ISO name change for Türkiye
iso.org
iso.org
"Turkey; Republic of Turkey changed to Turkey; Republic of Türkiye"
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/country-names/cou...
https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/the-permanent-committee...
There is the precedent of Burma/Myanmar, "Country name remains Burma reflecting common British English usage". Similarly for Cabo Verde, "Cape Verde had circulated a request for this form to be used, though UK has retained the common English usage for the country name".
However, it did recently change Swaziland to Eswatini and I know which one I'd vote for as being common usage.
The ISO codes are not always adopted verbatim. e.g. The UK gov list does not include Taiwan. ISO plays both sides, giving it a country code but calling it a province of China. On the other hand the UK does include Kosovo which is not an ISO country but is recognised as one by approx 50% of nations including the UK.
Other countries have similar national naming committees to the UK's PCGN, you can see a list here https://unstats.un.org/unsd/ungegn/nna/nna-committees/
Myanmar has the much bigger problem that it has no adjectival form, requiring even the most politically correct people to use "Burmese".
(Technically, that's not true - the official adjectival form, according to Myanmar, should be "Myanma". Good luck getting English speakers to understand that.)
How is that any harder than Afghanistan => Afghan.
First, many English-speakers are familiar with -stan, which is used in seven different country names, plus some region names.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-stan
For most of these, you can get an ethnonym or demonym by removing -stan or -istan.
Second, the -ar in particular has a lot of trouble with non-rhotic English accents, where "Myanmar" might already be pronounced the same as "Myanma"!
It's supposed to be. Both names, "Burma" and "Myanmar", are formed under the assumption that your English pronunciation is non-rhotic.
The same is true of the common Korean surname "Park", which does not contain any R-like sound. British spellings of foreign words really cause tremendous damage to the pronunciations used by rhotic speakers.
It's such a strange thing to use an 'r' to modify the sound of the preceding vowel, and it's not even as if it's 100% consistent, because all English is a mess.
This expectation also leads to comical situations like the typical British pronunciation of "pasta". I guess the Italians should have spelled it parsta.
That is exactly the opposite of what TillE wrote. If that were how the British already pronounced the word, there would be no need to change the spelling.
> Got a source for your "typical British pronunciation" of "pasta" being non-Italian?
This is just infantile. You can verify the pronunciation yourself in any number of ways.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pasta (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæs.tə/)
https://youglish.com/pronounce/pasta/english/uk , if you want audio samples.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pasta#Pronunciation (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæstə/)
Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing".
It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right.
They really are compelled to insert an R there. That is one of the phonological rules of their variety of English; it's how you avoid running one vowel into another vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R
Complaining about this is the equivalent of complaining about how Americans "feel" compelled to insert a vowel into the name Gbagbo, pronouncing it guh-bagbo. They don't just feel compelled; that is a genuine requirement of their language.
It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection
while thaumasiotes is referring to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics
There are examples in the hypercorrection article about people adding an /h-/ in a very similar situation, so what you describe clearly can happen. But are you sure that the R example falls into that category?
It seems to be a distinction about how conscious the change is, or at what layer of language it happens. Isn't that an empirical question that could be tested?
Class markers in speech are always a moving target, a sort of low-grade arms race: low stakes for the upper class, high stakes for lower.
So, pronouncing it "drawRing" is a lower-class marker, similar in a way to "aks" for "ask" in American English.
As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding.
[*] "er" is pronounced "uh" or "eh", rhotically.
I'm sorry but pretty much everyone who grew up with English as a second language would like to disagree.
Hearing "drawRing" to this day throws me off -- I have to repeat the noise to myself internally to make sure I understood it right.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but their opinion doesn't count.
Foreign speakers have no say in what's legitimate and may be confused by absolutely anything.
> It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".
I think you're misunderstanding here. There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. It's not taught in school. It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher when they say "(Mel and) me accused her".
> There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works.
That is true.
> It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher
That is also true. But your own example is telling you that there is also no situation where "Mel and I accused her" works. Sentences in that form do not naturally occur in English; they must be taught in school. The correct form would be "Me and Mel accused her".
Intrusive R isn't like that. It is a feature of the language, not something dictated to speakers by a formal education system.
Compare the article on intrusive R I linked before:
> This is now common enough in parts of England that, by 1997, the linguist John C. Wells considered it objectively part of Received Pronunciation, though he noted that it was still stigmatized as an incorrect pronunciation, as it is or was in some other standardized non-rhotic accents. Wells writes that at least in RP, "linking /r/ and intrusive /r/ are distinct only historically and orthographically".[17]
Where footnote 17 cites a paper from 1982.
No it isn't. You'd never say "Me accused her". If you don't like the inversion its perfectly fine to say "I and Mel accused her", but using "me" for the subject is never correct.
Why do you believe this?
If you believe otherwise, you are tragically misinformed and miseducated.
Using "me" in subject context is, besides being wrong, a social low-class marker. It does not come naturally to English speakers; it only ever occurs through exposure to the misuse.
There are well-known phenomena like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attraction_(grammar)
which can become conventionalized and eventually part of native speakers' intuitions even though they can be contrary to a more logically consistent or simpler understanding of agreement.
This is not even a theoretical possibility. There are no low-class markers that don't come naturally, because no one is going to make an effort to present themselves as low-class.
You are getting really disingenuous, now. Who are you performing for?
- "Me fail English." is considered to be a well formed construction, or that...
- ...adding a conjunction is important in determining whether "I" or "Me" is should be used.
It's just not the case that either of those are true in standard English.
While, in theory, you can have any rule you want within some sub-dialect, that would be a very strange rule indeed.
Am British, literally no one I know personally puts an extra R in when pronouncing drawing. I have heard it said that way before but you certainly couldn’t say that “most” Brits do it.
I am amused that your sibling comment insists "drawRing" is correct British pronunciation.
Source: expat living in Britain
What do you call a one-eyed dinosaur? A dyathinkhesawus. Without the intrusive 'r' this joke would not work.
> In Burmese, the pronunciation depends on the register used and is either Bama (pronounced [bəmà]) or Myamah (pronounced [mjəmà]).
