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Comment by hopescope | Hacker News Reader

"I could care less if this is open source" David Mitchell explains why this phrase makes no sense and means exactly that opposite of what you want to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

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The phrase is usually used ironically: "I could care less" is used to mean the opposite "I couldn't care less".

Similarly, when my daughter says "Nice hat, Dad", she is not actually complimenting me on my choice of haberdashery, but rather, pointing out that she thinks it is not nice at all.

This message brought you by Irony: Making Communication More Interesting Since the Dawn of Language.

You are talking about sarcasm. Not irony. And a commonly made grammar mistake isn't irony. Unless your whole post was wrapped in a big <sarcasm> tag and I've just made a fool out of myself.

The relationship between sarcasm and irony is subtle; sarcasm often makes use of irony, but is characterized by its "biting" nature. The quote from my daughter is ironic and sarcastic; the quote about "caring less" is ironic, and may or may not be sarcastic depending on the context.

Irony here refers to verbal irony, a discrepancy between the literally meaning of a phrase and its intended meaning, such as saying "What a nice day!" when it is raining.

Thus, "I could give a shit" and "I couldn't give a shit" are identical in meaning, as the former is doubtless intended ironically. Similarly for caring less.

It's a contranymic idiom. A contridiom!

No. He is talking about irony, not sarcasm. Irony is typically understood to mean saying A while being aware (or of the opinion) that !A. Viz. "Nice hat, dad", or "Real good idea" (when it's not). Sarcasm (cutting remarks) often involve irony, but not always; it's an orthogonal concept.

Also, dropping the "not" in "Could not care less" is not reasonably said to be a grammar mistake. It's usually not sarcasm, either. Whether you agree that it's irony is a different matter (I'm pretty sure it's not).

For what it's worth, I would not classify this as irony (or at least it's hardly a prototypical case). I'm sure the current meaning of "I could care less" is quite thoroughly conventionalized: it's part of everyday speech, and many people do not notice any non-literal effects such as irony -- as evidenced by the prescriptionist videos which feel the need to explain to people the "true" meaning of the expression. Irony may have had a role in the etymology of the expression. All of this is very similar to a dead metaphor.

In fairness, I wouldn't offer the pedantry of a prescriptionist who was moved to create a video as evidence that the average person doesn't get the sarcasm of "I could care less". I think it's rather more likely that the average person couldn't care less whether the phrase is literally correct, as long as the listener or reader understands its meaning.

I'm sure most people would see the original non-literal features of the phrase if they were to think about it. The point is, they don't! Not because they're dumb but because the entire expression has unit status in their vocabulary. The fact that people do not notice the original non-literalness in the phrase (and indeed understand it as intended) is evidence that it's not non-literal anymore.

I'm harping on about this because it's such a nice poster child for an entrenched (conventionalized) meaning of an entire expression as opposed to just a word, and for the lack of componentiality of meaning in language. In other words, there's more to the meaning of a sentence than just the meaning of its words. Componentiality is one of the points of debate between different schools of thinking in linguistics.

I suppose I just have a hard time getting too exercised about what is, essentially, a banal artifact of a highly idiomatic language. When I find myself getting bogged down over a particular expression, I step back and ask myself: if person A uses this expression, will person B understand what they mean? Really, this is all that really matters.

> I'm sure the current meaning of "I could care less" is quite thoroughly conventionalized: it's part of everyday speech

Only in some places - I can only remember having heard it on television from the US. I shiver in pain every time I hear it, too, so I'm pretty sure I haven't heard it in person (having lived in New Zealand and Australia).

This argument is pervasive on HN. Here is the best example of it[1], and please see CodyRobbins posts[2] on the subject as some of HN's best posts ever.

[1] - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=853100

[2] - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=854042

Really now? Next you'll be telling us that "then" is used ironically instead of "than", even when "than" is what people mean.

Face it, people say "I could care less" for the same reason they say "then" instead of "than". There's just something about the English language that makes most of its native speakers unable to use it.

You came up with this irony theory because you've made the same mistake yourself, and your ego wants to deflect the accompanying shame.

The word "not" is not a particularly big word, but then again, most native speakers can't use "than" either.

It's amazing what an outburst of theorizing wankery your comment sparked.

Wow. at first I thought you were linking to something actually interesting and thoughtful regarding the nature of security and open source software. Turns out you were being boorish, prejudicial and wrongheaded about the absolutely normal and acceptable use of language. There is no such thing as linguistic prescriptivism. What you are espousing is the linguistic intellectual equivalent of creationism. It only exists in unfortunate circles of bored, annoying laymen and their grammarian fore-bearers, who were equally unfortunate bored and annoying. For 10,000 reasons why you should leave everyone alone with your silly prejudices, see Language Log or any other of the dozen or so blogs linguists run. </rant>

If that you could care less is the most you can say about something, that's an insult. If you say that you couldn't care less, that's just a lie - you're responding to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_with_faint_praise

I love David Mitchell, but this rant by other people is a long held irritation of mine: false pedantry:)

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