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Comment by dzhiurgis | Hacker News Reader

Where I live there's something weird about ebikes, escooters and regulation. I can only buy ebike that goes up to 25km/h, yet escooters are like 1500W 90km/h beasts.

I don't mind if shop adds licence plate or whatever is needed for faster ebikes to be legal, just get it sorted.

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That's pretty much the same anywhere that chose to regulate it. It's about delineating between licensed and unlicensed users, and keeping a segment of vehicles off the footpaths. They essentially had to put the line in the sand somewhere, and they chose 25km/h. I can easily pedal faster than 25km/h, but the speed isn't really the whole point just a means to an end for regulatory purposes.

That line in the sand does a few things:

* Makes children ineligible for powered riding over 25km/h

* Forces anything powered faster through the right safety standards testing

* Applies a whole new segment of laws and penalties to your riding

* (in my country) forces you to wear a helmet that could actually stand up to an accident on the road

* Makes you join the liability/insurance infrastructure of licensed road use

In a car first community (like most of the US) I think it makes a lot of sense, in a bike focused community I think it's worth debating a bit. It would be great to ride a long separated bike path at 30-40kmph powered to work. Dreamy. But that's pretty rapid at the scale of humans and bikes, 40kmph anywhere but a separated bike path is just asking for trouble.

I ride an ebike where motor assist is limited up to 25km/h, and sometimes i whish EU regulation would allow it to just go a wee bit faster before the engine cuts out, e.g. 30-35 km/h. Thats no fast than coasting down a moderatly sized hill. I know you can hack your bike using various devices, but thats not worth it if I get into an accident.

All that expensive regulation does a great job of cementing the status quo where people default to cars for commuting.

It doesn't help no, but I think there are far bigger problems than that in the way of cycle commuting in most cities.

Your profile says Auckland. The law in NZ [0, 1] doesn't specify a speed limit but a power limit of 300W. It looks like you can buy a 45km/h ebike like [2].

The reason you probably see a lot of 25km/h ebikes is that in the EU, anything faster than that is regulated as a moped and requires a license, so I imagine the 25km/h bikes sell more.

The reason why even the faster bikes are 45km/h is also probably because that that's the maximum speed of a bicycle in the EU.

[0]: https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618

[1]: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-...

[2]: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45km...

There is no maximum speed limit for bicycles in the EU AFAIK. They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A... specifies that "Light two-wheel powered vehicle" can only go up to 45km/h.

Edit: so, yes, no speed limit for bikes, but speed limit for ebikes.

Yes, the difference is the "powered" part in the cited document. It's not terribly clear because they don't explicitly exclude acoustic bikes but they also never include acoustic bikes in any category that is to be legislated (article 4).

>>They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.

There was a court case about this actually, lol. A cyclist was caught by a police car going above the posted speed limit(I think it was 30km/h where he was), and he refused to accept the ticket. The case went to court and he argued that since the law doesn't require bicycles to be fitted with any instrument to measure speed, he is not required to know the exact speed he's travelling at. And weirdly....the court agreed and the ticket was cancelled.

why is that weird? seems like a quite reasonable argument

Because in almost all other situations of life you are required to obey the law even if you aren't aware of it. For a different example - cyclists aren't legally required to pass a driving test, yet are required to be familiar with, and obey all rules of the road. You couldn't argue in court that as a cyclist you don't have to stop on red because the law doesn't require you to pass a theory test before cycling. I find the situation similar - you should make sure not to go over the speed limit, even if the law doesn't require you to carry a speed measuring device with you.

fair points

for e-bikes there the pedal assist has to cut out when going over 25 km/h (+10% error, so at a maximum 27.5 km/h). So of course you can speed down a hill at 55 km/h, but it has to be unassisted. The motor cannot be more than 250W nominal power.

You can actually buy e-bikes going up to 45 km/h but they are regulated as scooters and has to be registered (usually free), requires a drivers license and the use of moped helmets and you're usually not allowed to use them in bike lanes. Oh, and you need insurance too. So for most people it's not worth the hassle.

Something like the eRockit is a better idea.

