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Comment by josefresco | Hacker News Reader

This is super cool and would be awesome for situations where your guests are familiar with QR codes. But from my experience the process would go something like this:

Visitor: What's your wifi password?

Me: No password needed! We have a cool QR code you can scan that will auto-join you!

Visitor: Oh cool, how do I use a QR code? Do I need an app?

Me: Nope, just point your camera at it.

Visitor: Like .. .take a picture of it? And then what, do I...

Me: No just point your camera at it.

Visitor: Ok let me try it ... oh cool it's prompting me to join your wifi network? what do I do now

Me: Yes Yes, just proceed, that's what it's for.

Visitor: That's soo cool, thanks.

Visitor: What's your wifi password?

Me: ShinyTortoise78

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"ShinyTortoise78, no spaces, capitalization on the first letter of each word. Seventy Eight is the numbers 7 then 8, not spelt out as a word"

"Uhh English is my 3rd language and I don't know how to spell tortus. is there a QR code I can scan?"

The optimal solution is thus:

"What's your wifi password?"

"It's written right there on the fridge"

Is that an O or a 0?

I would never write something so ambiguous.

Return to monke:

    password123

The password is “1234”?! That’s the kind password an idiot would have on their suitcase!

That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage.

Is that a 0 or a Ø?

"oh, I have to get up from my table, carry my laptop over to your fridge and attempt to type in the password without dropping anything?"

(I have a horrible short term memory and struggle with short phrases)

You don’t talk like this when you are invited somewhere? You do ?

I internally think this every time I bring my laptop to a cafe and the barista points at a 'cute' wifi password sign (or bathroom unlock code).

I have solved this (and a surprising number of similar problems) by pulling out the powerful camera I carry everywhere and taking a picture of the text I would otherwise need to remember.

I have an iPhone 13Pro Max and this solution is cumbersome.

When I walk back to my desk, my phone locks (due to time out or intentional habit of keeping it locked). Then I have to tap buttons to unlock phone, launch the photo app, and find the image I just took. Then I have to spend time later to delete the image.

iOS has OCR on images. I can copy and paste the password from the photo, but still not as efficient as no or simple password, since I must still deal with locking.

Perhaps, this is better on android.

a clay tablet perhaps?

Is Face ID so terrible? I'm still on iPhone 8 with fingerprint reader and unlocking is not something I notice, it's absolutely smooth.

I use FaceID and it works well (even with a mask), but you still have to tap to find the Photos app and then the image you just took.

Open camera (swipe from up side, then swipe from right side), click on latest photo in the corner, swipe if necessary. I very rarely open photos app.

that is exactly my point: lots of tapping, when a simple verbal easy to memorize password is requires no extra typing.

If someone wasn't smart enough to realize they could take the piece of paper off the fridge, I'm not sure they'd be able to operate a computer

My solution to this is that "password" is the literal password of my guest WiFi.

Might as well just open it up at that point.

No way. “password” protects me from the neighbor torrenting movies or Googling bomb recipes or whatever, which is the bulk of the threat model for residential Wi-Fi.

The proprietary Apple way is honestly the best but only works inside their system. You just try to join the wifi network and if the wifi owner has you as a contact they will get a popup requesting permission to the wifi and you tap accept and its done.

It’s terrible because it means on apple there’s no obvious way to share Wi-Fi settings like on android. Thanks apple for using Wi-Fi to try to do vendor lock in.

How is that lock-in? It's just a feature. It doesn't in any way lock you out of setting up WiFi the old fashioned way.

Okay so how do I find out the wifi password of a network an iOS device is connected to, using that device? On android it’s easy: go to Wi-Fi settings, hit “share”, show QR code.

That's just a normal security feature, passwords are input only. Just because Android lets you read them doesn't make it an ideal choice or any kind of standard. Besides, I don't want my kids to get the password from their devices and then share with their friends.

And how would that constitute lock-in anyway?

you are not my father!

iOS 16 allows to look up a saved password.

https://images.macrumors.com/t/3REfPfn3TRhO5oOFqVsyqdR9qcI=/...

I wonder why they didn't just add it in at the beginning, I can't imagine the implementation being that difficult

To be pedantic, it doesn't require the owner to give permission. It'll get it from anyone else near enough who has it on their device. My kids give away our primary WiFi to their friends with some annoying regularity, even though I keep telling them to scan the QR code on the wall for the guest network.

Why have a non-'guest' network? Force anything secure over a proper VPN E.G. wireguard.

Hadn't really considered that. A bit inconvenient, I don't know that I'd want to VPN inside my own network just to access my servers.

Surely this is desirable while away from home too?

Not sure I could enforce QoS priority on the wireguard traffic. Easier with a non-guest SSID. Is there a huge performance benefit if there's just one SSID running in my airspace?

Also, for the OP, sounds like it's time to put the kids on the guest network.

