Ask HN: Remote work credit? I built an app that the company thinks my boss built

Is the boss a programmer? If yes, then yeah you should say something. If not, then this is all just normal - this is what bosses do - get credit for their division and get more funding for it. If he is not a programmer, then of course the board knows he didn't build it and had it built. Even if the sketches were shitty - he was in charge of getting the right people to build it.

A boss-type one time: "When I was with X, I built four datacenters"

Me, with a career that overlaps a time when one or two people building a datacenter with a little help from contractors for e.g. the electrical work and hvac, wasn't unheard of, for about three seconds, in my head: "Damn, that's pretty impressive"

Me, by the end of the three seconds: "Oh, he means he told other people to build four datacenters and that was very likely the extent of his involvement."

I used to get so angry about all this credit-taking, but after 20 years, it kind of just washes over me now. Look at every company's "About Us" page and you'll see beautiful headshots of top executives with captions claiming to have "Built product X" or "Developed application Y" when they probably never wrote a line of code in their lives. It's so pervasive in every company that, as an IC, you just have to accept it or you're going to give yourself increasing anxiety until you explode.

Well in theory it's quite an adventure to get support and secure funding and generally make something possible, so the credit is not completely misplaced. And like other commenters said, nobody thinks they did that with their own hands. At least nobody in their right minds.

The problem is that assumed knowledge is so implicit. If you're not familiar with the norm, it's easy to get confused about what someone actually did. Add to that the inherent desire of our ego to over-inflate our own importance, and misunderstandings don't get corrected.

Personally, I prefer to call out leadership explicitly: "lead teams who built out four data centers."

> very likely the extent of his involvement

I'm going to assume that you are not in a management position from this statement? It's virtually impossible, unless you have extremely high-functioning workers, to do this.

People need oversight so they don't go off the rails, management so others don't step in to distract them, leadership so they can be guided in the right direction, etc.

Even with awesome direct reports, I can't think of a time when I just handed someone an extremely complex project and left them alone and was presented with perfect success a few months later.

Management is a skill; don't disregard its importance.

Someone's gotta approve my timesheet. That's an important skill.

Imagine actually being so self-absorbed as to think that all of the folks who actually possess the technical skill to build the thing you’re daydreaming about couldn’t possibly do their jobs without your ‘leadership’… as if the only hand that doesn’t need held is yours… the guy who can’t actually build anything.

Ego is a hell of a drug

I know people who have a new house and say "When we built this house, blah, blah blah...", when I know they don't even know what a hammer looks like.

Heh, at least it's their own money in those cases.

Getting other people to do something — at all, let alone correctly — is actually a huge task. You should not dismiss the efforts of a manager who orchestrated four datacenters, that's very impressive.

and why should we continue to accept and reward this behaviour?

What behavior? If the boss isn’t a programmer, then it sounds like the boss is doing a good job here. He went and hired a programmer to build an app they needed. What am I missing?

> I'm moving back to NJ to be 'hybrid' beginning of August...Do I mention to the head of the project the first time I meet him that I built the entire app or just let my boss have his glory and mention I'm on the team that helped build it?

"Hi. I'm Name. I'm on BossName's team. I work on AppN."

Like a normal person.

Please be better tactically than getting your direct manager to hate you. Managing your manager is one of the most overlooked skills. Engineers almost always lack it.

If you want credit, maneuver yourself to get it once you're on-site. You went to work for a hybrid company, but are fully remote. Not only that but you’re in Bali while they’re in New Jersey for a significant time zone difference. That's on you. Ask to be included in demos and meetings -- make up a reason if you need to. You want to be there to answer technical questions or get feedback directly for example. In those meetings, actually participate when appropriate and slowly gain visibility.

It's very obvious to many of us who've been doing this for a while which folks are tactically aware of the politics and norms of a workplace and those clueless. Don't be that person.

+1 take @ctvo's advice. Right now you have incomplete picture of the companies environment may be head and your boss are best buddies or may be company trusts your boss to get the work done and doesn't wants to get involved in nittty-gritty of how he gets it done so by bringing this up would just end up in harming your position in the company.

When you get back to NJ you can ask your boss to rectify the oversight and give you the credit you deserve. If he's a prick about it there is always the option of changing jobs and letting your boss take the blame for not being able to support the app that "he built." Life is too short for such drama and it makes for an interesting story at your next job interview as well as the exit interview (kinda like the time I answered "Because my boss was asking me to commit a felony" in reply to why I was looking for a different job...).

I'd also say that if you're an employee of the company, you should be able to communicate with boss and CC... everyone. With updates. "Here's the latest update. Please let me know if I need to make any changes - To: Boss, CC: everyone"

Do this at most companies and you'll get sidelined fast. The management caste protects their own. Uppity ICs don't get "the attention they deserve" they get sidelined.

this was real weird behaviour to encounter as an IC. pre pandemic I ran into a director from another org that I knew from playing MMOs with, had a half hour chat during lunch with some picking of brains for a weird endgame raid strategy and afterward my manager pulled me aside and was like "whats happening is everything ok?? i saw you having a long meeting with a director in another org??"

