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Comment by jmondi | Hacker News Reader

I had this laptop, but ultimately replaced it with a 14” M1 Max. Some thoughts: - The screen is so much worse, in every way, than a MacBook. A “low resolution” (more like, not high dpi) matte screen vs the M1 screen, there is no comparison. When I first got this machine, my eyes would have to adjust to the screen, and it felt so blurry compared to my works retina Touch Bar Mac - PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I’ve used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it’s money… But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I’m sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola. - You would need to be pretty comfortable on a command line, and using Linux, to be comfortable using a Linux desktop. This computer would not be okay for my wife. - The keyboard keys started showing wear and tear after less than 9 months. The keys started to peel, basically, the home-row keys all lost their gloss coat where you could see it visibly that usage had caused a hole in the keys glossy layer. - I had a fully specced i7, and the performance was great. It out performed my works 2019 i7 MacBook with Touchbar. As for my M1… the M1 is faster. - I loved how the screen opened all the way 180 degrees, it was something I didn’t think I’d even care about, but it was nice to have. - The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures. No nice click feeling. TINY. THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with such small touchpads? It is maddening. - It would charge over USB-C, but there was only 1 USB-C port, so that was kind of annoying. It did have a regular charger…. That was like the windows laptop I had in 2005. Short cord, and don’t accidentally trip on the cord while it is charging, or else GG laptop. Overall, I was glad I tried it. For a variety of reasons, I want there to be viable Mac alternatives in the field. I ended up selling my Lemur Pro a few months after I got my 14” M1.

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I don't want to comment much on the rest, but the whole trope of: a Linux machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable with the cli" needs to die. My partner is essentially computer illiterate (she didn't know about keyboard shortcuts, even for copy paste before we met and still doesn't really use them) and has been using my old Ubuntu laptop for years. The only thing I do is tell her from time to time not just to click away the update (she is a good example why having optional updates is not a good thing). Her issues are pretty much the same she would have for a Windows or Mac machine, usually related to how something in a word processor works. Also my mother (78yo) is using Linux as a only system, and she does a lot of photography and video work. She has actually even become quite competent with the cli by now, just because she likes to try stuff.

It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable. We've had plenty of examples of totally tech illiterate people using linux with zero problems since 1999 but they're totally irrelevant because they happen to be the people who are on the narrow set of rails that don't touch linux's rough edges.

To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common people need to do can't be done without the CLI.

And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the case of a specific person who has a specific common need that linux falls over at.

How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people?

I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux. The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation, another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and spy on them.

Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there. Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine be praised).

It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you have to actively persue it.

I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going on.

It's all software really. Most people would be fine without Adobe or Microsoft Office or Google Docs. We don't need to train kids with GitHub, Sibelius or Dorico, the list goes on. Concepts don't require application-specific training and the FOSS options are largely good enough if not better than the proprietary competitors.

And would be even better and improve faster with more users.

> How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people?

When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft employees a small army of user experience designers to ensure it’s a great experience. It’s not perfect, but I can do everything I need to do using the GUI.

This isn’t a case of learning how to do the same thing differently. The GUI is objectively better for most consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies more heavily on CLI.

Holistic "experience" to me includes privacy protections. Windows spies on the user at every turn. GUI elements are not hard to get right. Launchers make it all even easier.

That's fair. For those who value privacy over ease of use, Linux is the way to go. I'm just not sure that group is very large. I don't, for example.

Can you name one thing that a NOOB-friendly Linux requires the command line for that a technically illiterate user can accomplish in MacOS / Windows?

Changing mouse acceleration settings is one I ran into, there was no option in the UI at all and google searches brought up config file edits that went completely over my head. I think it was on either Pop or Fedora KDE.

In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.

And there is literally no way to do it on Mac. Or, you know, disable scroll acceleration, an abomination that needs to die.

This is quite typical of the kinds of things you need to “dip into the CLI” for Linux that people complain about.

Things that other OS’es usually don’t even allow.

Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and it’s usually a single liner at that, most online resources tend to provide the single liner that one can use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want, because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly replicate with their mouse or trackpad.

The most common example of this is that pretty much every application will give its installation instructions as:

sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome).

When you can just as well go to the software center, search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to thunderbird.com, download the package and double click/install.

However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to “dip into the CLI”.

At least on my Arch KDE setup it's System Settings -> Input Devices -> Mouse and I've got an Acceleration Profile option between Flat or Adaptive. I can also just open up the settings and search for "acceleration" to get there. I can also just pop open the "start menu" (or whatever you choose to call it for KDE) and type "acceleration" and the first option is "Mouse"

I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration set to anything non-standard.

Sadly this isn’t so easy on Ubuntu. And it’s not like we can tell everyone to “just use Arch,” because Arch has its own tough edges.