That is, there is originally no R sound in either word in Burmese, as thaumasiotes clarified.
-ese, -ian, -an and -n all come from Latin via routes of varying directness, which is why they feel somewhat "neutral" in English (e.g. Congolese and Japanese both seem cromulent and not intrinsically African or Asian).
I have faced questions from Chinese people about why only Asians receive an -ese suffix in English.
I hazard that words like Cantonese, etc., came either via the same route, or by back-formation to match the existing wider term "Chinese".
Interestingly, "Japanner" used to be another word for a Japanese person.
Austriai?
Norwayi?
But it has not been my experience at all that Czechia was the “usual” word, at least among English speakers in Europe. Nor do I personally find it any less unwieldy than “Czech Republic” but that’s my bias.
Assuming you also speak from experience, is there any easy way to verify this?
I don’t mean the official name, I mean what people actually say in English when referring to the country a Czech comes from.
Sure, fine, whatever. Everyone deserves to be called by their preferred name. I find it weird though, because every country has a respectful exonym, so a direct translation doesn't seem wrong, and mixing languages seems even weirder.
I don't know why personal names don't typically get translated, but country names do, so this is not a hill worth dying on. It's just odd to me, especially since they are sticking with the colonial name instead of changing to some indigenous name.
I know of Indian colleagues who go by an English-sounding name that is at least somewhat close to their actual name. Others have anglicized a spelling that is phonetically close.
The main difference is that you can ask them what they prefer as they’re right there.
It’s harder to ask an entire country.
E.g. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_II_del_Reino_Unido
It was a little surprising since I’ve only ever seen the Spanish kings referred to as Juan Carlos and Felipe in English-language media, never by translations.
My own nationality (and perhaps yours, judging by your username?) comes to mind, Dutch, which doesn’t even vaguely resemble the way we refer to ourselves (“Nederlands”), but is close to a very old naming of a region in our country (“Diets”, ca. 1200 - 1550), how we call Germans (“Duits”), who call themselves different as well (“Deutsch”), where the word “German” probably stems from Germanic, which refers to a historical group of people in Central and Scandinavian Europe, comparable to “Latin”.
We also translate Paris to Parijs, and Lille has an official translation to Rijsel but nobody uses that.
Sheesh if this were a codebase it would raise some serious questions about variable naming standards.
Pretty sure we had several posts on HM related to the weirdness of translations for names.
But there are cities like Denver. Luckier than others, in that respect ;)
It's a question of "how often do we need to mention this name"; only commonly mentioned get a translation or familiar-alphabet-munging.
Other countries needing to talk about provinces is more rare.
like if people really gonna apply this standard they better do it consistently.
If you're attempting to call to somebody using a translated name, such a person might not recognize and respond to the name, unless they've had considerable time to adjust to it.
On the other hand, one is typically not walking around shouting a country's name to get its attention.
This is not a hard and fast rule, and the translation of personal names has a complex and somewhat sordid history, but there's your short answer.
On the other hand, the variance from countries to cities, provinces, etc... well... I have nothing to offer on that mystery.
Imagine if Bavarians insisted that everybody refer to their capital as "München".
Some people do translate their personal names. In china it's common for people to pick "english names" for interactions with foreigners in part because foreigners have huge problems pronouncing native names.
It's going to be fun to watch developers wrap their heads around that one...
Blindly calling .ToUpper() on anything is a typical anglo-centric mistake. Just don't use .ToUpper(), shoutcase is ugly anyways ;)
See also: one of the many "100 fallacies programmers assume about natural written language" documents or such.
As long as there is no unicode SS character, we are into the "what color are your bits" problem or tolower needs to be language and word aware.
In .NET the uppercase and lowercase functions are culture aware (with defaults to system settings, which breaks more software than you might think) but not word aware AFAIK.
It turns out there is such a unicode character -- ẞ/ß -- although based on other comments here it looks like it was added fairly recently.
Upper/Lower case stuff just seems to be at an annoying intersection where it has cultural and also programming significance. Or at least, people will use toUpper when they really want some case-insensitive sortable version of the string.
(based on some googling, probably localeCompare is the way to go in javascript at least).
I believe the actual name is Eszett.
By this measure, the English name of “W” would be wrong because it’s not actually a “double-U” but a “double-V”. But at the time of the letter’s formation, U and V were not yet separate letters.
Yes, one that you might make if you were for example, trying to make English text uppercase. Which is why it would be daft for anyone to suggest that their country has two different English spellings depending on the character case.
Speaking of surviving Fraktur ligatures, I’m sorry that a couple of others like tz didn’t make it to Roman. It makes poor ß appear lonely.
[0]: https://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/9303_p3_cons_en....
Bringing the thread back to the topic of this comment section: the ICAO document also calls the digits 0123456789 “Arabic” even though their shapes are closer to the original Hindi (Devanagari) forms than to actual Arabic digits — another “Hindi/Turkey” situation
† Although it’s Germany and of course there exists an obscure Verwaltungsvorschrift according to which you can write the non-machine readable field of the Personalausweis/Pass in lowercase, exactly for this use case. I didn’t know that last time but I fully intend to make some poor civil servants life a slight hell the next time I have to renew.
JavaScript actually seems to be the smart one here - its default .toUpperCase() uses the "locale-insensitive case mappings in the Unicode Character Database".
Thanks for the correction!
I don't think most Java and C# software is desktop apps? Surely in most cases it's the locale selected for the server or VM, which should be consistent?
(I'm not saying it's good coding practice, mind you, but it probably ends up accidentally working in a lot of cases.)
> I'm not saying it's good coding practice, mind you, but it probably ends up accidentally working in most cases
Fully agree. It's still bad practice and I high-five every linter that automatically flags it.
"Türkiye".ToUpperInvariant()
"Türkiye".ToUpper()
"Türkiye".ToUpper([System.Globalization.CultureInfo]::GetCultureInfo("tr-TR"))
> "Türkiye".capitalize()
UniquenessError("Ankara is already the capital")Also, "Nauru".capitalize() should succeed as it has no official capital.