Yep. The first organizations were military. You don't jump chain of command unless the integrity of the organization is at risk. Doing it for personal gain—even if justified? Instant persona non grata.

> Please let me know if I need to make any changes - To: Boss, CC: everyone

DON'T DO IT. You are cornering your boss, implicitly showing your conflict/concern. It'd backfire on you

whilst I completely agree the correct resolution is to speak to the boss about credit and move on if you're not in agreement, it sounds like the sort of story to be wary about mentioning in future interviews ("I left that company because someone else took all the credit for work I did" raises awkward questions about communication and expectations which "because I won't commit felonies..." doesn't).

On the plus side, if a project's gone really well and is very important for the personal prestige of your line manager and the line manager is a little bit nervous about being unable to maintain and expand the thing he's getting credit for .... that sounds like a good time to ask for a pay rise or other improvements to your contract. That might be far more useful than the boss publicly conceding how little of the work was his own, and he can even spin the outcome as how effectively he saved the company money by hiring such a good quality remote subcontractor at initially below market rates!

> it sounds like the sort of story to be wary about mentioning in future interviews

Nobody expects honest answers when it comes to this sort of questions. If you reply honestly, you are condemning yourself to a life of 9-5 jobs. The correct answer to this sort of questions is a generic response "I am looking to explore new opportunities", or something similar.

As any experienced interviewer will know, “I’m looking to explore new opportunities” is code for “I got fired” or “I’m not doing well”. You’re giving the interviewer full control over what they want to guess your issues are, so it’s usually a better idea to be a bit more upfront (in particular if you can explain what you learned in the process)

Have you ever worked with people in HR at a large (more than 1K headcount) firm? Your mindset is that of an engineer's and you are overthinking things. An HR person doesn't give two fucks about why you are leaving your previous company in a high demand field like software engineering as long as there are no obvious red flags.

Yes, I hired people and managed orgs at companies from 50 to 100k employees. I have a bit of experience doing this.

> mentioned the head of the project doesn't know I exist

Was this said in a way that may have been trying to get you to feel like you're missing out and encourage you to come back to office? Not saying that's appropriate, but your other comment makes me think this org doesn't have a strong remote culture, and so likely one to stack the optics against remote work.

I'm wondering if the comment was made more in the spirit of "[as the remote member of this project] the CEO doesn't even know who you are, and thinks I made the whole thing [which is clearly a shit deal, and so by implication you should really come work in the office]" (bracket context as unsaid, but implied)

Anyhow, this sucks, and I feel for your sense of being mistreated. Attribution is important, and a failure to offer it (nevermind their views on remote work) is a bit of a smell

I think the extent of your contribution will become clear if you stick around.

Something else to consider - maybe the board is ecstatic because it's not actually solving the right problem but looks very streamlined? You say the boss was only giving you one sentence saying what to build.

I don't know how well requirements were communicated in those sentences, but if they told you exactly what you needed to know, I'd say your boss has done a very good job, along with you.

EDIT: I want to say that it sounds like you and your boss are a great team. Don't screw that up over your apprehensions right now. See how it goes.

I would suggest letting go of your ego here and focusing on what you want out of the situation, and which action will help you get that. If all you want is "credit", let it go entirely. Ultimately the company is paying to own your work, so no one will really care if you get "credit" or not.

Do you want a promotion? Pay bump? In that case you have to look at how happy your manager is with you. At the end of the day your manager has a major say in these two things, and if they're looking good because of your hard work, that's good for you.

The issue is if the manager takes credit and then turns around and tells you that your performance is not doing great. This does happen and the only, slim, chance you have of rectifying it is reaching out to a skip level. But again this also means you have to "want" to stay at the company and grow there.

I can't tell just from your comment so this could fall into either category of "that's just office politics" or "that's really a toxic org". It is quite possible that you actually don't want to deal with either of these and will likely be happier as a freelancer.

To answer your other question: I've been remote for many years, before the pandemic, and have not had trouble getting credit for my work when it matters. Generally good managers do like to show off the success of their team members because that also can make them look good.

In my experience with corporate structures, what is typically lost in communication is recognition. That's not to say you aren't receiving credit for work, but rather that no one is patting you on the back for it. The realization that other people know you exist usually only occurs when there's a problem and someone circumvents the hierarchy to get a faster resolution.

Taking credit for other's work though... that usually ends badly for the individual who is taking credit.

Maybe I've been fortunate in my career but the pattern I've observed is that good bosses always attribute successes to their team (e.g., we were able to do it) and failures to themselves (e.g., I missed that).

