Designing the Characters of 'Cowboy Bebop'
animationobsessive.substack.com
animationobsessive.substack.com
> Before Cowboy Bebop, I met this composer. And the composer was female and very eclectic. And during the production, she would kinda just roll around on the floor and do very strange things. And on occasion she would make strange noises. I thought it would be interesting if I could put her in as a character in my next series.
Yep that tracks
But personally, I found Ed (in the anime) to be super annoying. I wish her character was written differently.
https://yokokanno-ojaru-jp.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sch=http&_x...
The music of hers that I like is great music and if she was influenced by other songs then that's mostly alright I think.
The couple of songs that are more copies/ripoffs than just "influenced by" do irk me, but from what I saw last time I looked into this none of my favourites were straight ripoffs.
I enjoyed it for what it was, a reimagining. Vicious' actor was terrible but he picked up towards the end. John Cho did a good nod to Spike, Mustafa Shakir killed it as Jet, and Daniella Pineda was decent as Faye.
What absolutely caught my attention was the production quality of the sets though out the show. Each shot felt heavily inspired by the original material and I can honestly study them for awhile at a time, pausing throughout episodes to catch the little details. It was akin to the sets of I.T. Crowd.
It's a beautifully shot show and I challenge others to at least study some scenes. I refuse to believe that I'm alone in this opinion!
I preferred the original - some lines in the live-action felt cheesy (in a "pull you out of the fiction" way, not a "this is a strong genre piece and we're leaning into the genre" way), and I felt like the criticism of capitalism in the LA was dulled-down to the point of near-absence - but the LA was certainly enjoyable, and, as you say, spectacularly set-dressed and shot.
At one point I remarked to my partner that "everything about this show is fantastic except for the script"
A scene for scene live reenactment would’ve been boring.
Just like that Halo show. You can switch things up a bit and do great.
I might just have low standards, but I never really feel as disappointed as a lot of the community seems to be whenever there's a live action adaptation - be it of Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop or something else.
It's sometimes interesting to see how certain aspects of the original are carried over or changed in the live action. Also, Cowboy Bebop was just pretty to look at!
Though I'm not sure why so many people complained about the cast back then. The actors were great and fit their roles reasonably well aside.
It so isn't. It's got that ugly flat daytime soap lighting that ruins so many of these streaming shows, I guess because they think they can save money by not paying for a good dp.
> I enjoyed it for what it was, a reimagining.
Akin to the various incarnations of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I LOVED the movie. Perfect romantic story.
The radio play, TV series, books, and then movie were all their own thing. And best enjoyed as such.
The critics (of either) would complain if they were being hung with an old rope. They suck all the oxygen out of the room.
The original intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL-D9LrFJd4
The English dub is better than most, and if you really can't deal with subtitles, go for it - but the original voice actors were some of the best and there's so much there, it's a bit of a shame to miss out on it if you can tolerate reading the subtitles.
It's easy to find the dubbed first episode of the anime series online on youtube, if anyone wants to get their feet wet.
I still don't know what Netflix was thinking, trying to take on one of the most beloved and respected animes ever made, and giving it the budget and casting of a SyFy Channel C-grade doomsday movie.
I still rewatch certain episodes every now and then.
That and the Gundam/Macross series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBdxUNk1wR4
Do not watch the dub.
The japanese, even though I don't understand it, has a better tone and the talking doesn't sound forced.
The sub is more serious sounding and is a reflection of what the directors vision was. The english version is a mangling of what cowboy bebop was intended to be. Heck Faye in japanese sounds like a 25 year old woman while in the English version she sounds 40.
> also don't see why it needs to be like how normal people talk, because it's literally a cartoon.
You realize that anime is a genre in itself that can be as serious as anything else out there? Japanese voice actors are the best in the world. Cowboy bebop has comedic elements but the genre is NOT cartoon, it's science fiction noir with a jazzy element and kung fu. Nowhere in there is "cartoon."
I think you like cartoons. And you like the warped version of what cowboy bebop was not intended to be. Or is this really true? The ending was serious. Was the ending still cartoony to you?
Maybe it isn't that you like cartoons. Maybe you're just use to the voice actors and can see past the horrible acting. Or maybe you're not use to subs. Even so the fact that you can hear the bad acting from the dub shows that you're preference is less than objective. The Japanese version has definitively better acting.