(tongue firmly in cheek ;)
"Switzerland".capitalize()
"HELVETICA"> Due to its linguistic diversity, Switzerland is known by a variety of native names: Schweiz [ˈʃvaɪts] (German);[note 5] Suisse [sɥis(ə)] (French); Svizzera [ˈzvittsera] (Italian); and Svizra [ˈʒviːtsrɐ, ˈʒviːtsʁɐ] (Romansh).[note 6] On coins and stamps, the Latin name, Confoederatio Helvetica – frequently shortened to "Helvetia" – is used instead of the four national languages.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland
That's also why the ccTLD of Switzerland is .ch.
What you're seeing may be an 'artifact' of that.
"Switzerland".capitalize()
𝔈ℑ𝔇𝔊𝔈𝔑𝔒𝔖𝔖𝔈𝔑𝔖ℭℌ𝔄𝔉𝔗
One of those two is Switzerland, which has the official Latin name "Confoederatio Helvetica", leading zinekeller joke that the capital form was "HELVETICA". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Switzerland .
I pretended my implementation of that non-extent programming language generated "Eidgenossenschaft", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidgenossenschaft . As that's a German word, I decided to use a blackletter typeface, specifically, the Fraktur in Unicode which is meant to encode mathematical alphanumeric symbols, then imply that my locale the reason I got a German word.
Edit: I now understand this to be a joke. But.., given the craziness that I've seen in the past, this doesn't seem out of the realm of plausibility!
And, in theory, two countries could share the same capital (as a condominium which is equal joint territory of both, or some kind of third territory belonging to neither), although I'm not aware that's ever actually happened. But, at the subnational level, it has happened in India – Chandigarh is the joint capital of two Indian states (Punjab and Chandigarh), each of which has it as its capital despite it being in neither of them, as well as being a union territory (and hence also capital of itself).
> "Türkiye".capitalize()
PrivacyError("That's nobody's business but the Turks'") > 'Türkiye'.toLocaleUpperCase('TR')
'TÜRKİYE'
"Türkiye".toLocaleUpperCase("tr-TR")
'TÜRKİYE' >>> "Türkiye".upper()
'TÜRKIYE'
>>> import locale
>>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "tr_TR.UTF-8")
'tr_TR.UTF-8'
>>> "Türkiye".upper()
'TÜRKIYE' # Expect "TÜRKİYE"
>>> locale.resetlocale() import locale
from contextlib import contextmanager
@contextmanager
def use_locale(*args, **kwargs):
locale.setlocale(*args, **kwargs)
yield
locale.resetlocale()
Even despite the:
> Absolutely.
My absolute least favorite response to this is:
> It's not that hard to write your own though:
I strongly disagree with that sentiment as often these simple things have subtle gotchas, and/or subtle differences in possible net effects creating much bigger problems than their diminutive implementations would suggest.
Or use a programming language that doesn't rely on libc for locales.
> There is no way to perform case conversions and character classifications according to the locale. For (Unicode) text strings these are done according to the character value only, while for byte strings, the conversions and classifications are done according to the ASCII value of the byte, and bytes whose high bit is set (i.e., non-ASCII bytes) are never converted or considered part of a character class such as letter or whitespace.
% env - LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 PATH="$PATH" python3
Python 3.8.12 (default, Nov 13 2021, 10:49:08)
[Clang 11.0.3 (clang-1103.0.32.62)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from icu import UnicodeString, Locale
>>> s = b'the Republic of T\xc3\xbcrkiye'
>>> s = s.decode()
>>> s
'the Republic of Türkiye'
>>> lc = Locale("TR")
>>> s = UnicodeString(s)
>>> s
<UnicodeString: 'the Republic of Türkiye'>
>>> s = s.toUpper(lc)
>>> s
<UnicodeString: 'THE REPUBLİC OF TÜRKİYE'>
>>> s = str(s)
>>> s
'THE REPUBLİC OF TÜRKİYE'
>>> s.encode()
b'THE REPUBL\xc4\xb0C OF T\xc3\x9cRK\xc4\xb0YE'
>>> s = UnicodeString(s)
>>> lc = Locale("CN")
>>> s = s.toLower(lc)
>>> s
<UnicodeString: 'the republi̇c of türki̇ye'>
>>> s = '壹,貳,參,肆,伍,陸,柒,捌,玖,拾,佰,仟,萬'
>>> s.encode()
b'\xe5\xa3\xb9,\xe8\xb2\xb3,\xe5\x8f\x83,\xe8\x82\x86,\xe4\xbc\x8d,\xe9\x99\xb8,\xe6\x9f\x92,\xe6\x8d\x8c,\xe7\x8e\x96,\xe6\x8b\xbe,\xe4\xbd\xb0,\xe4\xbb\x9f,\xe8\x90\xac'
>>> s = UnicodeString(s)
>>> s
<UnicodeString: '壹,貳,參,肆,伍,陸,柒,捌,玖,拾,佰,仟,萬'>
>>> s = s.toLower(lc)
>>> s
<UnicodeString: '壹,貳,參,肆,伍,陸,柒,捌,玖,拾,佰,仟,萬'>
edit: Oh neat there's a hansfin keyword that I had not known about.
https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/locale/#keywords
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6224177/how-to-convert-e...
No, it will not. Nobody gives a damn. Nobody will implement it.
I am still trying to get people to correctly denote beginning and end of a day (much more useful, practical). Everybody I work with seems to be bent on using 23:59:59 as the end of the day rather than start of next day. Explaining that there is no 1s delay between end of one day and start of the next isn't helping either.
When you say "Thursday" you mean entire 24h period. It is not a point in time, it is a label for a span of time.
But when you say "1 pm" you don't mean an entire hour, you mean a point in time that is more or less precisely 1pm.
It seems people extend the first model to a lot of cases where it is not correct. And so for many people their mental model of 23:59:59 is a label for a span of time that is one second in length.
If your model is that a day consists of 86400 "seconds", each second being a span of time of length of one second with a label like 12:37:28, then 23:59:59 is the last second of the day and 00:00:00 is the first second of the next day.
