Talking about layoffs
angelariggs.github.io
angelariggs.github.io
And to be fair it was largely my fault for not being able to cope, but the brutality of the process was something that was difficult for me to understand at the time. I'm autistic and I tend to be very naive about human relationships. I was working at this place for about 5 years and thought the people I worked with were my friends, even my boss. When I got let go there was no warning - which I now know is normal. I was just finishing up one Friday afternoon and I got a call from my boss basically telling me not to come back on Monday. I didn't understand... I asked why and got some BS explanation, but I took it seriously and tried to propose alternative solutions confused as to why they weren't listening. I then tried to thank them for the time and say goodbye to the team, but I immediately got cut off from all my communication tools (I was working remote at the time). I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
Obviously now I know this is standard corporate practise, but at the time it was such a surprise that someone would do something so cruel. The experience has completely altered the trust I have for people in my life, probably irreparably, and I'm now constantly on edge about the same thing happening to me again.
I know layoffs are something that have to happen, but these experiences are hard on people and it's crazy to me how unsympathetic employers can be. Why don't they find it harder to turn sometimes life upside down? Why don't they ever seem to care emotionally about what they're doing?
This is good article. Layoffs are something we should probably talk about more as a society.
If you know someone who's been layed off, please make sure they know you're there for them. Just knowing they're not alone and that people are there and care can take so much weight their shoulders.
This doesn't sound like you're an idiot to me, it sounds like modern corporations are fucked up and we've just gotten used to it. Your reaction was pretty normal for someone who hadn't seen it before.
As much as people complain about academia here, I’ve found a home where layoffs don’t have to happen. There’s a permanent home here for people with tenure, guaranteed for life. We vote on who our boss is and they serve a limited term, after which they return to the rank and file. We have a democratic body that has power at the university level and we all get a vote. We vote on practically every decision made in the department.
And even if you don’t have tenure and there is no need for you in the future, you don’t find out about that on Friday with your income, healthcare, relationships, and housing all in question by Monday. How anxiety inducing! We tell you at least a semester in advance instead of escorting you out like a potential arsonist looking to burn the place to the ground. And imagine that, the place is still standing.
Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot wrong with the model at many levels — it’s political and dogmatic, inefficient and bureaucratic. But at least it’s a different model that doesn’t have to be cruel by nature.
Perhaps you lucked out?
As someone who was told at the beginning of the term that he would have no job at the end of it, I'm not sure that foreknowledge was really less anxiety inducing than being told with no warning. It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
But lecturers not so much anymore, that position is changing across academia. I'm a lecturer and I have a renewable 5 year contract where I'm guaranteed a job for that time. That's more job stability than most people have, where they can be canned on any given Friday. As far as voice, lecturers have a vote in the faculty senate, and they have a vote in our department. They even have a vote in choosing our chair! How many workers get a vote in choosing their boss? Lecturers can even become chair or vice chair if they want; our current vice chair was a lecturer. As far as income, it's definitely lower than industry and tenured faculty, but lecturers also have a full 4 months off every year, which is something money can't buy in almost any profession. YMMV at your school, but like I said, the lecturer role is becoming much more attractive at many schools.
> It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
Help me try to understand, what would not be cruel? The tone of this thread seems to be that canning a worker with not enough warning is cruel, but you're saying too much warning is just as cruel? You're given 14 weeks to find a new job, and they'll pay you that entire time. It's pretty much the softest let-go I can think of. What process would you prefer?
At least at the company I don't have to worry about that shit as directly as a worker.
While applying for grants can be stressful if you don’t get one, there’s always another. You get 3 attempts to apply for a CAREER award! The same goes for papers; if it’s rejected just shop it at the next venue and it’ll be accepted eventually if the research is quality. It can be stressful but no single thing is ever do or die. They say “publish ir perish” but academia is filled with 2nd and 3rd chances. I feel like a lot of the stress is self inflicted by type-a personalities who need to be perfect all the time, people who never got a B in their lives.
Even on tenure track, you know you’re guaranteed a job for 6 years as long as you are trying and making some progress. But if you aren’t performing at the level of getting tenure, that’s made clear way ahead of time in the (rare) cases I’ve seen in my department.
There are many other things as well
I’ve not been laid off as part of a mass layoff, but I have been put on an impossible PiP because my new manager was not able to manipulate me despite his best efforts. At the time, I had no clue why I was put on PiP despite solid performance for the 7 months I was in the company (it was a startup and I didn’t have a direct manager for that time). I was in shock for 3 days but I pulled myself together and investigated the matter by speaking diplomatically with my manager. When I realised he could not answer any questions that would make the PiP “less impossible”, I realised that he just wanted me gone. I resigned the next day.