I can't accept the dubbed versions level of acting in a regular Hollywood movie, so I can't accept it if it's in an anime too. The bar doesn't lower for me just because it's an animation, but I guess it does for you.
Not really, comical in the funny sense, like I find it entertaining.
> You realize that anime is a genre in itself that can be as serious as anything else out there?
I didn't say that it can't be serious, many cartoons are serious, but even if it's serious that doesn't mean it's like how normal people talk. You do know that Japanese people don't talk like people in anime?
> I think you like cartoons. And you like the warped version of what cowboy bebop was not intended to be. Or is this really true? The ending was serious. Was the ending still cartoony to you?
The serious parts of Cowboy Bebop came off as serious in the dub for me.
> The bar doesn't lower for me just because it's an animation, but I guess it does for you.
I think I just have different tastes to you, which you seem to find confusing or difficult to accept. I guess you would prefer a global hegemony of boring humans that have identical opinions to you, but that's not how it is.
I've watched a reasonable amount of anime, and I almost always prefer the dub, be it Cowboy Bebop, Welcome to the NHK, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Pokemon, even Steins;Gate
I like the Japanese cartoons as much as American ones, but I prefer the English dubs
No, cartoons aren't drawn seriously. There can be serious moments with cartoons You can clearly a difference between how a cartoon is drawn and how a realistic anime is drawn.
Yes, you are correct most anime in japanese is highly stylized. Not cowboy bebop though. Cowboy bebop is realistic in terms of voice acting. Many more realistic animes that are more realistically drawn also drop the stylized voice acting.
>The serious parts of Cowboy Bebop came off as serious in the dub for me.
You've admitted there's bad acting. So basically you can take bad acting seriously.
>I think I just have different tastes to you, which you seem to find confusing or difficult to accept. I guess you would prefer a global hegemony of boring humans that have identical opinions to you, but that's not how it is.
There's a concept of bad taste and good taste. Nobody is explicitly saying it but this is what the discussion is about. I am saying your taste is bad. You're saying cowboy bebop is a cartoon, so bad acting is acceptable and therefore you have good taste.
>I've watched a reasonable amount of anime, and I almost always prefer the dub, be it Cowboy Bebop, Welcome to the NHK, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Pokemon, even Steins;Gate
Yeah. I can see that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDtYYrcByNE the person who made this video agrees with you on NGE.
What does this mean? There are a lot of cartoons that have a huge amount of effort put into them.
> You can clearly a difference between how a cartoon is drawn and how a realistic anime is drawn.
Are you 12? People in Japanese cartoons do not look and act like humans either.
> You've admitted there's bad acting. So basically you can take bad acting seriously.
Of course I can take bad acting seriously, can't you? That sounds like a you problem.
> There's a concept of bad taste and good taste. Nobody is explicitly saying it but this is what the discussion is about. I am saying your taste is bad. You're saying cowboy bebop is a cartoon, so bad acting is acceptable and therefore you have good taste.
Well, I think your taste is bad, so I don't see what there is to do other than to give up against each other. Again, you aren't going to prove that my taste is bad lol
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDtYYrcByNE the person who made this video agrees with you on NGE.
I actually prefer the Netflix dub
First, it's an anime, not a cartoon. They are different things with a different history.
Second, cartoon or not that does not justify silly voices and poor acting. Just because something is not live action or CGI it does not mean it should be dubbed like the Smurfs.
Additionally, the original author decided the style of the voicing. Dubbing for other languages should respect the author intention and not butcher their work.
I don't see much of a difference between calling it a Japanese cartoon and an anime. In English they're called cartoons, so I think that's a non-issue
> Second, cartoon or not that does not justify silly voices and poor acting.
> Just because something is not live action or CGI it does not mean it should be dubbed like the Smurfs.
As I said to the other reply, I'm not saying cartoon = silly, I'm saying cartoon = not reality. Even if it were dubbed with serious Japanese voice acting, do you think normal Japanese people talk that way? No.
Cowboy Bebop has funny moments and it has serious moments, I think the funny moments come through better in the dub, and the serious moments are portrayed excellently too. I think the English dub is high quality and more entertaining, and I enjoy it more than the Japanese voices with subs.
