Polio Detected in US
arstechnica.com
arstechnica.com
Even more troubling is that they were paralyzed which means they were one of the less than 1% of polio cases that turn into a severe event like being paralyzed. The vast majority of cases are asymptomatic or just give you diarrhea.
How many people could be out in the community and spreading it without anyone knowing?
I wonder whether anyone has checked Rockland county wastewater? This kind of testing recently detected it in London: https://www.science.org/content/article/poliovirus-in-london...
I got vaccinated because "if you get vaccinated, you won't get covid"... and then the narrative changed. 5G (well, every technology from 2g onwards) also enables a lot more precise tracking of users (their location).
The vaccine was never going to be great against variants (though some people did claim it would be just as good with little evidence) and the more removed the variants get (ie, variant of a variant) the less chance those older vaccines have of resisting them.
So it's not exactly that the "narrative changed" so much as that the virus changed and the narrative didn't keep up fast enough.
For what it's worth, we knew really early that the vaccine reduced severe illness primarily. People continued to be, and still are, inaccurate.
> “So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,” Fauci said.
So, very few get it at all, and the ones who get it, can't spread it, even without masks. This (well, similar, from our local agencies) was the info I got when i went to get vaccinated.
You can still get it.
You are agreeing with me.
If you want people to trust you, you have to be honest. If you make obvious lies then you get caught and trust is destroyed. The CDC repeatedly lied and misled the American public and now is having trust issues leading to people not getting vaccinated like they should.
If you want to be trusted, don't lie.
The trials didn't even measure "severe illness", so no, we definitely didn't know that by any definition of early. Actually that claim only came to the fore as effectiveness against infection collapsed and a new justification was required.
The fact that the virus would change was obvious from the start. Coronaviruses always do mutate fast, it's why nobody bothered making vaccines for then before. The narrative changed not because the emergence of yet another variant was unexpected but because the narrative was always and everywhere whatever would convince people to take shots, not what was true.
Literally no one reputable ever said this given that original studies showed 95% effectiveness at preventing wild-type Covid…
> “So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,” Fauci said.
So, almost noone vaccinated will get it, and those who do, won't spread it.
So, people literally died, because they though they coudln't get it, and went out, and other people who though they couldn't spread it, spread it around.
[…]
> So, almost noone vaccinated will get it
That’s a pretty clear case of moving the goalposts if I ever saw it.
"According to the New York State Health Department, a person was found to be infected by a vaccine-derived poliovirus type 2 (VDPV2), aka revertant polio Sabin type 2 virus."
"Vaccine-associated paralytic polio" (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-p...) is "a rare adverse event" following immunization with the Oral Polio Vaccine. "The United States exclusively has used IPV since 2000."
I doesn't seem likely that a "young adult" who hasn't travelled outside the US would be exposed to the OPV. Possibly, from some of the other cases mentioned in the CDC article, someone the young adult interacted with had been exposed to it, though.
The original article doesn't mention if the young adult was immunocompromised, which seems like a requirement for a secondary OPV infection.
The fact the patient was unvaccinated was effectively their "immunocompromise" that allowed the virus to spread to them.
* if you live on a spherical planet with spherical people
This is made harder by another similar but subtly different problem - circulating vaccine-derived polioviruses. They come from the oral vaccine too, but instead of affecting vaccinated people they spread amongst the unvaccinated population and evolve to regain the virulence and high rate of paralyzation of wild polio. It's one of those viruses that was found in New York. This poses a problem for eradicating polio and stopping vaccination, because once you're no longer vaccinating people they can catch and spread the virus from the oral vaccine and it can evolve into something dangerous. The current VDPV problem traces back to an attempt to finally finish eradicating the type 2 poliovirus, which no longer exists in its wild form, by removing it from the oral vaccine and stamping out any subsequent VDPV spread. This failed badly.
If you eliminate the unvaccinated population, vaccine-derived infections are a non-issue. Which is how we addressed the problem prior to 1979 - largely due to the fact that everyone saw first had what the virus did and there was no vaccine hesitancy.
But we haven't used weakened virus vaccines for polio in the last 20 years, so it's kinda moot.