If there's one person in the queue to the checkout, then span-wise, that person is the start of the queue and the end of the queue. But if the start and end are the same, what is the length of the queue?
(If you still insist it's one, you'll not be able to answer the question where the start and end of an empty queue is. There is no first or last person!)
Just to spell it out, some days have 25 hours or 23 hours due to daylight savings, or 24 hours and 1 second because of leap seconds, etc.
```TSQL select cast('2022-07-12 24:00:00' as datetime) ``` >>> The conversion of a varchar data type to a datetime data type resulted in an out-of-range value.
```python from datetime import datetime d: datetime = datetime(2022, 7, 12, 24, 0, 0) ``` >>> ValueError: hour must be in 0..23
As someone whose last name contains a character from the same Unicode subset (ć), it's often a white square or just flat-out removed from my last name completely.
A realistic scenario is an Australian writing French poetry while on holidays in Turkey. Now you have an OS GUI with en-GB as the language, licensing and date/number formatting as per the AU region, French spelling dictionary, a US-101 keyboard layout, Turkey as the location, and GMT+3 as the time zone.
It's a rare piece of software that can handle this. Few vendors have staff that have even heard of such exotic places.
There are still people... many people... that deny the existence of places outside of the United States of America. Such filthy, heathen locations are surely a thing of myth, or legend!
Places where dates are formatted with the days before the month, followed by the year in some sort of weird, unnatural order.
Nations that have fallen into the trap of some sort of mass hallucination, or shared dream of common measurement units. Some sort of... metric, for space, time, and matter. Maybe they've been watching too much Star Trek!
Multicultural countries where strange unions of races are commonplace, and couples may want to watch Netflix in one language, but have subtitles in a different language. Neither of which are English for the hearing-impaired! Surely, nobody but the deaf are unable to comprehend the universal English language! Not to mention that such taboo couplings are, thankfully, still banned on this stream of holy virtue and shall not be permitted by the data scientists that have declared: "Your union is a statistically negligible!"
Two fun anecdotes my mother has recounted when we were all in Denver for ~5 months in Denver 1996:
1. Asked where we were from on one occasion (after hearing an Australian accent): “Australia.” Response: “Oh, did you come by bus?” Now it is possible that there was a misunderstanding there, but mum doesn’t think so.
2. Of those that didn’t already know, only one person successfully identified where we were from, and that person was deaf. (It’s fascinating to try something like this on video without audio where there’s nothing obvious static to identify nationality: I find I can identify both Australian and American correctly at a rate considerably better than random, without ever having made a study of it.)
Yes, I could begin typing "Unite.." but we all know that ends up on United Arab Emirates, and then when I continue on to "...d Sta..." and it doesn't work, only to find out this country picker uses "USA" or something similar so it breaks the autocomplete muscle memory.
Clearly, if we're the center of the known universe, we could use our power to make it a little easier to enter my billing and shipping information.
Some of use have moved beyond “falsehoods programmers believe about X” to “falsehoods the people in charge believe about X.”
23:59:59.500 is after 23:59:59 when interpreted as an instant, but it is part of 23:59:59 as a duration.
PS. It's much easier to type umlauts on Mac. Just hold 'u' to see the variants.
On a Mac now the alphabetic and digit keys do not autorepeat when held but instead pop up little menus of variants. Shifted alphabetic keys get different variants appropriate to their letter. Sadly for TÜRKİYE the single dot capital "i" is not one of them.
At least for my settings, none of the digits get options, nor do they autorepeat.
A completely useful overloading of "long press" of a keyboard key, but completely undiscoverable unless you make long strings of "vvvvvvvvv" as a pointer or some such, then you get a disappointment instead of what you wanted, but you will be enlightened.
<img src="/img/turkiye.gif" alt="Turkey" />
It was because of the way they write/parse integer using dots as separators. (Yes, the real problem was me having forgot to force server and client to use the same locale settings :) )
An old article talking of it : https://blog.codinghorror.com/whats-wrong-with-turkey/
Interestingly, `"türki̇ye".title()` does _not_ work correctly, returning `"Türki̇Ye"`, presumably because the "title-case" algorithm incorrectly detects \xcc\x87 as punctuation. Not sure if this has been fixed in 3.10 or 3.11.
Python 3.9.13 (main, May 24 2022, 21:13:51)
[Clang 13.1.6 (clang-1316.0.21.2)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> s = 'TÜRKİYE'
>>> s.lower()
'türki̇ye'
>>> s.lower().upper()
'TÜRKİYE'
>>> s.lower().title()
'Türki̇Ye'
>>> s.lower().encode()
b't\xc3\xbcrki\xcc\x87ye
> The algorithm uses a simple language-independent definition of a word as groups of consecutive letters. The definition works in many contexts but it means that apostrophes in contractions and possessives form word boundaries, which may not be the desired result ... The string.capwords() function does not have this problem, as it splits words on spaces only.
[0]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#str.title
[1]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html#string.capword...
Python 3.8.10 (default, Mar 15 2022, 12:22:08)
[GCC 9.4.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> short_name_lower = "Türkiye"
>>> short_name = "TÜRKİYE"
>>> short_name.encode() ## The Ü and İ are UTF-8 chars
b'T\xc3\x9cRK\xc4\xb0YE'
>>> short_name_lower.encode() ## Note only the ü is special, i is just ASCII
b'T\xc3\xbcrkiye'
>>> short_name.lower()
'türki̇ye'
>>> short_name_lower.lower()
'türkiye'
>>> short_name.lower() == short_name_lower.lower() ## Looks the same, but it isn't
False
>>> short_name.lower().encode() ## The i has extra \xcc\x87 here
b't\xc3\xbcrki\xcc\x87ye'
>>> short_name_lower.lower().encode() ## The i doesn't have the extra here
b't\xc3\xbcrkiye'
>>> short_name_lower.upper().encode() ## So this is wrong too, since its just an ASCII i to start
b'T\xc3\x9cRKIYE'
> In Turkish, the character “i” becomes “İ” when capitalized, while the “ı” (a Turkish-specific character) becomes “I” (which looks just like the Latin upper case “I”).