It's a huge issue. Cartoons are silly. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are cartoons. Cartoons are for kids. Spike Speagal is not a toon. You know the distinction, please don't pretend you don't know.
>As I said to the other reply, I'm not saying cartoon = silly, I'm saying cartoon = not reality. Even if it were dubbed with serious Japanese voice acting, do you think normal Japanese people talk that way? No.
No movie or cinema = reality. Everything is made up. So this is actually a non-issue.
Second, you're not stupid. Many animes including cowboy bebop are drawn like comics. With a more realistic style. You understand this concept, please don't pretend you don't. You know exactly what I mean when I say this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cartoon
Is less realistic then this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=spike+speagal
You see the difference visually right? If not then I can't help you. If you do see that the realism is increased in the second link, then I have to tell you, the voices also need increased realism to match or many people wouldn't be ok with it. I have a friend who is similar to you doesn't even notice bad acting, he likes shows with laughable acting like the flash on the WB. I think you might be like him.
>Cowboy Bebop has funny moments and it has serious moments, I think the funny moments come through better in the dub, and the serious moments are portrayed excellently too.
Your definition of "better" does not include good acting. Since anime is not reality and movies and basically everything you see on TV is not reality.... it seems to me you just don't care for good acting in general. It's a non-issue to you. So the shitty acting in all dubbed anime, cowboy bebop included,... you wouldn't mind seeing all the weird ass "Huh?"s and pauses I see in dubs in a Hollywood live action movie. Or is there a difference here? You tell me.
>Even if it were dubbed with serious Japanese voice acting, do you think normal Japanese people talk that way? No.
Most anime has over stylized voices. Cowboy bebop is NOT such an anime. The voice actors are realistic and representative of how real Japanese talk.
But even so the stylized voices need a certain level of realism so the japanese people can be drawn into the story. No American dub hits that level of realism at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLmsVBgZiak
I mean if you can watch above and say the voice acting passes because it's a "cartoon" and not real I think we're just too different.
There are a lot of serious cartoons or comedic cartoons with serious elements. Also Cowboy Bebop is the latter, it's pretty comical in general, even in the sub.
> You see the difference visually right? If not then I can't help you. If you do see that the realism is increased in the second link, then I have to tell you, the voices also need increased realism to match or many people wouldn't be ok with it. I have a friend who is similar to you doesn't even notice bad acting, he likes shows with laughable acting like the flash on the WB. I think you might be like him.
Why does a slightly more realistic visual style mean that the actors must give voice acting that is realistic?
> But even so the stylized voices need a certain level of realism so the japanese people can be drawn into the story. No American dub hits that level of realism at all.
Have you considered that Japanese people and westerners want different things from anime?
If there is an entertaining, hilarious VO with bad acting, and a serious, realistic one with good acting, I'm going to choose the former. I'm watching the show to be entertained, not to be bored.
Why can't you just accept that I prefer dubs to subs and move on? You aren't going to "prove me wrong" in a matter of taste.
* Spike's voice is a little higher in English, which (IMO) works well with his light-hearted refusal to take anything seriously
* Faye sounds more like a girl than a woman in Japanese
* There was at least one case of "English in Japanese" ("Great-o Spirit-o" around 3:30), which always makes it hard for me to take subs seriously
I find the original audio enjoyable as an alternative way to explore the episodes, but I got a great deal of enjoyment from the casting and the acting.
For example, Cowboy Bebop I enjoy both, though probably prefer the dub a bit more. If I’m watching Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, my preference changes season to season since the cast is always changing, and the context of the story changes which I think makes one better over the other. In other cases I’ve definitely preferred the sub.
I don’t think my point is view is unique, but I also don’t see it reflected in discussions much. What’s your take on it?
I can't help but think most people with such a high opinion of it are at least partially looking at it through nostalgia goggles.
It’s a bad fit if the expectation is something with a strong serialized narrative or lots of drama (aka “highly bingeable”), because it’s episodic and more focused on building a world for the characters to exist in, exploring it through those characters, and creating a particular vibe. I think it actually works best watched in original broadcast form… an episode per week, allowing some time for each episode to percolate a bit mentally.
That's exactly what I did, one episode fits perfectly within the wash cycle.