> A potential, adverse effect of the OPV is its known ability to recombine to a form that causes neurological infection and paralysis.[27] This genetic reversal of the pathogen to a virulent form takes a considerable time (at least 12 months) and does not affect the person who was originally vaccinated. The vaccine-derived attenuated virus is normally excreted from vaccinated people for a limited period. Thus, in areas with poor sanitation and low vaccination coverage, the spontaneous reversal of the vaccine-derived virus to a virulent form and its spreading in the environment can lead to unvaccinated people becoming infected.
Which boils down to no, you cannot get polio from the polio vaccine but potentially some others could get polio from you for a short period a year later if they’re not vaccinated.
Vincent Racaniello covers this and other details, recommended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5KGHzHTsI
Vincent has been a very bad source of information for the COVID pandemic. He has famously been against vaccine boosters, and even declared he didn't think he needed one. Even now as the need for second boosters is clear (and the need for first boosters completely justified and verified) he still says they aren't necessary. This is on top of him downplaying every variant like Omicron and saying they wouldn't be a problem (and then they went on to be huge problems). He should not be platformed IMHO.
Kind of stinks when it's used against you, doesn't it?
The solution to bad ideas is more ideas, not "deplatforming" or whatever mealy-mouthed word is currently being used to make censorship marketable these days.
My question is simple: is there any speech that should not be tolerated here? Yes, or no?
There’s speech that doesn’t fit the community’s guidelines in terms of the manner it is expressed, but I don’t believe there are any ideas that should not be tolerated here.
Do you still stand by your statement? Should that idea be tolerated on this forum?
I’ll disagree, of course, but in the exceedingly unlikely event that you present a strong argument, it’s still an opportunity to hone my own counter-argument.
I don't even think this has anything to do with free speech, as in freedom to express your thoughts. The key with free speech is that everyone is entitled to that. Verbal attacks are often an attempt to stop others from expressing their thoughts, so I think they are fundamentally an action against free speech.
That being said, as a German, I don't agree with the German blanket bans of certain expressions. Context and intentions always matter, I think.
Most, if not all, meaningful speech risks offending someone.
Framing uncomfortable beliefs as attacks grants a form of "victim power" by which anyone can claim to be a victim of your "attack" as a means of shutting down speech.
This isn't a hypothetical, I see the technique used frequently.
The answer is yes, absolutely.
And I'd happily engage you to try to convince and educate you, in a respectful way, why I believe that's incorrect.
Because that's how we raise ourselves up.
Censoring, reviling, shutting down and abandoning people who hold these sorts of beliefs only serves to reinforce them and drive them into echo chambers of radicalization.
So yes, by all means. Express any thoughts, ideas, opinions or dreams you have.
By actively participating in the marketplace of ideas, we can let the best ones rise, and the worst ones defeat themselves.
Through discussion and debate, not force or cooersion, of which censorship is an insidious form.
"We need to kill all the ** to keep our race pure"
Is that speech that should be tolerated? Karl Popper would say no, and I agree with his reasoning.
I really have a hard time understanding what the drama is about.
Basically the same rules can be applied, for example a counter attack in defense is a lighter offense than an unprovoked attack.
I think that this does not particularly limit someone's ability to express their opinions, ideas and beliefs.
But here it gets interesting: hate speech wrapped up as "opinions, ideas, and beliefs". At the risk of downvotes (what ev er), I posit that Fox News engages in high level hate speech (not every minute but enough for it to count).
Case in point: Tucker Carlson's "The Great Replacement" agenda. It's thinly veiled white nationalism -- basically arguing that white people are under attack from non-whites. Yes, it gets discussed by him as "what if" and "how come" but it has an agenda that is prepared to be enforced by violence by those who are spooked by it.
I don't have an answer for how to deal with this, but it is in the end hate speech and is not healthy for society as a whole.
https://publikationen.uni-tuebingen.de/xmlui/handle/10900/45...
(sadly it's only available in German)
Eradicating polio is harder than it seems
> The Orthodox Jewish community, the largest in the country, have some of the lowest vaccination rates in the state; Monsey's is the lowest in the state, at 17.8%, as of June 15, 2021
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockland_County,_New_York#Heal...
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...
It absolutely is. It's low risk because everyone is vaccinated.
I don't have the smallpox vaccine though. I know my mom has a big scar on the inside of her arm from that one, so I am pretty sure they've phased that one out.
They get 3 doses before they turn 15 months old, in fact.
Where are you getting this information from?
Edit: I believe I did, too, but that would have been back in the 1970s.