I look back at that layoff with gratitude:
1. I quit a toxic culture that was bringing out the worst in me
2. I re-calibrated my relationship with work. I no longer push myself all the time (at the time, that’s the only way I would relate to work - by going the extra mile every time)
3. I started a meditation practice that I still practice. It changed my entire outlook on work and life. My relationships are better and life is much much less stressful.
Its been 4 years but even today I wonder if its a uniquely American issue having never faced sudden layoffs while working in SE Asia and Europe. I cannot bear this sudden banishment from the herd and having so called friends suddenly stop talking and communicating. Its scarred me and if my wife and daughter were not from the US , I would leave to go work in a different country in a heartbeat.
Your situation sounds absolutely horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I know someone going through something similar at the moment and I'm really worried about him. He moved to the UK for work and recently got layed off unexpectedly. Now he's in a position where he can't afford his rent and he can't afford school tuition for his son. He might end up being forced to take his son out of school and move back home which he obviously doesn't want to do as his family are settled here now. His son doesn't really know anything else and see's the UK as his home.
When I went through what I went through I just had my girlfriend to worry about. If I had a child I don't know how I would have coped to be honest. It's so much harder when people depend on you and you know you're letting them down.
Hope you're doing better now.
Also, your employer is not your friend and definitely not your family.
Companies love to promote the idea that work is a second family. It isn't, it's a cut throat place, where even "work friends/family" would throw you under the bus for a promotion or a raise.
You should always keep a distance from coworkers. They could report you to HR for anything even after hours.
Highly recommend reading "Corporate Confidential"
Every lay-off at the place I worked was always companied with a thank-you speech and a farewell present. They kept working as till they found a new job as well.
How do you know that? OP doesn't say whether or not other people were let go at the same time also. It could be either.
I've had a similar things happen a couple of other times though, once during a mass layoff of the engineering department and the another time at a startup that ran out of money after a failed funding round. Both of those times I was kind of aware of the situation about a month ahead of time and was in a better financial situation so they went much smoother although it was still a very stressful few weeks.
I've never been fired, but I've seen people get fired for fairly trivial reasons. Basically, "we don't really like him and this is a good excuse to get rid of him".
That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.
It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
Well on the flip side I know many people who've received severance pay after being let go, but I don't know anyone who's provided labor to a company for months after leaving.
Someone who replaced you but you don't know reaches out asking for help on their work? Or you're being asked questions you'd need to dig in to? "Sorry, I don't work there anymore".
But answering a text message from someone you had a good relationship with, who is asking a question in good faith, the answer to which you can recall without effort? Wouldn't agree with calling that consulting.
If the latter, how do you justify that as "exploitation"?
It's almost universal that layoffs include (at minimum) a few weeks of full pay. Sometimes months.
It's effectively the same as getting advanced notice, you just aren't expected to do any work after you get notice.
<Insert land of freedom here>
Coinbase offered 3.5 months' severance pay minimum, plus additional severance pay based on employee tenure. If that's a poorly done layoff, what's a well-done one?
Just went through this on a move to Austin from Chicago. I was legitimately scared for my life until the end of my first day at the new job. I have savings, of course, but the pressure is still there.
In many places and industries, you become a risk when you give notice, and are cut off from company resources immediately.
This is most visible in the financial industry, but I've seen it elsewhere too.
It's not really a big deal. Everyone understands it, and you just adjust your communication choices accordingly.
which sounds like to me a carte blanche permission to not do any more work after giving notice if that happens.
Sounds harsh if you're not used to it. But it makes a lot of sense within the industry, and no one's feelings get hurt in practice.
Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time).
Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office.
It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal.
Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it.
>Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
I'm not an employment lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - mass redundancies of 20+ people need to be notified to the government in advance, and failure to do so carries criminal penalties.
P&O seems to have escaped this requirement (at least for now) owing to maritime employment being a special case and jurisdictional issues
https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundan...
For >=100 redundancies, notice to the Secretary of State is required and not giving notice is a criminal offence, by both the company, and also any officer/director/similar who is involved in not giving notice: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194
A level five fine on the standard scale is (since 2015) technically unlimited, so it's not a toothless law. Not sure if anyone has even been prosecuted though.