> The out-of-the-box capitalization method implemented by developers or by localization tools by default is often the standard ‘toUpper()’, which doesn’t follow language-specific rules and will convert the “i” into an “I”. As for the lower case “ı”, it will simply fail to capitalize it at all. This will result in a very strange looking text in the game with uncapitalized characters and wrongly capitalized ones.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32076177
https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/transforms/casem...
https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/latest/sum...
Basically, what's going on here?
This would be a laughable matter, were it not a sign of what’s coming.
Of course in reality people will keep on calling them Turkey in practical every day English. But the UN has a policy of honoring such requests by the country itself - probably to avoid meddling in politics.
Can China ask for it to be called 中国?
This is understandably confused by the fact that it is the Holy See, not Vatican City State, that maintains foreign relations and participates in international organizations like the UN.
This, I assume, is why the official ISO name associated with country code VA was at some point changed from "Vatican City State (Holy See)" to "Holy See (the)"[4].
Interestingly, both entities issue passports[5].
[2] https://www.vaticanstate.va/
[3] https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivi...
[4] https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:VA
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports
I guess China could request to be called 中国 in English communication in the UN and/or ISO (if I understand your question correctly). The main issue is that if you put up to much friction for other language speakers, they're just going to ignore you/the official standards and do whatever they want, so it becomes a bit self-defeating. I expect this to happen to Turkey as well: English speakers will probably mostly keep using "Turkey" rather than "Türkiye" indefinitely, except in cases where ISO/UN standard are really required.
[1] https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-...
"ISO allows free-of-charge use of its country, currency and language codes from ISO 3166, ISO 4217 and ISO 639, respectively."
Doesn't sound like piracy to me.
Now I am not a copyright lawyer but this is how I understand it: this entire database is a copyrighted work owned by ISO. If you pay them CHF 300 you can download the database and then use use it freely. But when you gather that entire dataset (transformed or not) back to a full database format, it is still a derived work - the copyright of which is owned by ISO.
This is of course completely hair splitting as you will not see ISO coming after anyone spreading the database in any format (it would be a PR disaster). But if you asked the opinion of a corporate lawyer, they might say you technically need to pay ISO before you can use a copy of the entire database in your app. And I bet that's why they have the form to pay the CHF 300 if someone somewhere has a compliance department telling them to be 100% sure they are not breaching any copyrights..
Maybe someone who actually knows anything about copyright law can comment..
EDIT: The situation is indeed unclear as I predicted, probably on purpose. See here https://datahub.io/core/country-list#license :
> It should be noted that this material is ultimately sourced from ISO and their rights and licensing policy is somewhat unclear. As this is a short, simple database of facts there is a strong argument that no rights can subsist in this collection. However, ISO state on their site:
>> ISO makes the list of alpha-2 country codes available for internal use and non-commercial purposes free of charge.
> This carries the implication (though not spelled out) that other uses are not permitted and that, therefore, there may be rights preventing further general use and reuse.
Likewise, if ISO says they allow "free-of-charge use" of the database, it implies their permission and allowance is required to use it in the first place. This implies that if you embed the database to your app, it contains proprietary material by ISO. This limits your rights for example re-licensing it, as you can not re-license without consent from ISO, the copyright holder.
Again - this is only a theoretical problem, yet the ambiguity is rather annoying to a pedant.
I don't see how your rights would be limited by including it in your app. You can just say the copyright to the ISO database belongs to ISO, but is free-of-charge, and the copyright to the code written by you belongs to you, which is not free of charge, or any license you wish.
Edit: Because I can't reply - CC0, a public domain - like license was released in 2009, well after the clarification of their "free-of-charge use" license.
In the "clarification" they indeed seem to consider that the database is covered by their copyright, and any free use is subject to their continued benevolence:
> However, ISO and its members do not charge for the use made of the codes contained in these standards, subject to this being consistent with ISO's copyright.
License: https://unicode.org/copyright.html
This is better indeed. It is explicit in what it allows (anything) and under which terms (no warranty, attribution required.)
"Fabrique en Dinde"
Türkiye was, and I presume still in, Turquie in French. So made in Türkiye is Fabriqie en Turquie.
I do tend to check the labels, sometimes there are jokes hidden there.
For example, a computer bag I have from during the Bush Administration has a label with the text:
Ne pas secher a la machiene Ne pas repasser Nous sommes desoles que notre president soit un idiot. Nous n'avons pa vote pour lui.
We are sorry that our president is an idiot. We didn't vote for him.
http://www.dzof.org/2004/06/nous-sommes-desoles-que-notre.ht...
That's because it really isn't. It really should be, but a) they don't really claim to be one (until recently they officially claimed they're the "one and only" China, same as the PRC) and according to polls most people there support that status quo; b) nobody of note recognises them to be.. anything really. As far as most of the world, including the UN, are concerned, Taiwan is the losers of the Chinese Civil war that have some limited exceptions (like performing at Olympics). Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised.
What's a "country"? You are talking about "sovereign state"–whether or not Taiwan counts as one, or could, depends on which theory of statehood one supports (constitutive or declarative)–but something can be a "country" without being a sovereign state. The ISO 3166-1 list is officially of countries and "dependent territories", but many people talk of those "dependent territories" (especially the more major ones) as "countries". And then people commonly speak of the constituent countries of the UK (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) as "countries" – seems particularly common in British English (and more British-influenced English varieties), but one even hears Americans speak of them in that way at times. Fewer people know this, but the Kingdom of the Netherlands is divided into four constituent countries as well (the Netherlands proper – which includes both the European part and the Caribbean islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, Saba; Aruba; Curaçao; and Sint Maarten). Similarly, the Kingdom of Denmark is also divided into three countries – Denmark proper, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland. And one of France's overseas territories, French Polynesia, is officially classified under French law as an "overseas country" of France. Canada officially recognises Quebec, not as a "country", but as a "nation" (a term which is often used interchangeably with "country").
> Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised.
Kosovo is recognised by about 50% of the world's states, including all of the G7 states. They've also been accepted as members of several intergovernmental organisations, including the World Bank and IMF. And yet, unlike Taiwan, ISO still won't give them an official country code - ISO gives the reason that they won't give them a code until the UN Statistical Division gives them a code, and I guess the UN Statistical Division sees it as a political hot potato they don't want to touch.