> ”Being a religious Jew, you also get used to having a minority viewpoint,” said Alexander Rapaport, the CEO of the Masbia Soup Kitchen Network in Brooklyn, and a public face of the Hasidic community. “So if something is not mainstream, it doesn’t take you away from believing it.”
[0] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/11/9/18068036/me...
I understand the historical reasons of course but it is not helpful. All must be uplifted from darkness.
My good friend is a pediatrician in the area and frequently gets calls from mom's who ask if he does "evaluations for potential vaccine injury" - which is code for "I need a note from a doctor to have my child exempt from vaccination".
Unfortunately, their poor vaccination culture caused Measles to spread to neighboring New York City, and then across the country.
Not that this excuses anything; much has been written about the challenges within and around these communities and the lives of people within them. But the issue is less that the modern public health apparatus has collapsed and more that there are large groups of people in these areas who have extreme religious views and generally seek isolation from the secular world - an isolation that extends up to and includes public education and public health.
I.e., the libertarian in me wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons.
On the other hand, those communities aren't 100% insular from surrounding society. Maybe their lower vaccination rates increase the chances of spreading the virus to outsiders who can't be vaccinated, consume extra healthcare resources, and/or increase the odds of generating a new variant that current vaccines can't stop.
Has the libertarian in you seen what happens when an area bans guns but the surrounding areas don't?
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-30646...
I never implied all guns were banned in Chicago. "some of the strictest"
Illinois overall has a "firearm injury death rate" of 14.1 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/illinois/il.htm).
Indiana overall has a firearm injury death rate of 17.3 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/indiana/in.htm).
Mississippi (28.6), Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama and Alaska all have rates above 23 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/...).
"Phillips County, Arkansas, with only 22,000 residents, had the nation’s highest homicide rate. Meanwhile, Cook County, Illinois (Chicago), which often captures the media’s attention around violence, had the 79th highest gun homicide rate." (https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/202...)
This shouldn't be a controversial comment. How could it even be argued otherwise?
At least that's my understanding of Judaism and how it was taught to me.
For people unfamiliar with the different Jewish movements: Rockland county is overwhelmingly Orthodox, specifically Hasidic. The Hasidim are a modern conservative interpretation of Judaism: it didn't coalesce until the 18th century.
If I was going to be disparaging, I'd say that their closest Christian analogue is the nakedly revisionist evangelical Christianity of the the American 1970s and forwards.
I think the current strain, as far as Biblical interpretation is concerned, goes back to Darby's crappy-but-popular 1909 Bible, incorporating extensive same-page notes from Darby:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible
The 70s are just when the GOP's plan to sell itself to evangelicals, on social issues, as a deliberate ploy to capture them as a constituency to support the rest of the GOP agenda, really started to take off.
After opening your link and reading more about it a lot of more things make sense and "clicked" into place.
That would be disparaging to the evangelical community. Even if you find modern evangelicals to hold distasteful beliefs, and I personally do, I don't think that's an apt comparison.
A much closer analog would be the radical Mormon cults of southern Utah.
A radical version of a controversial branch of the religion.
The radical Mormon sects, to my understanding (which is limited to Under the Banner of Heaven[1]) have somewhat strong textual justifications for their practices: it's a matter of historical fact that the early Mormons were polygamists, were vitriolic racists, &c.
This is in contrast to both reactionary evangelicals (who do not make up all evangelicals) and Hasidic Jews (who are do not make up the entire Orthodox community), where both groups have largely substituted contemporary doctrine (as a conservative religious expression) for historical (and even canonical) interpretations. Compare evangelical interpretations of capitalism (and the "doctrine of wealth") to descriptions of wealth and charity thoughout both the Old and New Testaments. Similarly, Hasidic interpretation to pillars of Jewish doctrine (Pikuach Nefesh, Tikkun Olam).
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven
Is it accurate to single out Rockland County?
Maybe my reasoning is too simplistic here, but I'd think NYC was only vulnerable if they too had a poor vaccination culture.
Good coverage means NYC won't have a Polio epidemic, but not that nobody in NYC will get Polio if it has taken hold in adjacent areas.
Not the case. Vaccines aren't 100% effective. It's possible for an unvaccinated person to infect a vaccinated person. Ideally, everyone is vaccinated, and the risk becomes extremely small.
We need better education.
Public is becoming less and less informed.