But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. This ties into the social well-fare system which does not like people entering it for frivolous reasons. Especially people close to retirement age who are effectively unemployable because they are so expensive to get rid off. Which is an interesting dynamic where people close to retirement have to constantly fear layoffs not because they are useless but because they are a liability for their employer.
Mostly companies not following the rules end up engaged in expensive court cases where the judge typically rules against them unless they followed the rules. Court mediated settlements tend to be governed by simple formulas based on years of service, age, etc. So, mostly companies do the right thing and you typically get a fair offer in line with that as they prefer for things not to escalate that way.
I've been through this process once when Nokia started laying off masses of people. I got caught up in one of those waves and they gave me a generous deal and even some startup funding.
Usually, they can fire you and then make you work the notice period, which really sucks. I was lucky and they gave me gardening leave instead. So, I literally dropped everything and never did a minute of work for them again. Out of the building five minutes after they gave me my notice. They did not kick me out but just told me that I did not have to do anything anymore. Going cold turkey like that is not fun. In the period after that I bootstrapped my first startup and managed to get my former employer to fund it. Great experience overall.
But still, getting layed off was a shock. I had to do the walk of shame to the unemployment agency. That really sucked and they treat you like you are useless scum. You are just a number in the system. I literally went from being a principal engineer that just got a raise because to a great performance review to being out on the street dealing with crap like that. The good news was that it wasn't personal. They needed to cut some percentage and my team got squeezed in the middle. Corporate politics basically.
Nope, in Austria employers can fire most people without any reason. Restrictions may apply to vulnerable people like close to retiring age and mass layoffs, but firing one Average Joe who isn't considered vulnerable has no rules or restrictions.
So I think the UK has better job security than some EU countries.
This stuff is very country dependent and it seems that many countries in western Europe require a bunch of time before escorting you off the premises.
If you count tech companies in the German sense, like BOSCH, Siemens, VW, etc. then yes, most are IG Metall.
In Germany if you are unemployed and the unemployment agency sends you to a course, like to learn German, you are no longer part of the unemployment statistic even though you're still receiving welfare.
There are people in their 50s and 60s who are learning the hard way (particularly in 2020-2021) how much their company doesn't actually care about them.
It's true that sometimes it's needed to prevent further damage and agree it's a rough thing in human relationship.
Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real).
Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."
> That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship
The security policies didn’t come down from the mountain etched on a stone tablet. Humans thought them up and put them in place.
It’s important to remember and acknowledge that everything we do is the result of a human’s choice.
Then why isn' it the case in eg Germany. Whats different.
Seems crazy to hire people in the first place that you don't trust!
No, not really. Companies have that option but it's almost never used, only in extreme cases (e.g. when the company has a real reason to assume the employee would misuse their continued access).
Isn’t the US model of severance pay better because you can take a new job while in your severance period.
What’s the thinking behind this one? These rules are insane.
They are. Its the result of shallow thinking, socialism and pure graft. People don't consider there are considerable downsides to these regulations, and simply think "protecting the workers" is good.
Almost one month of free time. Spent that time learning new stack and landed a job that paid me twice as much as the old one.
In Europe its not so bad to get some spare time while still getting paid.
Friend was in similar situation, but he had 3 months of paid free time.
Coworkers just disappear and show as deactivated, and out of privacy nobody will tell you what happened. They just vanish.
some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
Other examples: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918
Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
I’m not looking for community at work, I’m looking for money.
I have seen this happening over and over.
Your 80/20 speaks to remuneration, which can be negotiated and does not have to be equal, especially when equality isn't fair.
Law Firms are one example where it could work, but even there you have Partners and Associates. And even Partners have levels (Equity Partners, Junior Partners, Full Partners... etc).
Communism itself has many flavors, and while soviet communism failed (arguably because it was just tsarism with a different tsar), Chinese communism is still very much a working model and a very successful one (for some definitions of success.)
Democratic socialism is also well represented today, with some stand-out performers in Europe.
As with all social systems, capitalism included, there are pros and cons, haves and have-nots. Some systems promote equality, some promote huge winners and losers. Naturally US businesses tend to model the national system (the only thing that matters is money) which typically makes them poor places to work.
But companies don't have to follow the national model - there are plenty of exploitive companies in Europe, and more than a few humane companies in the US.
During the Cultural Revolution, China tried to become "more communist" economically, with predictably bad outcomes.
This is lying to the investors about the status of the company, lying to the employees who keep on with their lives while they should be looking for new options.
This is pure fraud.
My biggest annoyance is that a bunch of large public companies did stock buybacks when the market was at record highs. Now that debt is expensive, doing secondary offerings just completes the buy high sell low scenario and shows bad leadership.