It's not just a coincidence, the bird was named after Turkey because apparently they were first imported to England via the Middle East and so they were called "Turkey cocks". Other European languages call them literally "India cocks", due to a different import route. So it's a bit silly to change the official name of your country because a bird is named after it.
Hence “dinde” in French.
Haha in Turkey (Türkiye) turkey is hindi and India is Hindistan, which can be translated as Turkeyland.
Considering that the pronunciation of 'Turkiye' with a silent e is almost identical to the standard pronunciation of 'Turkey', I suspect this will be the primary pronunciation in English and will win out over the "Kanye" pronunciation. This would make 'Turkiye' a purely orthographic change and not a linguistic one.
The idea that the "correct" spelling and pronunciation for a loanword is that of the source language is very much a quirk of English.
Most languages try to either change the spelling of a new loanword to match how it is pronounced, or vice versa. English tries to keep both and that's why English spelling is such a mess, because there is French orthography, Germany orthography, Greek orthography, etc, all mixed together and the only way to know how to spell a word is to know its etymology.
Imagine telling the French that the Turkish government gets how to decide how the word "Turquie" is spelled in French, rather than the Académie Française. They would die laughing.
Turkey and Türkiye are not homophonic. The BBC article I linked has a pronunication guide towards the end: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61671913
I would not even know how to pronounce “Türkiye”, even if I were willing to.
Look up England, Germany (and maybe Holy See) here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_vario... At least Slavic names for Germany even have negative undertones (something like 'mute people'). With changing the name you are trashing all that, and it's doubtful that it really changes much in the perception by itself.
For non-French diacritics, it is on a case-by-case basis. Most English speakers would accept ñ and even write it e.g "El Niño event". Nordic ø is questionable but would be accepted in place names. Phở is right out.
FWIW this may be true in the USA but in the UK and other non-NA English-speaking countries I don't think this holds.
What's next? The Germans insisting on Deutschland as the official ISO name (it's still Germany)? The Chinese insisting on using chines characters? I'm not sure why ISO did this. It sounds political to me.
If you need place name translations, geonames is a decent data set: https://www.geonames.org/export/
You can look up the correct translations and transliterations by iso country and language code. It still calls Turkey by its English name, as it should.
This is now its official ISO name, how it shows up in the Geonames database, and how it is commonly referred to in places like news media.
"Czechia" was adopted as the new official short name. The long name is still also correct.
That’s a great resource to keep around, thanks! A convenient source for the unfortunately common “but you must not translate place names” argument.
And then there's this fuzzy "actual English language" question about, which is pretty hard to answer, and verges on philosophical "what even is a language/what is a name?" wankery. I can't see how you give a simple yes/no answer to that.
I'm looking into my crystal ball and seeing the ~0 people who will be able to remember the slightly different and alien-looking-to-English spelling, and the even smaller value of ~0 who will ever be bothered to use the umlaut.
What has minimal effect is some international standards body trying to dictate usage. Today, and likely for a long time to come, if not indefinitely, "Turkey" is less distracting or confusing to practically any English-speaking audience one might choose, than the new thing. The new one's odd-enough looking (again, even just considering the letter order) and the old one enough entrenched that I expect the old form to be the better choice for communication in English for a long time.
The current official name is "Junhuriyah Misr al-Arabiyah" which is Arab Republic of Egypt in English. This is not something special. a lot of countries have something like "republic of" in their names.
Well, that depends. The name for China the administrative region is 中华人民共和国, but I wouldn't really want to call that the name of the country. That's 中国, and if a regime change occurred, the name of the country would still be 中国, even if the name of the government were no longer 中华人民共和国.
Inflation is ~75%. The Sultan wants distractions.
Official value is 78.62% [1]
Unofficial rate is 175.55% [2]
[1] https://www.tcmb.gov.tr/wps/wcm/connect/TR/TCMB+TR/Main+Menu...
The United Nations has a list of official country names in six languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian, Spanish) [3]. Beyond that, if you want official country names in their native languages or X country in Y language, you'll have to compile them yourself.
[1] https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/72482/cbb6318e772a4f22...
[2] https://www.iso.org/iso-3166-country-codes.html (links to the pdf near the bottom)
[3] https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-... and https://unterm.un.org/
[0] https://unstats.un.org/unsd/ungegn/working_groups/wg1.cshtml
[1] https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-turkiy...
How about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany ? (yes, we consider ourselves lucky that noone calls the country by what it's most famous for)
In Kaliningrad, the locals colloquially call their city Koenig (short for Koenigsberg), they're totally fine with it. Although, the context matters, of course.
And as long as the English speaking world still butchers German town names (Hanover, Hamelin, Nuremberg instead of Hannover, Hameln, Nürnberg) I think it is legit to call the country Turkey.
But if we do think it's butchering, why don't we refer to Germans as Deutsche in English, call the country Deutschland instead of Germany?
But no, everybody must be pissing on their little sandbox - Neuchatel has to be Neuburg, although both are perfectly pronounciable in both languages. US has to be États-Unis. Practically every effin' language has this.
I'd say using original names and how they sound shows some proper respect towards given place, country, people, culture and its history. Shows you actually make some effort, and also shows having some class. But I can only wish this was a widespread opinion.
États-Unis is quite respectful as it literally describes how the country wants to be considered: United States. It is only if you don’t find the term meaningful that way you would want someone to uncomprehendingly parrot the sounds.
Because the Germans aren’t throwing a fit about how other countries are addressing them in their languages, while the Turks currently are.
Given how Turkey currently has insane inflation and internal political turmoil with Erdogan’s opposition rising, there’s a line of thought that has war as the only way to maintain power for Erdogan, much like how a coup solidified his power in 2016.
Turkey’s neighbors probably should start feeling like Ukraine before February, or like Poland before September 1939.
Actually, the name is "Deutschland" (if you leave out the political decorations declaring it a federal republic).