It's heartbreaking seeing young people afflicted with polio. People who should be running around, having fun, dating, will never experience that. And I'm sure it will continue to impact them as they age.
Makes me sad to thinking about it.
https://rollcall.com/2018/07/10/mcconnell-gets-personal-disc...
My grandmother tells the story of the big US polio outbreak when she was a child. Her parents were scared to death, so put her on a train in Indianapolis out to Iowa to live on her grandparent’s farm . She talked about multiple towns that the train stopped in and let people disembark, but refused to allow boarding, and looking out the windows at the signs and evidence of widespread fear.
It’s not something you would forget, and she is definitely still alive ;)
WAS IN AN IRON LUNG FOR A YEAR. HAD TO LIVE APART FROM HIS FAMILY FOR A LONG TIME. As immigrants working their way up from the sweatshops, and eventually running their own quasi-sweatshop, they could not leave to be with him through years of recuperation.
Recovered. Never ever wanted to talk about what he had been through. My dad didn’t even know until he was an older teen.
Post-polio syndrome arrived. No medications available to help, because there was no interest from companies in putting money into developing the medications, because no one was ever going to get polio again, right?
Contributing cause of death.
(I'm still in my mid 20s, and my adult neighbor growing up was paralyzed from the waist down from childhood polio. He was born the year before the Salk vaccine.)
They're both aghast that people would be refusing proven science. My wife and I share that, although hey, Darwin awards, take yourself out from the pool if you really want to do it. It's just too bad that their behavior impacts us too.
The US vaccinates with the non-live version. This non-live version cannot mutate, but it is non-sterilizing- the vaccinated can still become infected in their gut- the vaccine prevents it from getting into their bloodstream and become poliomyelitis. We now see this outcome in some articles about Polio showing up in sewage samples in the developed world where this vaccine is given.
So polio is already spreading and the un-vaccinated population in question here is not necessarily increasing the spread of Polio. The tragedy though is that someone is now suffering paralysis from poliomyelitis which probably would not have happened if the person were vaccinated.
There is currently an epidemic of vaccine derived polio (of which this is a case). We do not have a solution for this.
I could write several pages of how Polio eradication is failed because of subtype 2, but maybe you could just read for yourself.
Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication#2022 and see how man countries are being infected with cVDPV which is caused by vaccination!
Then scroll up and see how it's page after page after page of vaccine derived Polio.
There's currently a huge problems: Subtype 2 doesn't exist in the wild, so normally you would not vaccinate for it. But if you don't vaccinate for it than vaccine derived subtype 2 takes hold - but if you do vaccinate for it, then you create cases of vaccine derived polio!
So how do you solve that?
Yes, make a better vaccine, not a big problem, why didn't anyone else think of that?
For your information they are trying, and have been working on it for years, it's called nOPV2.
I am a layman in this field so I could be wrong.
It failed.
See my post for why it failed (in short: cVDPV2), but this xkcd is no longer correct. And ironically the person we are supposed to be laughing at in the strip, actually turned out to be correct - we need a whole new strategy (which is called nOPV2 if you want to lookup info).
The long term affect is not fun. And not to mention post polio syndrome.
I hope we'll look back at this period 100 years from now and just shake our heads, and hope that it's not an ongoing concern then.
I can understand being frustrated because herd immunity was touted as a possible benefit of mass covid vaccination, but that has nothing to do with whether it exists in general.
The SARS2 mRNA vaccines don’t even protect against infection, especially for Omicron variants.
You may want to reconsider your opinion.
The point I’m trying to make is that there’s a wide range of vaccine efficacy. Current vaccines against BA4/5, very poor.
Now, my question is, since the current mRNA vaccine is causing our body to create old spike protein, and BA4/5 almost completely evades the resulting antibodies, what’s the mechanism that reduces severe disease from BA4/5?
Your body only briefly produced spike protein after vaccination. The lasting immunity isn't caused by ongoing spike protein production.
It’s not like T cell immunity has whole SARS2 virus to model against, like it does with other vaccines employing whole, inactivated virus.
mRNA breaks down within a few days, by which point spike protein production by your cells has stopped, and the spike proteins themselves break down within a few weeks.
Inactivated virus would be broken down and excreted within a similar timeframe or faster; it's the immune system memory of the proteins that it encountered that persists.
The protection goes down over time, and it is less for many of the variants, but it is way greater than 0.
But, it is still claimed that they greatly reduce severe infection.