Can't be an EU law, few things are outside of the very specific scope of product feature requirements. Germany (part of the EU) has or exactly reverse: explicitly posted speed limits apply to bikes just like they do to powered vehicles, but the law that defines the implicit speed limits (50 inside cities, 100 outside) is written with wording that explicitly restricts its applicability to powered vehicles (that's how the superset of motorcycles, cars and trucks is usually written). This certainly wasn't the intention of that law, but it has been tested in court. When you use that loophole, "they" can't do anything about it other than invoking the catchall law of "don't do unreasonably irresponsible shit in traffic" (which certainly they can)

45km/h is the perfect speed to get honked at even by people who are following the speed limits. The only place they are useful is 30 km/h zones and for those a 25km/h electric bicycle is more versatile because you can use it on bicycle paths.

If you want to go 90 km/h shouldn't you be safer on a motorbike (electric or not) than on a bicycle? That's already sorted: license plate, driver license and insurance.

25km/h is a reasonable limit. It's the scooters that are unlicensed motorbikes and don't belong on bike paths or shared paths.

Any half-fit cyclist can do way more than 25kmh sustained on flats. From 30 up it becomes way harder. I'd put it at least at 30.

>>Any half-fit cyclist

So like, almost no one who cycles/commutes from time to time then? Don't get me wrong, 25km/h isn't particularily fast, but I'd struggle going at that speed for more than few minutes, and my wife definitely wouldn't keep up. I used to cycle loads when I was younger, on a proper road bike that kind of speed is nothing. But on a hardtail or a city bike? It's actually quite hard! We own an e-bike and I think the 25km/h assist limit is spot on.

Good for you if you only intend to use bike paths. If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h, peak 70 in most cities.

I'd much rather do that on a proper ebike and not on a escooter. I've got drivers licence already, bureaucracy shouldn't be in the way of registering ebikes as appropriate.

>> If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h

I'm sorry, but that's just not true - again, I used to cycle absolute loads(several thousand km a year) and "sustaining"(doing it for a long period of time without getting absolutely destroyed) 50km/h is extremely hard, you need to be a pretty good cyclist and on a good road bike.

And no, you don't need to be keeping up with traffic, in cities or otherwise. Don't see why you think you should.

Context is ebike, not by foot.

I had bike that could do 50km/h and it was just a bit too slow. You wanna be comfortable overtaking cars, not just be squished in-between.

That's an electric motorbike. Get it registered and with road rated hydraulic disc brakes, wheels, and suspension and wear road rated safety gear. It doesn't belong on separated bikeways with children and mixed use paths with babies and dogs.

An ebike is for the same roles as a human powered bikes, and no human can consistently move at speeds that are comfortable for overtaking cars on the flat or uphill.

Escooters, if anything, should be even slower as their geometry makes emergency braking impossible, but a 25km/h, 250W limit for everything is an acceptable compromise to reduce regulatory burden.

If you want a stand up scooter that produces kilowatts and does 90, then it's also an electric motorbike (or motor scooter/moped where that's a category) and should be held to the same safety standards.

I think you missed my og post. These bikes are capable doing such speeds, but no one sells them because regulation

I do effortless(=no transpiration) 30 to 35km/m on flat grounds with no headwind sustained. Where 'sustained' means something like 10 to 15 minutes max, since after that I either arrived at my location, or on longer tours I have to slow down many times for other traffic, pedestrians, traffic lights, etc.

On a three speed 28" from ca. 1985 btw., weighing 12kg with side dynamo, lights, mudguards, rack, and a wirebasket fixed with a bunch of cable ties on top of that(for my back pack).

For any half fit cyclist, the 25kmh ebike limit is the minimum speed. That is the speed you go uphill. Downhill and flats, you can go a lot faster, because you didn't spend your energy accelerating to 25.

But then you're on your own with a bike that weights at least 10 kg more than it should. I was in a group of friends. One of us had an ebike. He was good on our way to the hills and of course uphill. We had to stop and wait him a lot of times on the way back, because we were doing at least 30 and he was struggling to keep the pace without the help from the engine. I suggest not to mix bikes and ebikes unless you are out for a slow Sunday afternoon trip.

In a large enough group the body weight differences easily outweigh (heh) the bike weight differences. And of course the fitness differences are a whole other story.