Though I agree lying is wrong
A big co announced to its employees 2 weeks before their assessment that the percentage of employees that will need “improvement” increased from 3% to 10%, and that this year they will offer in lieu payments for those who do not want to do the “improvement program”.
So there you go, 10% with 2 weeks notice.
If so, then that is not a layoff, and it often a common practice to avoid layoff, people already on the fence, close to retirement, etc will take the buyout.
I fail see what the issue is here....
The improvement was a two month program.
how is this helpful.
I ended up following her.
I suspect that I'm in a minority, though.
Of course I was lucky that I was single, in tech, w/ a high(er) salary that allowed me to do that, but it was a positively, life-changing turning point for me.
Since then, I've never re-joined the grind of FTE.
For regulatory / compliance reasons they may have been told to avoid discussions with you or direct you to HR.
It’s been a long journey but something to consider
It may not turn out the way that you think it will...
It was entirely expected. In fact, I lasted about two years longer than I thought would be the case.
The corporation shed all of its non-domestic engineering (it was a Japanese company). It also let go a bunch of other folks; including many in Japan, which was a big deal. My whole team was let go. A couple of engineers had moved on, beforehand.
I stayed until the end, because I wanted to be there for the team. I also knew that the company would provide a substantial “discretionary reimbursement.” They don’t give “severance,” and are careful to mention that this is not “severance.” The reason that it’s not “severance,” is because they use it as leverage to get you to sign a “non-disparagement” agreement.
I got a year’s salary. It was capped.
I had no problem signing the agreement. Even though it was a layoff, I had (still have) no resentment against the company. I feel that many of the decisions that were made, leading up to the layoff, were terrible, but I was not consulted. In fact, my warnings went unheeded (it was entirely predictable, years in advance), but working for them was one of my proudest life achievements. They were (for how much longer, I’m not sure) one of the best imaging companies on Earth. I worked as a peer, with some of the top engineers and scientists in the world.
As I said, the layoff, itself, was no surprise. What was a surprise, however, was the way I was treated by the industry, after the layoff. That treatment prompted me to just toss in the towel, and decide that I was in early retirement.
I’m sure that I could have gotten a fairly decently-paying job, if I had been willing to accept some pretty shabby treatment, and spend a couple of years, desperately looking, but I didn’t need to. All of the engineers that worked for me, eventually did quite well (we were a pretty leet team). As their manager, the rules were different, for me. I was not interested in another management position. I wanted to return to my engineering roots.
I knew that this would be a “hard sell,” so had spent many years, building a portfolio, and was willing to take a significant pay cut (I could afford it, and it would have been an insane bargain for other companies). I was quite willing to work for “risky,” or high-pressure environments, like a startup. I was looking for work that interested me. I’d spent my career, doing work that did not interest me, and having what work I did, misused or sidelined.
I just didn’t expect the incredibly shabby treatment that I received. It was a shock.
I know that my engineers were treated more respectfully, than was I. I’m pretty sure that my background as a manager had something to do with it, and that I was older than most of them. My network was pretty much useless, as they all knew me as a manager, so I had to go in, “cold.”
As it turned out, it was probably the best thing that could have happened. The last five years, have been some of the happiest in my life. My physical and mental health have drastically improved. Once I got over my butthurt, I was fine. I have worked harder than I ever did, as a wage slave, and have learned more than I dreamed I would (I’ve always been a good learner).
I have done all this work on my terms, using my development techniques, and at my pace (which is actually about five times greater than when I was working). I tend to be working from sunup, to way past sundown, seven days a week. I love working, and working hard. If no one is willing to pay me, I'll do it for free. My GH ID is solid green[0] (not an exaggeration. I only have one day, in the last year, when I wasn’t checking in Swift work, and that was because I was taking a Swift class, on that day).
I’m very fortunate, in being able to do this. It was the result of decades of frugality, conservative fiscal discipline, humble living, loyalty, and hard work. Old-fashioned stuff, that generally elicits guffaws, these days.
I feel bad about the folks encountering sudden, unexpected job loss, early in their career. It can be devastating, and leave traumatic scars. The tech industry has been spared a lot of this, but the piper has come calling, for us, as well.
But it can also be a chance to reset the baseline for a new life. One of the most significant watersheds in my own life, was when I almost got my ass fired, early in my career, for being an arrogant knucklehead. That was the seed, that started the humility and discipline that gave me the ability to be where I am, now.
How’s that for talking about a layoff?