I mean no skip-level I know of would reasonably think that a manager they oversee has actually personally built something. Of course it's understood that there were ICs involved, and yes often the director-levels and up don't know who they are, and that is not that unusual. We're not talking about open source software here, you are recognized for your work with dollars.

I worked for a company that got acquired by a larger company and one of the main things they acquired was the tech I had built. I recall one day when several of us were standing around -- me, my boss, the CEO of the big company that acquired us, and another top executive. The CEO remarked to the other executive that my boss had "built the tech" that they were so happy about. Of course I had coded every line of it, but that's not the way business works -- the guy who makes things happen on the business side is the person who gets the credit, and that is as it should be. Think of bosses as programmers of people.

This is either astroturfed or one of the most depressing things I have ever heard another human genuinely believe.

“Nothin’ But A Hound Dog” was not, in fact, written by Elvis Presley. Windows 95 was not, in fact, programmed by Bill Gates.

At least they did more than order others to complete them.

If that's what you think a manager does then you have only had terrible managers or have never managed people yourself.

Did you read the rest of the thread before attempting a knee-jerk “gotcha.”

No, this is entirely correct.

You have to look at things at the right level of abstraction.

Bosses "program" people, they set them to work on things that need doing. They can be more or less involved in the actual process, but ultimately they're responsible for delivering the thing.

Developers write all the code. Some may feel that they built the whole thing (I have been that person) but that neglects the role others play in figuring out what needs building and actually making it happen.

Edit: I don't believe it's right for others to take credit for someone else's work. I just think that when an executive hears a boss "built" something, they don't think "wow, what an amazing coder". They don't think about code at all. This person delivered a thing that was built. They built it in the organization. That's all it means.

I've worked in two small companies and people get attribution for what they did. It is so much simpler to know who is involved, and nicer, too. You can reach the right people when needed.

The time someone takes credit for my work and refuses to fix this, I run. I can, there are so many nice places one can work at, especially with the raise of remote work which I happen to like.

I would not expect my bosses to take my credit. And I do recognize their involvement too. Actually, we edit a public open source project and publish extensions for it, and individual contributors are listed as authors, instead of just the company name.

Fair, unless you had to fight your boss to get to success.

> He mentioned the head of the project doesn't know I exist - thinks my boss made the entire thing.

Who is he? Sounds like he is just gossiping to you and stirring the pot.

I would hold off on getting upset till you are there in person to say, "So I heard yall liked the app I built" and that will be that.

You are doing yourself no favors by working from Bali. It isn't your fault, but it sounds like the company isn't used to remote. They hear "our developer in bali" as "some $4 per hour dev code monkey" (doesn't matter what they are actually paying you). Of course you aren't getting actual credit with that bias.

Whatever decision you make, be 100% sure first he is taking all the credit and using you as a “ghost coder”. Sometimes remote working environments make us think they are not taking in consideration our work. Try to skip a management level in an informal environment like a coffee machine and start a short pitch about “your project” with the boss of your boss.

I think the best you can do in is to talk directly with your boss and express your concerns.

You seem to already have delivered value to them, so you are in a good position to tell them what you would like to happen or how you feel about it.

If they are a good manager, you’ll get a good response and things will improve. If they are not, you wouldn’t want to work for them for much longer I guess…

Agreed that direct conversation is the only good approach.

But I also want to mention: have their been any actual outcomes from this project, or is the board just "excited about it"? Has there been revenue realized? If you ask for "credit" before there is real outcomes, you are basically asking for the boss to name drop you to their boss. While that's not _egregious_, personally I would wait until there are business outcomes as collateral to ask for real recognition: a promotion, more responsibility.

Just talk to him. Tell him you'd like to get more recognition from the higher-ups for the work you've done on the app. He might not be aware he's taking credit, just trying to streamline the information without explaining the nuts and bolts of how an app gets built. If he seems cagey, defensive, or tries to minimize your effort then take that as a signal that you should either be OK with him taking all the credit or look elsewhere.

In my experience, the higher ups are usually pretty aware of this kind of thing and will figure it out, and if they don't they're just going to get annoyed at you if you try to point it out.

Also, just an observation -- if you can build an app from scratch, in 3 months in Bali no less, can do freelancing to pay the bills, and don't like the corporate hierarchy -- what's stopping you from just doing your own app?

Who's idea was the app in conjunction with business responsibility.

Building an app does not equate to owning an app.

People often say that if you make your boss shine, then your boss will in turn make you shine (ie, get promoted, etc). This may work for small development companies, but what I've found is that at most big companies, they'll use your work to get themselves a higher promotion or that bigger bonus, and then jump ship to another team or to another company. The project they stole credit from you was just a stepping stone to them to get into a better place.

