perfect spot for this scenario.
That's usually the cause of scrapping a vehicle in places where structural rust didn't get it first.
What would it cost to replace the engine or gearbox of your car?
On my vehicle an engine costs about £1275 to put a refurb in it. Gearbox about £550.
There is no rust anywhere on my 8 year old vehicle.
People run like this out of financial necessity. They don’t have enough income to run an EV.
So someone buying a used EV will presumably buy something with enough range for them to get around, and then over time if they notice the range starting to decline to the point that it might be an issue, they'll have some time to save up & trade in their car for a better one. Their current car won't be worthless on the used market and someone who doesn't have as large of range requirements (e.g. a 2nd car for commuting) will still buy it.
There are other issues that can prevent an EV from charging at all, but they have usually cheaper fixes than a whole battery pack replacement like you're talking about.
From quick check in google: If you are extremely lucky, you’ll get your transmission replacement completed for $2,500 all in. If yours is one of the more expensive types, it could easily range to $6,000 or even more.
My diesel has also done just over 340,000km and it’s pretty shot. Hard to start on cold mornings and I’ve had to sort out some leaky injectors and seized joints on the driveshaft. There’s another couple of hundred thousand kilometres left at best.
The EV is coming up to 100,000km and it stills drives just as spritely as the day I got it. The battery is showing 100% state of health and I’m convinced it’ll happily do a million kilometres or more.
Sounds perfect for the average American as a daily commuter / errands car. Yes, no road trips without inconvenience, but that still doesn’t make it useless, it makes it a great secondary car instead.
i know i am not an average user but that's like a month of driving for me.
That said, 20% degradation after 10 years isn't a huge deal for me. I'm sure in that time, battery replace/refurbishment will be much cheaper. There is a company in Oregan that will replace a 40kwh Leaf pack for $7000 .
Walking!? So 1.5-2hrs each way to get to work? On really hot or cold days, that’s going to be torturous. Had you suggested riding a bike or maybe a scooter/moped I’d have not said anything, but suggesting folks walk that distance felt a bit off the mark.
How long is the rest of the car expected to survive?
I rarely do long range driving, and my commute was short for years (a couple miles each way) for about a decade before we switched to work from home a couple years before the pandemic, and I'm not interested in travel so my usage is not going to up much when I retire in a few years. I anticipate a need for at most 100k over the rest of my life, which almost certainly will be less than 25 years.
Would a current EV be likely be able to handle that with just reasonable maintenance?
I'm currently driving a 2006 Honda CR-V that I bought new and could probably reasonably keep driving another 10-15 years. That's what I want out of an EV.
Corporations do not care about the environment, but they do know a good story when they see it. If they can get you to buy the same car multiple times, this is great business for them. If they can lobby governments to encourage the scrapping of old but serviceable cars, eg by fining non-EVs for their emissions, that means you will be forced to buy sooner.
It's all business. Neither corporations nor the governments that service corporations care about either the people or the environment. I wish people would recognise this fact, but corporate-government schooling/science/culture has everyone believing that government is here to help!
You can push batteries harder, but they’ll generate more heat and degrade faster (lower cycle life). This ends up counterintuitively in a higher long term cost of ownership.
Good news is C rates are getting better over time.
I think when it comes to the car this idea could be viable but I think the risk is potential change with the weight distribution. You could probably have some weights that are replaced with batteries when you upgrade to keep the weight constant but then you are reducing your range.
I wonder if a good solution is a smaller fixed battery for lower cost then "range extenders" like this for the bike you can swap in for longer journeys or a topup on a busy day type thing.
Compare the Model 3 to a Camry (300k units), Civic, (260k units), Corolla (250k units), or Accord (200k units), and you'll see the lightest model 3 available weighs more than the heaviest trims of all four, and the 3 is on the lighter side of 250+ mile EVs by a pretty decent margin.
Is the BMW causing just as much road damage as a Model 3? yes.
Does the weight of the average sedan go up substantially as we convert to EV? Absolutely