> sounds like it's time to put the kids on the guest network

I have considered that, for sure.

You can QoS tag by whitelisted mac addresses if it's just priority to known devices generally. At best your router may be able to slightly shape devices on the network (strategically dropped packets). QoS over the air doesn't really work as there's zero control of any devices tying up RF spectrum, and zero ability to defend against DoS attacks (E.G. neighbor trying to stream 4K over wifi).

Streaming services block VPNs, many sites like Wikipedia impose restrictions (no editing allowed from a VPN), and geoloc based services act oddly (I live in London and my VPN server is in a London data center, but Google thinks we are in Dubai and G.Apps default to Arabic).

It definitely asks for permission, and only prompts mutual contacts to begin with, as far as I know.

It asks the sender for permission, which is not the same as asking the WiFi owner. My kids have their friends as contacts, so it happily shares with them.

My wording was probably a bit wrong but there is no concept in wifi of ownership so by owner I meant the person who set it up but not exclusively them, just that they would have it.

Why would a coffee shop owner have me as a contact?

Just make your WiFi password simpler

I agree with scenario one but also think you went too simplistic on the second scenario. Even with a simple wifi password like you suggested, you still need to specify the uppercase letters and plenty of people might have trouble spelling tortoise correctly on the first try.

Nevermind the fact that my friends group tends to be about 50% passwords of the type you used and the other 50% of them use a randomly generated one from a pw generator or add enough random capitalization of things like family member names to make it awkward. More often than not, I end up handing them my device to type it themselves.

The QR code seems a much simpler solution once people know how to use them. Thanks to things like electronic menus at restaurants due to Covid more folks than you might realize actually do know what to do. If grandma can learn how to use a QR code to access the high school band concert program online (true story), then anyone can.

Teach a man to fish.

It's fourwordsalluppercase, one word, all lower case. Obviously.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/e-mail-addresses-it-woul...

I solve this by having a framed piece of paper on my wall:

    GUEST WIFI
    SSID: AAA Guest
    Password: squirrels2

I have a paper like that. With the QR code right below it. The guest decides which they want to use.

When the password is 63 characters long, the QR code becomes a viable alternative to most.

But you could also just put the password in that same frame and then you don't need to specify it. Just like every small coffee shop does with their guest wifi (assuming they don't have a captive portal)

> Teach a man to fish.

I keep teaching my family members to fish, and they keep asking me for fish.

And a boat. And a little island, with a cabin.

It might be only my bubble (of non-tech-savvy people), but recently I started to use QR code to share my WiFi and there was never such friction you described. I don't do it with a printed out image, but my phone has an option to share the WiFi via QR code. Also, modern phones have a direct button from the WiFi connection screen to directly scan a QR and connect to WiFi... This is a thing... and it's easier to use it as typing `ShinyTortoise78`...

> Also, modern phones have a direct button from the WiFi connection screen to directly scan a QR and connect to WiFi

I recently did this with a few (some more tech-savvy, some less tech-savvy) people and it seemed to blow their mind. I don't know if this is a commonly known feature.

My phone has this feature and now I know about it! :) Never would have noticed the little icon on the wifi settings page without knowing to look for it.

If you’re both using Apple devices it works like this:

Guest: “What’s your wifi network?”

Me: “It’s XXXX”

Guest: selects network

Me: Prompt on my device “Would you like to share your wifi password with Guest” . Selects Yes

Guest: “oh wow I’m connected. Thanks!”

Now that only works if I am present. But it works wonderfully. It should be standardised across platforms.

It does take sharing out of your control, however, at least to an extent.

How is being prompted taking sharing "out of your control"?

You also need to be physically close to each other and mutual contacts.

Okay, now tell me how to prevent Apple from compromising my network security.

Turn off iCloud everything.

vs Whats's your Wifi password?

A: I don't know it's written on the back of the modem.

Aha... apparently you have met ALL of my relatives who have absolutely no understanding that they could login to the device and change the password to something better.

Some of the rental hardware no longer allow users to login as admin. Some of the ones that do the ISP landlords make a lot claims that leases/monthly fees go up if they think to try. There's a growing disparity between modem/router hardware owners and "this lease seemed like the best deal from the cable/phone company" average users.

Now they make you manage the very limited subset of router options (essentially SSID and WPA passphrase) from their web portals. Then they push the updated configs to your router via remote management protocols. How many vulnerabilities do those open?

I have "business class" service from a provider (Canada - Rogers), which came with a "Clearnet" router/wifi combo that has, LTE failover. (Cradlepoint)

And - of course it was locked for admin - well - not for long, the technican who installed it gave me the password after we chatted for awhile. Admitedly, I cannot change the PW he gave me, and at some point if they remotely update it, it will stop working.

