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Comment by Qub3d | Hacker News Reader

Jason, the cofounder of Schiit Audio (its pronounced exactly as you think it is) regularly posts updates about the company to an audiophile forum, and his posts regarding the supply chain problems they've fought in the past 2 years are fascinating:

* https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of...

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Now there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I enjoy the company's no-nonsense designs, but as Audio Science Review and NwAvGuy have proven, objectively higher quality audiophile equipment can be bought or built for much less money than Schitt is asking for.

Objectivity and audiophile in the same sentence always makes me suspicious, especially when you are looking at the 100s to 1000s of extra dollars for 3-5% improvement on measurements (and good luck detecting that in an ABX test).

I moved to a modi/magni stack from a Fiio portable and I don't know if I'll ever bother to upgrade again.

Ironically, I'd be pretty hard pressed to believe you could tell the "quality" from a Fiio DAC compared to an iPhone

IIRC the iPhone dac/amp is supposed to be fairly decent for driving, like, normal headphones. At least in the past (not sure in the post-dongle days).

The Apple USB-C dongle is actually pretty well regarded as an inexpensive step up from onboard audio for “normal” headphones, and some folks will use it as a starter DAC to pair with an amp for less “normal” headphones …

sadly, it doesn't support mic if on windows - at least last time I've tried

That's interesting. It looks really tiny on their site, so I guess the analog signal must be generated in the computer? So it seem more like a "PC manufacturers typically put more effort into their USB implementation than their 3.5mm implementation" sort of thing, I guess?

It's even more interesting, there really is a tiny DAC embedded in the Lightning connector:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Lightning+to+Headphone...

Neat! I had no idea. Wonder if their USB-C version is better than the one that came with my non-Apple laptop...

It would likely be quite easy if you could compare them back to back, as in swapping from one to the other and playing a controlled source with a hi-fidelity amp and good headphones. The analog side of digital-analog conversion is an art unto itself and I've found a lot of variance between DACs, even though I'm neither a sound engineer nor an audiophile. If you are just playing a 64k AAC file on your EarPods, probably not.

I use my iPad for ear training and I can absolutely tell the difference between my DragonFly red and the Apple USB-C DAC. I'm just better with the DragonFly.

Don't get me started on the Bluetooth headsets. For music they are ok but there's really basic interval training that I score 100% on with the DAC and like 80% with Bluetooth. Consistently.

Tangentially related: what tool(s) do you use for ear training on iPad?

I use Complete Ear Training for interval training, with the grand piano or the Rhodes sound pack. I switch pack every once in a while. I also use TonalEnergy Tuner to sing intervals or scales to it and see if I'm in tune.

In something like a year I went from "telling apart major and minor thirds is black magic" to being able to sing the major scale right like 60% of the time and I have an 80% success rate for all intervals up to a fifth. It did improve my piano improvisational skills by a lot.

Absolutely, and if I had an iPhone at the time I probably wouldn't have bought it.

I only started bothering with discrete amps when I picked up headphones with a 600 ohm impedance.

I wasn't familiar with Audio Science Review, but I looked them up and enjoyed their review of a *$350 power cord*.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/g...

At least from this one sample they look legit, if anything counter-audiophile, in the sense that it is objectively measuring the lack of improvement.

I'd also call the basic schiit stack (which I also have) counter-audiophile -- it is just a nice, solid piece of kit. (and an immediately obvious improvement over my PC's built in stereo jack, haha).

Lol @that link, $350 for a power cord and it's only 14AWG w/ no UL/CE rating? I'm apparently in the wrong business.

You don't understand. It's oxygen free copper! /s

> > objectively higher quality audiophile equipment

> Objectivity and audiophile in the same sentence always makes me suspicious

While we can't detect all the things that people talk about or rave about...

There's a whole lot of things we can measure pretty well; THD+N, intermodulation, frequency response, jitter & phase noise, etc. If something measures better on those simple measurements, and we're not deliberately looking for some warm distortion, etc-- we can know it's better.

His point is that cheaper equipment performs better on objective tests that Schiits. The "better" may not matter, but the point is that cheaper and better is a more desirable combo than more expensive and worse.

I mean human hearing is well known by now. We have a pretty good understanding what makes up certain sounds. Yet, given the nature of the subject on the fringes of perception people start to develope a lot of fantasy, like a child walking through the dark woods seeing monsters and mysterious creatures everywhere. You can surely measure everything, but you also have to do it.

Where audio stuff gets the hardest (and what makes the most impact) is room acoustics and the conversion from and to sound waves (so: microphones and speakers and their position within said rooms).

