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Comment by WalterBright | Hacker News Reader

> Things like automation, while highly efficient, result in most of the gains going to capital owners.

More goes to society. You don't see it because it is spread thinly. Think of how nice it is to have a microwave, for example. The value of my time saved is far more valuable to me than what I paid for the microwave.

Everything you and I buy we buy because the value of what we are buying is worth more to us than the money we give up to pay for it.

> How society should deal with this is another interesting question.

As I showed, society is getting the long end of the stick already.

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> More goes to society. You don't see it because it is spread thinly. Think of how nice it is to have a microwave, for example. The value of my time saved is far more valuable to me than what I paid for the microwave.

This was the promise. But all we really have today is cost disease. For every microwave the US also has infrastructural costs that are 10x+ that of other countries and a culture that is being increasingly incentivized to hand over their wealth for short-term, materialistic gains, and goods/services that aren't worth the price being charged.

To say nothing of the fact that in most cases, said microwaves leaves you with lower-quality results concomitant with the time you saved. Which really feels like all of life; we are being sold a bill of plenty that is only paper-thin

Do you own a microwave? I bet you do. I bet if it broke you'd buy another one, because you'll find it worth the money. Ditto for your other appliances, like your dishwasher, stove, oven, vacuum cleaner, toilet, shower, phone, etc.

Don't forget the computer you bought to access HackerNews with!

My point is that those things are a red herring. The people peddling this shit peddle a narrative of increased efficiency, better life, and so on, focusing us on these little incremental improvements, while they pillage other parts of the world to bring you these things.

And you very clearly overestimate the need for a microwave. A gas oven, range, or BBQ produces considerably better results for many things for only a 2x or 3x investment of time and effort. I have several friends that have opted not to own a microwave.

Hell, large parts of the world don't have a microwave and they're fine. There's a good chance they are even building our microwaves for us. You know, I would rather we focus our efforts on lifting them up so that they can have their own microwaves and other nice things before I stand in line to buy yet another microwave, because it was made so poorly by microwave makers that cheap out on microwave building.

Do you believe a microwave involves more pillaging than a gas oven?

Let's say a modern oven isn't available. Just a word burning one. Operating one is an all day amount of work (there's little that's romantic about it). They're dangerous, filthy, and the smoke damages your lungs. If people switched to wood ovens the rest of the world's forests would be pillaged (stripped) of all wood. A wood burning stove has a lot of iron in it, that requires an enormous amount of energy to smelt.

BTW, you should know that gas appliances are a major source of indoor air pollution. Microwaves aren't.

Also, I usually get 10 years out of a microwave. Not bad for an appliance. If you want to save the environment, they sell them in thrift stores for $10-20.

Considering that said microwave uses a lot more electronics than said oven and lasts 1/3 to 1/5 as long as one (per your own observations), between the energy consumption (because you are almost certainly not getting your energy from renewable sources) and the increasingly large bill of materials (with the microwave requiring many more exotics) averaged out over total lifespan, I would bet that a microwave and a gas oven are quite competitive over the long-term.

But the microwave is producing more waste as it isn't built to last as long, and the items you cook in it are probably wrapped in chemical-seeping plastic and printed cardboard. So the volume of waste with use is considerably higher as well.

And I'm not even considering electric ovens, which are becoming increasingly mandated.

Electric ovens have a lot more material in them, and use a great deal more energy to heat your food.

Consider also that microwaves are considerably cheaper than gas or electric ovens, which is a strong clue that they are also much less costly and polluting to manufacture.

I own a microwave, well not really, the apartment im renting comes with one and in all the years I’ve been here I did not use it even once. If it broke I wouldn’t miss it, I’d probably use the space it occupies more efficiently.

Im inferring the point op was making was the price we pay for all these shortcuts and modern lifestyle should make us think well what is essential and do away with the rest.

Using your stove is far more environmentally costly than the microwave.

You may be absolutely right in terms of efficiency but it’s tangent to what op’s point was about.

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