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Comment by samkater | Hacker News Reader

An eye-opening perspective came to me a few years ago when I first heard the quote,” When you’re 20, you care what everyone thinks, when you’re 40 you stop caring what everyone thinks, when you’re 60, you realize no one was ever thinking about you in the first place“[0] That can be good and bad, but is a personally useful frame of reference for the world. It helps to not take things too personally, but also to be intentionally active in people’s lives when I _want_ to be considered.

[0], not sure who to attribute: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/mar/08/viral-imag...

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But it's only half true. The anxiety over how others' perceive you is perhaps overblown, but you'd discount a whole lot of anxiety as irrational if you say that nobody forms judgments about you.

one way to look at it might be realizing that people mostly don't judge you but a stereotype they project onto you. or simply have their judgement clouded by their mood. with a bad mood seeking for people to judge badly and good mood seeking to judge people positively. also what they judge about you is often more telling about what is going on with them and their life, so at the end of the day most people judge themselves. in all meditation practices the goal is to stop judging and instead observe - for a good reason - it's healing b/c then you also stop judging yourself all the time.

That's a helpful perspective. Whenever I feel social anxiety or the spotlight effect creep up, I also try to remember how little I'm actually thinking about what others are doing around me. Maybe it's obvious, but simply flipping the point of view in that moment can help you not judge yourself so much.

Yes I do something similar and it seems to help. I'll ask myself, "How do I imagine this person might currently feel when they think about __?" And rotate thru different scenarios. Often I'll quickly realize how uncertain I am about their internal situation. I like how you talk about flipping it, maybe I can imagine how that person might imagine how I'm feeling right now as well. Thank you!

> people mostly don't judge you but a stereotype they project onto you.

This point deserves expansion.

Goffman's approach is how I first learned it. In order to explain the complexities of the world including the social world, people learn to typify behaviors. Typifications can become frames when they are used to interpret people's actions[1], "She did this because she's a woman" or "He did this because he's tired" where woman and tired are framing devices. Even "I did this because I was upset."

It takes a lot of work to resist framing people's actions. Perhaps it's even impossible to truly apprehend unframed behavior since even language itself is a framing device. But, seeing people closer to who they are is always valuable, and overly applying frames or rushing to frame peoples' actions does them an injustice to seeing them for who they are.

1. These are specifically frames which explain behavior. There are an infinite variety of frames. Browsers are frames, this comment being on HN is a frame.

Is absence of frame a frame?

I came upon this today and thought you might enjoy it.

> An absolute perspective, one of unconditioned objectivity, would, as Nietzsche says, have us “think an eye which cannot be thought at all, an eye turned in no direction at all, an eye where the active and interpretative powers are to be suppressed, absent, but through which seeing still becomes a seeing-something, so it is an absurdity and nonconcept of eye that is demanded.”

Framing and typification sound similar to literary deconstruction, except using words that are more comprehensible (less in-group).

It's alright if people form judgments about me, just like I do about them.

At the end of the day, mostly none of it matters, it's just easier to be authentic and straightforward all the time.

Maybe the anxiety were not irrational, but I can choose not to have it anyways.

I used to think that way, too. I used to tell myself, "This is who I am," "I am authentic," "Who cares what they think."

If your boss thinks you are an incompetent professional, or a rude and inadequate human being, or a weakling who gives in under pressure, it doesn't even matter if they are right or wrong, it's a big deal. The same goes for friends, family and all other people with whom we interact. We may or may not care, or care about some and not others, we may prefer "authenticity" to "appearance," but it is relevant. One thing I have learned over time: people think about you, not always and not all people. And you think about others, not all and not all the time.

The "no one cares what you do" is often an overreaction to insecurity.

It crosses boundary when it affects others though. i.e. in professional settings and performance related categories.

Being authentic does not translate to being a jerk or straight up sucking at work. But I don't quite worry about the fact that I'm growing bald or wearing a 15 year old tshirt half the time.

> But I don't quite worry about the fact that I'm growing bald or wearing a 15 year old tshirt half the time.

That's a very good example, and I use it for a question.

Let's say you are growing bald, you have been single for years, you have problems finding a partner, and it happens that (it is largely true according to my experience) women prefer men with hair (there are women who prefer bald, but having hair allows you to razor shave, so it means you can do hair and no hair).

It is expected that a hair transplant, for which you have the necessary money, will increase your chances of finding a partner from 10% to 70%, however you want to interpret these numbers.

Do you think that undergoing a hair transplant means (a) worrying excessively about the opinion of others, and thus you don't do it, (b) realizing that the world works a certain way and that listening to its feedback and adapting is, at least occasionally, a wise decision, and then having a transplant?

I am for (b) (I am a woman, but still).

If you change your physical appearance to increase the chances of finding a partner, you are increasing the chances of attracting the wrong people.

Why do you assume that attracting more people (b), or having a partner, is better than being single (a)?

I'm not sure if adapting is always better. Especially, when morality and rules in society are evolving constantly. If society prefered tattooed guys, over non-tattooed, should you embrace your personality (a) or put ink under your skin (b) to be more desirable?

I would choose (a).

If we began, correctly, according to genetic and sociological findings, to think that our behavior is as much defined by genes as our physical traits are, we would also begin to think differently about ourselves.

That is, we might begin to think that our generosity, intelligence, kindness, and admirable determination are as much a product of ourselves--that is, of our choices, sufferings, struggles, and genius--as a full head of hair or being long of legs.

But we tend to believe, especially in modern times (think about the ancient Greek "kalokagathìa"), that our character, our intelligence should be admired and make candid souls fall in love with us.

In contrast, physical traits that are not so popular, say, among the ladies--whether being short, bald or graceful in movement like an elephant in a china shop--we tend to believe, or want to believe, that are of little importance, something circumstantial, which only superficial people would focus on.

> you have problems finding a partner

See this is where the train stop for me.

I'm pretty utilitarian about things like this, being authentic here just means I don't quite care if my hair is gone, but if someone who I do care about cares about that my hair stays, I might be convinced to go through some of these hoops.

What I'm trying to get at is that most people are way too concerned about things that does not really matter. Either other people form an opinion that has no relevance, or that other people don't have an opinion but anxiety kicks in and one think they do. There are perfectly valid cases where opinions will have an impact but they are mostly going to be very obvious and rare in between.

It’s not easy to just stop caring about what people think of you or a lot of people would do it. We’re built to respond to social pressure whether we like it or not. The few that can not care (ie sociopaths) do incredibly well in our current society.

It's not half true. It's 95% true because you and others form judgements about each other but they:

1. Almost never stick for a long time.

2. Are rarely deemed important (most people are not vengeful).

3. Are usually minor.

For me, I don’t care what people think unless I respect them. If they haven’t earned my respect, why should I care about how they judge me?

Of course people form judgments about you. But it is very easy to exaggerate how consequential these judgments are. In the end, people are remarkably tolerant. They may think e.g. that you are an inconsiderate lout but that is perfectly ok with them as long as this does not hamper them in their own pursuits. Call it constructive disinterest.

This of course only applies to the people who don't matter.

When you're going to face prison time for using your rights or helping other people use their rights, people are clearly thinking about you.

There's no lack of doctors in very public view right now.

Maybe nobody cares specifically about the doctor in particular, but they don't care about not ruining the doctor's life, let alone the woman who gets the abortion

People still care very much about what Warren Buffett says... I think it's all about the value you generate during your lifetime, nut there's also the factor that people care about what Buffett says because they want to gain benefits from what he says, not because he's a particularly radiant guy and the life of the party.

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