One should think, knowing where the word comes from, that the english name would be "Dutchland". But it isn't, instead they call someone else "Dutch". Admittedly a neighbouring country with some shared history and origins waaay back then, but still. Tyskland is great, thanks to everyone using a variation of that.
Then there is "Germany". Way back then, when the romans tried and failed to establish a longterm presence on the other side of the rivers rhine and danube that might have been ok, but that was 2000 years ago. For at least the last 500 years, "deutsch" or some variation thereof was official. Germans are also only part of the historic inhabitants of what forms modern-day Germany, there are also a few Slavic tribes in there. Also, there are many German tribes that didn't settle in what is modern-day Germany, instead they now form the nordic states, the Netherlands, parts of Switzerland and Austria. So mostly wrong, no fish.
Alemania is even more wrong, because that actually only talks about the southwestern german tribes, in current southwest Germany and northeastern Switzerland. "Alemannisch" strictly only describes the traditions of that region in german. Nothing else.
Then there is Niemcy and stuff. I've been told it means something like "mutes" or "the ones you cannot comprehend". I'm not sure if that is supposed to be an insult or a compliment, but really, after you started talking to us you couldn't be arsed to ask what we call ourselves?
Talking about insults: Saksa might be considered a compliment or an insult in Germany, depending on where you are. Historically, saxon tribes settled in the northwest (later England, but that is not relevant here). This corresponds to a part of what currently is the German land Niedersachsen. There are two Länder that are called something with "sachsen", but they are faking it to get a grab at the former glory. Talking about "glory", it is quite the opposite in southern Germany, there nobody likes "Sachsen" and considers them the worst kind of "Preussen". Which are all considered insults there.
There are a few others, getting more and more weird until: Navajo: Béésh Bich’ahii Bikéyah ("Metal Cap-wearer Land"), in reference to Stahlhelm-wearing German soldiers.[1] I can get behind that. But the rest, please stop it, it is "Deutschland". Or I might have to wear my metal cap again ;)
It was a common name for all foreigners, not just Germans. During a certain era, German traders were the most common foreigners in Slavic lands, so the name stuck with Germans.
As the Russian proverb says, "you can call me even 'kettle', just don't put me on the stove".
They call their country France, named after the Germanic tribe of the Franks. Only in Asterix they remember that their country should be called Gaul.
You mean, the Germans who call it “Frankreich”?
There were several Frankish tribes, who occupied over the years regions from Thuringia all the way to Gascony. You might have heard of Clovis, king of the Franks, baptised at Reims and who made Paris the capital of his kingdom, and founded the Frankish Merovingian dynasty that ruled almost all of what is France now for 2 centuries. Gauls had been heavily romanised well before that point anyway.
You should probably read a bit in a subject before trying to be clever.
For another example, the name "Russia" is derived from "Rus", which itself appears to be a derivative of the Norse "Ruslaw" - again, because it was the Norse who came, conquered, and became the ruling elite.
Basically, it happened all the time.
Let me guess: the one of the three Länder that are called something with "sachsen" that you forget is Niedersachsen, even despite spelling it out literally one word before that sentence! Being born in the only saxon capital of the of the country I was born in I've made a habit out of confusing saxons from the east by claiming that I'm one of them, never gets old.
(yeah, and I was close to posting that wiki link myself, so happy that nobody has started referring to the country by what it's most famous for)
That's many centuries out of date. You want Ellas. The aspiration was lost long ago.
(We might also note that the Greek wikipedia page is titled Ellaða, but the first thing it does is list Ellas as an alternate name.)
On the back of this, though, in many countries in the Middle East the Latin names are used for most countries in Europe, including Germany, which is referred to as Alemaan (from proto-Germanic Alemanniz[2]).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians
Fun fact: "Iran" means "the land of the Aryans".
> the name is baked into everything (modern and historical) from Hebrew to Persian to Arabic to Assyrian.
The term is also used in Han China for the Greek kingdom that came to exist near them. There would have been no real awareness of the original region of Ionia, though there was rudimentary awareness of the Roman Empire a bit later.
This suggests that the reason for the name isn't really known, but no one thinks it might refer to the Greeks.
But it's worth noting that in German "Alman" has become the equivalent of "gammon" in the UK, especially among immigrants and in youth culture. I.e. a derogatory slur for a specific type of native-born person (usually men) holding naïvely reactionary views. Not necessarily intentionally racist but always ignorant.
Also, even more weirdness about the channel islands and the "British" overseas territories (which are isles, but not British isles...).
In Afghan Farsi (Dari) the bird is a "feel murgh" which translates as Elephant Chicken.
Try Czech: Cáchy, Trevír, Řezno vs Aachen, Trier, Regensburg.
(Or just look at the Wikipedia talk page archives for the city.)
GR/gr is ISO for Greece, but EU uses EL/el the previous commenter wrote. The latter seems to come from Greek language, although then spelled using the Latin alphabet
How are those cases similar, except for it's not obvious to the average English speaker where some letters came from?
EDIT: Perhaps it would have been nice if ISO 639 and ISO 3166 had been better coordinated so we didn't have cs_CZ, da_DK, sv_SE, ...
But the standard 2-letter code for the Greek language is "el."
Obviously there are many other countries with abbreviations based on English and there's some decision-making related to avoiding conflicts, but it is a little odd. My first guess would be that the ISO country code logic went something like: prefer native names, if they use the Latin alphabet.
But GB is the ISO 3166 code for the UK, including Northern Ireland. The reason is that the ISO committee wanted to avoid generic words like "united" and "kingdom" so they went for the more "unique" GB, in spite of being somewhat politically sensitive, confusing, and inconsistent with some other standards and every-day usage.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_the_British... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Dependencies
LE. There are a few, such as Côte d'Ivoire, Curaçao etc. But those names have been used in practice much more frequently than their English names.
To make things not any easier, the only official language for Åland Islands is Swedish. The Swedish name is just Åland, nothing else. Nobody would call it Ålands öar, well a tourist brochure might call it Ålands örike (empire of islands) but that would sound ridiculous as an official name.
So basically Åland Islands can't be anything but an English name. Maybe not a very clean one because it contains a non-English letter. So Türkiye is not without precedence.