That might have been the case a few years ago (at least here in BC, Canada) but these days virtually every sit-down restaurant I go to has their menu available - often exclusively - via QR code.

Thank COVID for teaching more people how to use the dang camera on their phones as a barcode scanner (by way of many restaurants moving to QR menus)

Vistor: Ok, I took a picture of it. Now what? Do I send it to you?

Me: Is it doing anything? What did you do?

Vistor: No. I pointed my phone at it like you said. Then I took a picture.

Me: What app are you using?

Visitor: The photo app I always use.

Me: Can you be more specific?

Visitor (showing where the icon is): That one. I always use it.

Me: That one sucks. Do you have any others?

Visitor: I don't know. There's photos in the Facebook app. Should I try that?

Me (grabs a piece of paper from the fridge, exasperated): Here. This is my wifi info. Use the 5ghz one. If that doesn't work, try the other one.

Vistor: Oh, ok, whatever. Thanks.

I'm in an Airbnb and the access point has the same name for 5ghz and 2.4ghz. Apple doesn't let you manually switch. The only way I've found to switch when one is not working is to toggle the wifi on/off fifty times.

I think there must be some sort of crazy interference going on because I can literally be sitting right next to the router and 5ghz has about 5k of bandwidth available.

In my experience, Apple devices tend to connect to whichever seems stronger at the time of connection, and then only ever change to a different AP when the connection gets extremely weak. Or randomly, just to mess with you.

That's unfortunate. I've tried to reset the router but it still loads the old settings. Next time I go back to the US I'm going to bring back mesh routers.

Has this really happened to you? I got the WiFi QR printed and hanged in my living room, and to this day nobody has ever had a problem. QR might seem too techie, but they are so pervasive that everyone knows how to use them.

> but they are so pervasive that everyone knows how to use them.

Nope. I know people first-hand who don't. Hell, even I don't know how the average person does it. My own phone's camera app doesn't detect them so I had to find a random 3rd party app and trust that it's not stealing the info. In fact I'm not sure I've ever used the stock camera app on any phone to scan a QR code before. For some folks it might be "press Camera and scan", but for others it's way harder than it looks.

Wow, people like to shit on Apple, but this is yet another example of something that just works.

Android phones might all do this now for all I know, I have no idea. My phone is a few years old so hard to say.

I've a QR app because I need advanced options, but just tested that my stock camera app when presented a barcode or a QR read them without any action. It offers to open the link in the browser, to connect to the wifi or to search the numbers of the barcode.

My guests doesn't ask for the WiFi pass, they see the QR hanging and ask "what is this QR for?", "It connects to my WiFi", and they immediately try it (succesfully) out of curiosity, "It's cool, how is it done?". The don't understand the magic behind, but don't need a guide to use it.

Visitor: what's your wifi password?

Me: it's the entire alphabet in order.

Visitor: I don't want to type 20+ obnoxious letters.

Me: can I interest you in a QR code?

It's remarkable how something as trivial as typing 26 characters is onerous on our glassy slabs, but image processing to resolve a high-resolution two-dimensional barcode in a video stream is easy.

Computers are fast and they usually don't complain when you make them do work.

On the contrary, I've known some that get quite loud.

I think there’s no need to optimize every single human interaction like we do with the machines :)

I don’t mind the little back and forth sometimes. Consequently, in this scenario the knowledge of how to use a QR code will come in handy for your guest.

I just use the automagical p20 Apple WiFi password sharing.

If you run an AirBNB you might not be there when the guest arrives.

before covid, that's completely true. since covid it's flipped the opposite - when every restaurant has a QR code instead of a printed menu, people get used to it quickly.

in the last few months, i've had visitors at events ask why we didn't have a QR code posted because they'd prefer that to typing in the name of our website.

my recommendation would be to also just print out the password below the QR code and people can select the one they recognize.

If you're not tech savvy enough to scan a QR code, do you really NEED to be on my home wifi?

So support both? Just post a paper on the wall with the name/password spelled out, and also a QR code. If people know how to scan then it's fast, if not then they can read+type the old way.

You can always put the password on the same piece of paper as the QR code. So if they don't know how to scan the code, they can type it in, no need for your to spell it either.

It’s not like you’re going to have to answer these questions forever, people won’t be surprised the camera can scan QR codes the fifteenth time they use it.

People in Asia took to QR codes like ducks to water a long time ago, and Covid accelerated adoption in Europe and North America.

Had very similar experiences. Setup QR readers for a convention where users could scan for our website and a text bot... Absolute disaster, on both accounts.

In the suburban/rural southeast US I see lots of QR codes and lots of old people using them. Especially since 2020

I take it your visitors either cook all of their own food at home, or with their inability to use what passes for a restaurant menu these days, they have starved to death by now.

Around here by the time restaurants opened again the menus were back out in force.

In fact, most of the QR codes even at the places that had hem are gone now.

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