> Being laid off is an emotionally shocking experience. It’s unexpected. It’s jarring. It throws everything off-kilter.
that depends on severance package. Can't say for other industries, in tech we're exceptionally lucky - the packages are large, and it isn't traumatic, it is a chance to finally update resume and find a better paying job. Speaking from personal experience in 2009, the worst tech hiring market since 2002, took me 1 month to find a job :) And it is hardly ever unexpected. Usually everybody knows almost for sure. Except may be really small startups where risk/volatility is naturally part of the game.
That totally depends on which countries you are in, and what kind of tech you are working with.
If only. What is this "package" you speak of?! :-)
I've been laid off a number of times, or had contracts end, sometimes abruptly, sometimes with ample notice, over the years.
Every time, the severance was precisely 0. No exceptions, whether it was standard employment or a contract. Yes, I work in tech as a SWE. No, they were not ended for bad reasons. In every case the terms just evaluated to 0 or didn't have severance terms.
I'm hopefully about to start a new job, and the terms on offer do not include any severance package no matter how long the service, but they are good in other ways. My previous job was the same. To be honest, because I've never received a severance package, it didn't occur to me to ask about it either of these times!
It really depends where you work.
one guy back then at Sun got into 3 layoffs over several years, each time getting as the severance - being a longtimer - a year worth of a very good Senior Staff salary and each time coming back to Sun in a few months (the requirement to repay pro-rated severance in case of being hired back had been already dropped by then :)
> And it is hardly ever unexpected. Usually everybody knows almost for sure.
I've never been laid off, but those sound like the exact opposite of everything I've seen from being around layoffs after 25 years in the industry.
Sounds like you picked two _really_ bad examples.
You can also enjoy many things outside of work.
The superficial, shallow, and fleeting nature of work relationships is the primary reason I’m working to become financially independent from the system. I like working, but I don’t like being in a situation where I can be trashed at a moments notice and completely upheave my day-to-day and having to readjust my goals.
I’ve become so disenchanted with working for somebody else, during the pandemic I discovered how much happier I could be focusing exclusively on hobbies and familial/friend/romantic relationships so all of these get prioritized above working most of the time for me.
with the way governments are behaving these days, no amount of money will guarantee financial independence
a cache of canned beans and bottled water, however...
But if I have ~$2MM in an index fund just sitting around, even a conservative 7.5% return YOY will afford me $150,000 per year in potential cash to pull out (without depleting the original principle) that nets me 112,500 after the maximum theoretical capital gains (just assume a naïve, flat 25%) which is more than enough to keep the lights on if I own my home, car, and do 90% of building maintenance myself.
The advantage here is that this part of the system is what the ultra wealthy rely on to amass more wealth so it's going to be one of the last institutions in society to fall apart because the wealthy and powerful will fight tooth and nail to make sure they can keep making money.
Oh my god, the FIRE community makes me laugh so hard. Just 4 years ago people were talking about how they only needed 4% average yearly gains, $48,000 per year in income, and inflation would stay at 2%.
It turns out that you can't eat money, and that real things become scarcer every year.
5 years from now people will be laughing at your numbers for being low :)
Also, this is terrible, I know, I don't like it either but it's the current instituional arrangement where we live. Still, being layoff is a burden because it shock your core values and make you doubt of your true self and worth. Some people can't get pass it.
Not sure such moment has ever existed. If employment was lifetime, it was either slavery or exploitation of a workforce that lacked mobility. There was maybe a generation of baby boomers that got lucky with a generation of companies that grew up with them and is still paying for their pensions, but otherwise history is not kind to workers.
5 jobs in 5 years is a red flag for some. 5 in 5 years plus a single 4-year long stint where you earned a promotion is a much better story IMO, but every hiring manager is different and plenty make the change every 12-18 months work for them.
The reason layoffs are cold and impersonal is that it’s a very fraught event for the company and lawsuits are quite common. So because of all the rules and regulations, the safest play is to say as little as possible to avoid any lawsuit. Therefore you will get very little reasoning and no emotional support from your former employer.
What I assume would bother me more is the worrying or fake compassion for me. We were not a family, we were "friends" only by convenience, the company didn't actually have an important mission other than making money and I know it. If I was just fired by you, pretending to feel bad (or even actually feeling bad) for me doesn't help me. I am already thinking about my next steps: I need to inform my wife, rethink my finances, and likely start looking for a new job.
Disclaimer: I was never fired yet, so of course I might be full of shot. And how one reacts also probably depends on which phase of your life you are in and how easily you think you get another job.