(A little bit forced, but those are all English words I learned as properly having those appropriate diacritics, when I first learned those words back in grade school.)
Ask 95% of laymen to write those words and there will be no diacritics, and the language is defined by its users.
résumé (noun) variants: or resume
Huh.
Tell it to the New Yorker, where orthography like coöperate is required by official policy.
As they would no doubt also be happy to explain, the diacritic there is not correctly referred to as an umlaut, as "umlaut" refers to the difference in pronunciation between e.g. German "u" and German "ü", while the diacritic in coöperate doesn't change the pronunciation of any letter but instead exists to indicate to the reader that the two letter Os are to be pronounced separately rather than interpreted as a digraph (as in "troop").
It is somewhat interesting to note that modern English speakers often feel that a mark for this purpose is needed, even though formally the orthography doesn't call for it - but they are much more likely to write "re-emerge" than to write "reëmerge".
The only recent ISO change I noticed was “the Ukraine” -> “Ukraine” (still heard the old form until a few months ago) and “Belarussia” -> “Belarus”, both 30 years ago.
I'd say if Curaçao is a non-English name, then so is Botswana or Luxembourg and more than "a few" others.
And if Turkey can demand it, why not 日本, Deutschland or الإمارات العربية المتحدة ?
I do wonder why we say Chinese and Korean names in the proper "backwards" order but have historically flipped Japanese names.
I'm going to continue to spell it Turkey. I'm also going to continue write Kiev.
Nothing against Ukraine or Turkey. But I feel zero need to change the way I name things in my native language.
My in-laws gave me a name in their own language, because they don't speak mine and very likely can't even pronounce my actual name.
They didn't mean offence by, I didn't take offence to it, they're using their language and sounds they're comfortable with, everything is fine.
Many are my names in many countries, Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, In the south Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
I've gone through almost 3 decades at this point with people either pronouncing my name wrong even after I've corrected them dozens of times (or they do it on purpose), or calling me an American name. It's tiring and the American one specifically is super offensive
Except their comment literally starts with I don't care.
And you don't have to go to extremes of either bending over backwards for every request a person could have, or ignoring everything. It's very simple, if someone has a name, and you don't call them by that name even though they requested it, then you are being disrespectful. If someone is doing something considered too far outside the boundaries of the norm (changing their name every 5 minutes), then we can start putting limits. Otherwise I think it's very natural for someone to be want to be referred to themselves by the name they told you they prefer
This was about names of places. How I say the names of places in my own language (English) is not for the governments of Ukraine or Turkey to dictate to me.
People are different. If Bob wants to change their name to Steve (or Stephanie) happy to adjust. If someones wants to be referred to by a name I can't pronounce I'll give it my best shot. If they get upset by my best shot - well that's their issue. My name is "Lewis" and very few non-native speakers seem to be able to pronounce it properly. No one has ever apologised over it, or asked me how to say it, and I haven't lost sleep over this fact.
When you come from immigrant families like mine, these things matter more.
But also how is the name of a place any different? If Turkey was a person and asked you to call them Turkiye, would you have the same response? According to you, no. They aren’t asking you to call the US Birlesik Devletleri, they’re asking you to call their own country by what they deem is their proper name
Most English speakers trying to say "Türkiye" will, I suspect, use instead the vowel of "say" or "day."
It can also be used as marker of the health of your opensource locale library.
I suspect the same will happen with Türkiye. For a while people will write it with ü but then eventually it will become Turkiye, without the diaeresis.
That's very anglocentric
Tur-key
Tür-ki-ye
Nearly every language has their own name for Turkey because Türkiye is almost universally awkward regardless of how you write it down. The closest version that seems somewhat prevalent is something along the lines of Turkiya (usually spelled with a "ja"). But few seem to like the "ye". If I wanted to come up with a universal international name, I'd probably go with "Turkya" or "Turkia".
Few languages have a different name for Ankara - almost as easy as it gets.
Isn't that the whole point?
You must be confused. Nobody is saying Turkey should change its name in Turkish. This is about the name in English. And English should be Anglocentric.
"Türkiye" has no meaning in Turkish. Proper "land of Turks" in Turkish would be "Türkyurdu" ("yurt" meaning home/homeland, yes, the same word for those large tents as they were the homes of nomadic Turks in Central Asia).
https://www.rferl.org/a/lithuania-moves-change-official-name...
Because as I can see:
- Fixes sa- and -o are for the area where X dwell⁰. For comapare, itʼs also used to sa-berʒn-eti «Greece»¹ sa-prang-eti «France»².
- Suffix -eli is for the person is from X³. Also used for other people. Suffix -v- is debatable, maybe itʼs for places.
So, I guess, in kinda Latin way itʼs Kart(v)ia.
---
⁰ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Georgia#Endonym
¹ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/საბერძნეთი#Georgian
> List source: Türk Standardlari Enstitüsü (TSE), 1995-08-01; Administrative Map of __Turkey__ 2000;
So all code lists, including country codes or EU membership, needs to have a validity date range per entry. Fun!
Interesting to note that this name change has to do with the "big vision" the current Turkish government has about the country, although I've read that this change is because they didn't like to be associated with the bird/animal Turkey :-)
But maybe grayscale patrons remained and lingered. If someone was "just" a prime minister, not particularly zealous, but still in the Soviet service, are they ok or not? There are different waves of "decommunisation" going throughout time.
Thing is, each time renaming a street is a lot of havoc. Official records, business registration addresses, business cards, logos, subscriptions, everything needs to change.
For this reason such changes end up stuck in limbo and are often eventually abandoned or undone.
I wonder if Türkiye will encounter similar issues.
Just as you would write "I went to the United States" not "I went to The United States".
(Of course, lower case here means that you should use lower or upper case according to its position in the sentence; it doesn't mean forcibly overridden to lower case like e.e.cummings.)
> The Chicago Manual of Style, which prescribes favoring non-standard capitalization of names in accordance with the bearer's strongly stated preference, notes "E. E. Cummings can be safely capitalized; it was one of his publishers, not he himself, who lowercased his name."