The power amplifiers, preamps etc. can then either be adequate or inadequate to drive those speakers or amplify those microphones neutrally. If you want everything else than high fidelity (e.g. the subtle crossover distortion and warm sound of a class AB tube amplifier) this is a different thing, but don't call it high fidelity.

More expensive and worse wins if it enhances your perceived social status. For example, Ferraris are not the best track cars, they're not the worst either, but they are a potent status symbol. In any case there exist much cheaper options which can outperform them.

Got any recommendations? I have some Schiit equipment.

RME ADI-2 was and still is my endgame DAC + headphone amp. Requires a funky adapter to use in dual output balanced mode, but boy does that make the HD800S sing.

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-pro-fs-be.html

ASR Review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...

Schitt's good [1] if that what you already have. Unless you made your purchase a decade ago or feel dissatisfied with the product in some way, Schitt isn't a bad choice. One plus is that Schitt also provides paid upgrades for some of its higher end boxes. My "issue", for lack of better phrasing, is that Schitt is not the most optimal in terms of performance per dollar.

As far as recommendations are concerned, there are many on this webpage:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Rev...

If you have a particular featureset, utility, budget, design, genres of music, etc. I'd be happy to offer what I can, but I'd also recommend that you take the time to review what works for you. After all, it's your ears, not mine.

[1] ;)

I'm very happy with Schitt. I just asked out of curiosity because the person mentioned equipment that is cheaper and better. My Fulla E was $120 so I was curious what is good in that price range! All good though. I'm very happy as-is.

> the person mentioned equipment that is cheaper and better

I'm the same person. But it's good to hear that you're fine with what you have. The review site I linked should statisfy your curiosity.

Started my chain with Schiit in mind!

Ended up going with a Topping E30 instead and Neve RNHP. Price to performance of the E30 is almost too good to be true (if you can deal with the limited outputs).

RNHP, while pretty to look at, did not perform as well for the price (at least it’s appreciated $200 since purchase).

Upgraded to a Topping D90 DAC and A90 Pre-Amp when I added the Audeze LCD-2 to my stack.

The D90 has been nothing short of amazing since I plugged it in. SINAD is like 20 points over transparent - no color to your sound at all. Inputs are extensive and it outputs both XLR and RCA. Can utilize absurd sampling rates like 384k or 768k (even arcane formats like DSD).

The A90 hardware isn’t as pretty as the Neve, but the volume adjustment and proper “audiophile/fool” I/O beats it handily. What sold me was I finally had the ability to “peak” my LCD-2’s. First time in my life to experience 120db with no audible distortion (don’t worry these aren’t extended listening sessions :)). I also plugged in my Genelec 8030C, which can be easily directed output via switch to pre-amp mode.

My RNHP, while striking and built like a tank, probably topped out at 105db. This was even utilizing XLR and balanced cables.

All told I’m very happy with my audio chain and pretty much “end-game” until I can make a living that would justify something like a Benchmark Amp or the LCD-5’s, and some Genny One’s (Revel and KEF if I ever want to be a masochist and deal with a passive chain).

Crude diagram of my audio chain:

[PC]-USB-[D90]-XLR-[A90]: -XLR-[LCD-2] -XLR-[Genelec 7050]-XLR—[Genelec 8030C]

Check out Drop.com there is a fairly large audiophile community + products.

Disclosure: I was an early employee of Drop and I remember our team trying to get Schiit listed, but he didn't want to offer the community a discount. So there are a lot of alternatives to Schiit out of spite.

The newer stuff (magni/modi 3) has fixed the Audio Science Review guy's complaints and he now recommends those models. I went through all this when I was shopping for reasonably (to me) priced gear.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...

> I am recommending the Schiit Modi 3 without reservations.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...

> Both Topping A30 and Schiit Magni 3 are recommended for budget friendly choices in headphone amplifiers. Let your preferences in looks, usability, etc. guide you in your selection.

>The newer stuff (magni/modi 3) has fixed the Audio Science Review guy's complaints and he now recommends those models.

Now, I might be cynical, but this can also happen in a shakedown (bad review, money exchange, oh, good now) scenario - whether with updated version of the product in between or not. It's not like thosr are uncommon.

On the whole the Schiit Audio origin story and growing pains one can read in those threads is very educational to anyone considering running a niche hardware company.

Tons of real world experience on what worked and did not work. Not too much info on running hardware companies out there.

> ...Schiit Audio (its pronounced exactly as you think it is)...

I'm imagining "Downtown" Clay Davis from The Wire. No idea if that's correct or not but it makes me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70eU840lc38

I have a Fulla E from these guys. Love it!

This writing is insufferable. If I removed every errant newline and "bear with me" sentence, the posts would be half as long and twice as interesting.

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