Did it fail? I enjoyed it! I don’t stay up to date with the critics though. Hope this doesn't mean the second season won’t get made.
Personally, as a fan of the animated series, I thought it was awful and only made it through the first episode and half of the second.
Now, I know getting canceled by Netflix means little. I gave this show a chance, after being impressed with the intro sequence remake, but found it to be soulless. Maybe Cowboy Bebop just doesn't translate to live action; what seemed charming in the original was played for kitsch in the remake.
I couldn't even make it to the last episodes.
The problem was the horrible writing and the campy tone. They turned the series into a WB show with cartoon characters. Vicious was laughably cheesy.
I was expecting Casino Royale set in space, but young and jazzy and cool. Instead we got standard Netflix wall spaghetti.
It's like taking pasta, tomatoes, cheese, olive oil, raw chicken breast, etc and throwing them in a blender, tossing the paste into a pan and baking it, and being amazed that you somehow didn't reproduce a mouth-watering delicious chicken Parmesan.
Funny timing on that simile. Right now I'm watching a Cutthroat Kitchen episode where contestants almost have to do that very thing.
The problem is that they completely botched it. It's embarrassing to watch.
The show had potential, but the casting was bad, the character design was bad, the writing was bad, the directing was sub-par, and the aesthetic was 75% there which just isn't enough for something like this.
Joss Whedon has his turn with Cowboy Bebop when it was called 'Firefly' :P
The rest wasn't really that much better, but it at least had nostalgia going for it.
They didn't find that person in casting.
Series failure inevitable.
The anime is one of the best of all time though, so I understand why people had high expectations.
So, their solution is to put a lot of effort into season 1 and, if it does really well, put vastly diminished resources into season 2. If season 1 doesn't blow their metrics out the window, they just cancel it. Since season 2's produced under this approach are usually pretty rough (e.g. Altered Carbon), there are almost never season 3's. There are exceptions (e.g. Stranger Things), but there are an awful lot of Netflix shows that never get a second season despite a very respectable first season (e.g. Marco Polo).
The anime version of Cowboy Bebop is a classic. In general, it's hard to remake a classic and leave fans of the classic happy. When the first shots of the costumes and cast came out I almost completely dismissed the Netfix series. Harold from Harold&Kumar is Spike? Jet looked like a janitor. The hype wasn't there for me.
So, I delayed watching the series, heard the grumblings, and went in with low expectations.
This is not Netflix's A-game. They did a great job in some respects, but really cheaped out in others.
The casting is a mixed bag, but mostly good. John Cho is actually pretty good as spike and Mustafa Shakir is brilliant as Jet. Pineda's Faye Valentine was less good. While Spike and Jet still felt at least somewhat like the anime characters, Valentine in the Netflix series was just off, and far too comical. Ed shows up only in the last episode and, well... Yeah. Let's face it, Ed is a difficult role and has to be played by someone fairly young. If I were directing a series like this I'd definitely want to shoot several episodes from later in the series with Ed before shooting the introduction precisely because of how hard it is to jump into the roll. The actor who played Ed was set up to fail.
The effects are good and the Bebop plus Swordfish are very well realized. The action is fairly well choreographed. The sets outside the ship are where Netflix got cheap. The rewrote things to reuse several locations a lot, such as the bar. The same junkyard set stands in for an assortment of locations and seems to pop up every episode, minimally redressed and shot from different angles.
The writing is where Netflix deviated from the anime most substantially. The plots of some episodes are almost totally unrecognizable, and generally do not compare well to the anime. The writers chose to flesh out and make explicit more of the syndicate backstory, with far more of Spike, Viscious, and Julia's past shown. The show becomes more interesting because of this. If they'd done a more faithful remake there'd have been less reason to watch the show. I'd have preferred that Ein's treatment was just a little more faithful though. Poor dog got screwed.
If you're a fan of the anime, lower your expectations, expect something a little different, and you may enjoy the Netflix series. I'd watch Season 2 even knowing it would be one of Netflix's usual half-efforts with a greatly reduced budget. It's not the anime but, if you like the genre, it's worth watching.
[Edit] Looks like the AS promos are still on Youtube: https://youtu.be/Qh8JkogEaFs
Good times.
Imho this is why the live action version fails to capture the essence of the original. It is strictly derivative of the anime and not the prior art.