Hacker News Reader

Correct. It works in reverse too.

Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!

I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury.

Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again.

Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.

No sure why you’re getting downvoted, this makes sense. Humans are incredibly good at adapting to environments. From your perspective, it sounds like a change of pace kept things interesting.

Hah, slightly off topic, but I was there from 09-10 and remember that same journey from MCBH -> Manas -> Leatherneck -> COP -> Patrol Base.

I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).

> Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.

I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.

Yes, that's exactly it.

Also: chasing less has the same effect

> -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!

> I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile.

Huge yikes. I can understand adapting to the circumstances, but the concept of combat deployment becoming fun is highly alarming to me. My most charitable interpretation—that your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action or from thrill-seeking in a defensive position—the most minimal yikes I can muster is “I would never wish to watch MASH on fast forward this way”.

I’m not surprised this is being downvoted, but I’d appreciate someone actually leaving a comment in case there’s something I’m not understanding about how seven months of combat deployment can be fun that isn’t some combination of monstrous/traumatic.

Your mistake was to take the word "fun" literally.

What he meant was some "possibly enjoyable" state which was different from the "bored comfortable tedium" into which he had settled in.

We all have had similar experiences. When you have too much of the same routine however comfortable, your mind craves some "new" stimulus which will break the tedium.

> your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action

Correct. I saw none. :)

You should write a book about that mental experience. I would read it

> As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.

Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...

> I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)

Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964

I think you summarized it well :)

I remember the woodworking post, and think about it a lot.

I have observed over the years a tendency of people leaving software for something completely different (often something much more tangible).

Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not.

My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?

Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will.

Onto the last one. Good luck with that!

Being a software developer is but the initial larval stage.

I didn't want to edit my original post, but this is also relevant to this discussion and came up recently. It echoes your observations. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724942 https://whoisnnamdi.com/never-enough-developers/

> What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?

I think for some it's worth challenging the need for a "legacy" in the first place. This certainly is what helped my well-being, not feeling like I had to accomplish X or achieve Y for life to have been "worth it." I want to be kind, stay fed, and help others feel like things are OK which can be done through service both big and small. I guess it's about finding larger meaning in the smaller interactions vs. larger artifacts of legacy.

I'm not entirely in love with how I've represented my thoughts on this, but hopefully the meaning is conveyed.

Not OP but,

I don't have any issue with legacy, but I do with purpose. What's the point of it all? That's my core struggle.

I would say that, if one asks this question to often, then it's a sign of depression. Non-depressed people don't worry about such issues.

I have been told this before, by a therapist. The problem is, the first time I asked this question (the first known time at least) I was 6 years old. It's recorded on home video.

I've always wondered, if "god" made us, then who made "god"? And why? What am I doing here? Work, eat, sex, get old, get sick, die?

I have two thoughts on this, though I think the distinction between legacy and purpose is ultimately pretty thing.

1) Why does your existence need a "point"? Is the need to define such a thing coming from something innate, or is it a reaction to the world and expectations around you?

2) Define your own purpose, that's all anyone has ever done. There is nothing inherent. You almost certainly can't go wrong by giving your time to others, but even less "high-minded" pursuits - such as just consuming, appreciating culture - are valid paths. I think people fall into the trap of believing the only valid purpose is one that leaves a mark. It's a miracle any of exist, it's a valid purpose to just experience that miracle (hopefully in a way that doesn't preclude, or perhaps even enables, others to do the same).

But I'm not particularly informed, just relaying my own journey with this question.

Regarding (1) ...

There's also a somewhat therapeutic thought pattern that goes something like this:

Would I even want to live in a world where someone, or some thing, has pre-determined my purpose?

... I think it's relatively easy to say 'eek! No!'

So then, define your own purpose (2)!

Ok... I can do that. My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.

I guess the secret is in finding peace with that purpose. It's not grandiose, it's not going to leave a mark, but it's probably the most realistic based on my aspirations and drive. Of course I'd love to say that my purpose is eradicating some childhood illness, or starting a business empire, or discovering a new form of energy... but yea, those aren't realistic and are likely to make me feel worse if I try to adopt them as my purpose in life.

Anyways, just my thoughts as I digest your post. Thanks.

> My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.

I personally think their is beauty in simplicity, including in this purpose. Though I'd perhaps maybe add something around "finding some joy" beyond "just getting through it", but that is coming from my own values/worldview, not from any sort of informed wisdom.