Absolutely fight back and claim credit. If your director or senior manager (ie, your boss's boss) knows you built it in its entirety, it's easier to get promoted this way rather than through your direct boss. That's because at cross calibrations, when the managers all get together to rate their reports for that enticing bonus/promo, the senior managers have to be convinced as to who should get what. So if your senior manager or director knows your name, then it's much easier to get that promo, and your boss can't hide it from them for his own gain since your name is already so well known.

That's just office politics, and everyone has to play whether you like it or not, unfortunately. Claim your title, don't depend on others if you did the work. Make yourself known, it's the only way to win.

My suggestion is to :

1) Put your name as Author in every bit of code you have written.

2) Document everything about the app and publish it in an internal wiki.

3) Find a way to distribute the wiki internally so everyone is aware of it.

4) Appreciate that the boss is taking your app to the board and is getting their sponsorship. Now ask for a good raise.

5) You don’t have to live in anyone’s shadow. Let people know what you do and get more familiar with the business side of things.

6) Credits Just like everything else in real world is complex and multidimensional.

> 1) Put your name as Author in every bit of code you have written.

Isn't that was `git blame` is for?

No, because ... - Not all bosses are programmers. - No everyone knows about Git or how to use it. - Who regularly Git Blames lines of code to see who the author was? - Who would rather see the author name stand out in first line of code file versus doing Git Blame? - You can easily move the codebase without the Git history to another location (easy to delete the .git subdirectory).

So it's best to add the author name as many places as possible and distribute it.

Do all these, and before you start doing anything figure out some major app limiting feature that needs to get done, and present that along with a demand for a raise.

No raise, good luck, you're heading to greener pastures.

No offense but if your boss thought of, designed and delegated to you a project, then he did build it. Most programmers on HN are competent enough to put together a project based on specs, that’s kinda baseline to be considered a programmer.

If you identified an opportunity, presented it to him, drove the process of getting it prioritized and built it, then you deserve credit and he should 100% be mentioning you.

I think your best bet is to just talk to your boss and start one a positive note.

Depending on how the board behaves, it may well be that he's doing you a HUGE favor by keeping them off your back. Also, there's a good chance that everyone knows that he can't code, and if he says "I built it" then everyone will know to look at his coders in the org chart and they'll find you there.

Management saying "I did X" when they mean "I coordinated my team to do X" is quite common in some companies, so I wouldn't assume bad intent based just on that. If that's the case here, he'll probably be happy to endorse you for your skills on LinkedIn. And your coworkers will notice ;)

> Don't want bad blood with the boss as he's a nice guy

Doesn't sound like it. He may not be outwardly evil, but... there's not much he needed to say when presenting this to people. "I didn't do this on my own - pmanning11 worked with me on this".

Unless he's screwed up by not following some particular policy about 'work being done offshore' or something similar, in which case... he's still not 'a nice guy'.

If there's any support/modifications that need to happen to this, everyone will find out pretty quickly that whoever they thought built it didn't build it.

"He mentioned the head of the project doesn't know I exist"

This makes me wonder if maybe you working remotely isn't exactly kosher and your boss is covering his and your behinds until you are in the office.

This was my take as well.. I was scrolling through the bottom of the comments to see if anyone had mentioned before I did. Hope OP sees this and considers it.

What is your goal in getting credit? The CEO doesn't give a flying fuck who wrote the code. If your goal is to get promoted into a managerial role or some additional compensation then talk to your boss directly about it, say you want some tangible and intangible recognition of your successful work on this. If you have no such goal then stop worrying about what the CEO thinks of you because he'll forget your name 3 seconds after he learns it.

> Over the past 3 months, I solo built an entire application from scratch that was presented to the Board 3 times

Before I address your concern, May I know who presented the app to the Board 3 times? If it's you, then they already know you are running the show. May you can stress you on few things like - challenges, uncertainty, ambiguity - you faced

Did you come up with the requirements and specs?

Did you do all the UX design?

Did you write the backend?

Did you do the QA testing? Did you get feedback from users and change the design based on their feedback?

If you did all of those things then you can say "I built it", if not, that you can say I was part of the team that built it. A major part perhaps, but a part.

why on earth would you move back to NJ?They didnt make you suffer enough the first time around?

A good boss is up front about this. Yes, he gets some credit for shepherding this product through (even if that is a minimal contribution in this case), but it is dishonest for him to mislead others he did it himself.

If the project is in SCM, then surely your name is literally all over it.

Sounds like you’re the ‘interchangeable cog’ in this story. Not much to do but put your name in the about box and look for meaningful work.

this happens all the time. your boss should give you the credit you deserve. if not, consider walking.

> he's a nice guy

Is he?

You can always code in easter eggs.

Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime.

This shit is old, if you've got a problem with it you can agitate the situation and most likely lose the gig. Or find other socialists to complain to, they will understand.

That's why I shit on company time