I'd also be pro 32, but 25 is fine. I tend to do 25-28 on my electric (weird geometry so it's unstable at higher speeds without a load) and 15-35 on my acoustic.

Sustaining over 30 is actually a fair bit of work on an upright though. The vast majority of people do under 25 on flats or uphills most of the time.

and I trust a half fit cyclist more. If you can pedal 40km/h on the flats, then you know enough bike handling to do it compared to giving any random person who can normally only do 20km/h the power to go 40km/h.

Put a speed limit on a bike path then, not on device. Same on pedestrian paths - going over 10km/h on any vehicle or even running is unsafe.

I agree 25km/h is probably reasonable for a bike path - most city traffic averages around that speed anyway, so if your vehicle is capable - go mix with the cars instead.

> Put a speed limit on a bike path then, not on device.

No. Speed limits require enforcement which is costly and socially harmful, adds massive overhead to owning a bike, and does not work. Just look at cars. Then you need safety features on the road, ppe, and vehicle for dealing with people that are moving faster anyway.

Then there's a slippery slope towards mandated tracking and anti repair garbage that we're already sliding down. Yamaha and Bosch are already lobbying for geofencing.

If you want a powered vehicle for mixing with cars at car speeds, we already have a category for that -- it's called a motorbike.

If you want a powered vehicle for doing 50km/h we have a category for that -- microcars and mopeds. Lobby for more 40 and 50 zones that are only for those (and for bicycles and pedestrians to share at their own judgement as they do roads).

Ebikes are already excessively large and heavy due to improper testing methodology on power limits. We don't need giant, overpowered machines and importing the arms race on size and mandatory safety regulations from roads.

I disagree, just get a scooter at that point. Large part of the ebike appeal is You would not need a drivers license and registration for it.

That's kinda crazy...

Here in Western Australia they're all limited to 25km/h, though you can go faster on the bike using your legs, the electronic assist must cut out there.

How widely these rules are actually followed, I have no clue.

The problem with my bike was after 27km/h the motor would cut out. you could pedal harder to go faster although it'd feel like pedalling through mud without the motor.

Once I removed the speed limit, it is limited by my pedalling and the gearing speed combined with the limit of the motor. it feels natural like a bike.

Sadly, even with accoustic bikes you get the antisocial on shared paths riding furiously. I worry that if defeating assistance limiters becomes mainstream then the antisocial out there won't even need to exert themselves to ruin it for everyone.

It is true. I think the limit should be there by default, even though I modded mine. I talked to others in a cycle group and they commonly had older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike.

Personally I only ride full speed without the limiter when on the road. If riding on paths or populated areas then I slow down to a cruise.

> older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike.

Apparently a big driver of injury rates increasing in The Netherlands - old people on new ebikes riding like they're 20 again.

You can easily "game" the cut out by changing what the system thinks your tyre diameter is (depending on the system)

Edit: not saying you should.

Yes and some other systems have a magnet / sensor to measure speed so this can also be manipulated.

You can buy modchips online that remove the speed limit. I did this for my ebike which was limited to 25km/h. With the modchip installed it can go much faster.

Some countries are starting to clamp down on shenanigans like this, since without the speed limit an e-bike or an electric scooter is in the moped/motorcycle category and needs to be registered like one.

I don't like it, but it could perhaps be fixed with changing the regulations. However, e-scooters are really getting a bad reputation in the media lately and that is probably not helping the cause.

Whether its escooter or ebike - if you drive anywhere near 25km/h on pedestrian paths - it's already messed up.

Do whatever you want on the road, so long your ebike can withstand 50km/h. No way escooters can do those speeds safely.

> No way escooters can do those speeds safely.

Of course they can, but you'll eventually be killed by a car. People drive like shit and don't care if they kill someone on a scooter.

For good reasons: increasing speed without uprating the rest of the system - brakes in particular, is looking for trouble.

Also, 25 km/h vehicles are fit to mingle with bicycles on cycleways, whereas superior speeds belong on the road with the registered motorized traffic. Different beasts, different regulations.

And then there is liability and insurance - those are why the clampdown will happen fast.

Don’t you loose insurance in this case? Don’t know where you live, but in Germany you would.

In most countries you would be found 100% at fault regardless of anything else in an accident, since you illegally modified your bike.

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