I am leaving to the Caparthian mountains to pursue building violins and to open a wedding destination so I can play them as much as possible. I am very close. I don't hate software but I really do miss the physical aspect of work so I think I found a way to "bridge the gap". It's also hard to really play after thinking all day.

I have gotten into writing and self-publishing fiction. It's not as physically tangible as moving into farming or woodworking, but feels far enough from programming to sort of count in this same category. When (re)-discovering that I really liked writing I also took on an SE role that involved both coding and technical writing. I love coding and don't think I'll ever want to stop doing it, but I realised that over the years this one hobby turned into a profession and then turned into my entire identity and sole preoccupation. Trying something totally different, like writing fiction, seems to have helped me to break free a bit of the box I built around myself.

But I do still dream of also starting a chicken rescue farm.

I feel like"software" is a really big bucket and there's actually a wide spectrum of projects with different scopes and missions. Some projects are actively harmful to society and I would have a hard time getting meaning from building such software. However there is also a lot of useful progress we can make too, so anyone finding low motivation to keep at it should consider building something else as an option.

I think you drastically over-estimate how "fulfilling" something like therapy is. Day in and day out you will see people you desperately wish to help, who if they listened to 20% of what you offered would see their lives change immensely, only to watch them repeat the same behavior without change day in and day out. Worse, if you deal with depressed or addicted people it's just a matter of time before a client kills themselves.

Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that.

All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!).

If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-...

Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.

> shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself

I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?

Send me an email at this temp address if you'd like to chat: pibig18709 at teasya dot com

That Dragon Cancer is certainly one.

I would like to add two other ways to get off the hedonic treadmill for a bit.

1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to.

2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.

I've done an extended backpacking trip (4 months). Probably took about a month before feeling like a truly therapeutic break. I don't think a week would have been nearly enough.

Did you live out in the wilderness that whole time or travel around out of a backpack? The two are obviously very different so am curious your experience. I have had friends who have backpacked along the PCT, CDT, AT, etc. and they all returned different people.

AT 2016 SOBO section hiker. Just the northern half (from Katahdin to Harper's Ferry), so I might have only came back half a different person. :) I took it pretty leisurely and stopped in at towns often, so I probably averaged about 9-10 miles per day. I'm not an outdoorsman by any stretch, but it was nice to just get away for a while. Definitely made me appreciate the small and simple conveniences of civilization that I often take for granted.

The generalization is that you need some "stress" in your life to remain grounded, i.e something that you engage on a level that produces a sense of urgency. Backpacking and living minimally can definitely do that. Taking up a sport that has some element of fear/danger can do that as well.

>A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.

Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.

Anecdotal evidence is that you can hack the hedonic treadmill by having interests outside of work. If nothing in your life is more challenging than work, then all of your yardsticks will be based upon it.

If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.

So true. He should go do the 4X4X48 challenge.

This is possibly true.

I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different.

A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout.

Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.

What was the main difference between the two locations?

Are these major cities or more rural?

I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.

As someone who has split time across rural/urban life, going rural to get away from drinking oriented socializing is probably not going to work as well as you think it will.

How so?

For anyone interested, the above topics (Stoicism, positive psychology, budhism) are all nicely discussed in Happiness Hypothesis, by Jonathan Haidt.

Which is an excellent book, thank you for pointing that out.

Which one? “Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom” or “Ten Ways to Find Happiness and Meaning in Life”?

For me, engaging in a sport that borders on meditation expanded my mind, I paddleboard around sunset/nights. This tremendously improved my mental state after being trapped inside for most of 2020.

Friendlier, less user-hostile link:

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen...

(The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)

I've been using this[1] plugin (made by a friend) for years now to get around this issue.

1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...

Yes, these are popular, although unfortunately they don't help the most abused clients: mobile users. Anyhow, this is off-topic. Reddit is an ungrateful, rent-seeking gatekeeper of UGC, news at 11.

Thanks, updated my post. I'm usually logged in in the classic site so I didn't think what it would be like for others.

> it is our job to give back

I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly:

Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra

Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity

Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences

Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships

It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job

The hedonic treadmill aspect is very relevant, but first we must wonder if perfectjob's work is fulfilling is its social value.

perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.

I think this is why in part some successful artists, once they live in expensive mansions and have already gained access to every luxury, completely lose perspective in life and get into substance abuse, addictions, etc.

Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...

There's also the angle that each day is the same as yesterday and the person doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere. It's the same as laying bricks for life or being a simple farmer. It puts food on the table but does nothing for the mind.