Oh yeah, Arch isn't for the faint of heart, but this should work on any distro running KDE. A quick check tells me Ubuntu is running Gnome 3 by default where you need Gnome Tweak Tool to access the same setting. That sucks, I agree, and I hate that Gnome is trying to go the direction of mobile by locking things down and removing configuration, but considering the OSX doesn't expose this setting at all and you need either the terminal or a 3rd party app to modify it, I also don't think that not having this setting readily available disqualifies Linux from being usable without the terminal, unless we're going to claim the same is true of Macs.

This does not require CLI. https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/mouse-sensiti...

GNOME tweak tool has even more options, also from a GUI: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Tweaks

That adjusts speed, not acceleration. Tweak Tool is indeed what’s needed, but it’s not apparent to a newbie. I spent hours finding that particular app when I first used Ubuntu. It’s absurd that that kind of functionality isn’t built in.

I thought that was a acceleration.

Perhaps they'd not know of gnome tweaks, though they could remember Power Tools from Windows....

Mouse speed is how far the cursor moves for some distance of physical mouse movement. Mouse acceleration additionally makes the cursor's speed increase when the mouse's acceleration (change of speed over time) is faster.

Mouse acceleration is annoying (bordering on infuriating, imo) because it changes cursor movement from an easy 1:1 mapping of mouse movement->cursor movement by adding an additional dimension. You then not only have to keep in mind how far you're moving your mouse, but also how quickly you're moving it. I can't fathom why UI designers seem to think that it's so great that it should be present with no ability to disable it.

Installing NVIDIA drivers?

Why would you be installing NVidia drivers in a machine that has come with Linux preloaded and graphics drivers already installed?

Oh, you’re doing an Apple to Oranges comparison between Linux manually installed on a machine vs Mac or Windows coming preloaded on the machine?

Because if you did an apples to apples comparison, any decent computer with Linux preinstalled will come with all the drivers installed as well. And when it comes to manually installing, installing drivers for Windows can also be a pain, and don’t even get started on trying to install Mac on a machine it didn’t come preinstalled on. Hackintoshes are hard to make work even for experts.

Last time I ran Ubuntu, (which has admittedly been years) it'd start with the open source drivers by default and prompt you with an to install the proprietary drivers. Doing so was two clicks.

Is this no longer true?

Solving problems. Like, the happy path may have a UI, but if that doesn't work, or isn't quite right, any troubleshooting most likely will not have a UI.

As mentioned in a parent thread, compare the installation instructions between Windows/OSX/Linux for Radarr: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation

Radarr needs functionality that is more specialized than most apps so there's special instructions and edge cases on all three platforms. But the Linux version is significantly more complicated because Linux doesn't provide as many out of the box tools for installation that works across all distributions like Windows or Mac.

I mean I'd just use containers (e.g. Docker) for it with a reverse proxy (also container). But I also don't think this is software which you're supposed to run on a System 76 laptop. You're supposed to run it on a 24/7 machine, a server. Could be a Raspberry Pi (if you can get hold of one :P).

The issue is that open source distributions don't have access to the level of testing and quality control that the proprietary desktop duopoly do. Microsoft and Apple can spend millions of dollars to make it very unlikely that a system update will break your system. And even if when it breaks, there is such a large user base that a solution will usually be easy to find.

Linux ditros don't have that. In my experience, Ubuntu and Fedora don't have that level of stability especially when running a heavy desktop like Gnome or KDE. My Arch laptop very stable, but I'm running a minimalist desktop. In the rare occasions where something goes wrong I have the experience and inclination to quickly learn to fix it.

I wish there were more competition in the commercial space, but I'm not sure that it's even a good idea for open source to try to match the GUI administration utilities from the proprietary OS's. It's far too much work troubleshooting weird corner cases. I wholeheartedly recommend Linux or open source for people who want the level of control over their machines that open source allows. But for people who just want their machine to work, it's reasonable to cede control to Apple or Microsoft.

Maybe PopOS, with it's backing from a commercial vendor on limited hardware will change this.

And yet, I have never heard of a Linux update which bricked your system, something that has happened with both Windows and OSX.

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/this-macos-update-is-bricking...

https://www.itpro.com/hardware/358739/apple-releases-macos-u...

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-10-update-now-brickin...

Searching Linux update bricking systems brought up nothing relevant. The closest I could find was a forum post by a user complaining about the update bricking their “experimental system”.

The Macos examples are particularly bad. Bricking systems with logic boards replaced by Apple repair and because you connected to “unauthorized” USB devices.

Literally the first time I installed Ubuntu in 2009, I booted into it, it asked me to install a bunch of updates, and when I did the required reboot, it dropped me into the boot terminal with a bunch of vague errors.

Linux is not infallible.

You have not heard of it? Well, you're replying to someone who's using Arch. With Arch, you get into trouble all the time, but if you're well versed with Linux (and Arch) you can fix it.

I'm using Arch, and ZFS, on my work laptop. A month ago, when I update my kernel, boom I had to use Systemrescue because it would no longer boot ZFS root. And of course just at that day I lost my Ventoy USB stick (probably my 2 y.o. son got rid of it ...)

> The issue is that open source distributions don't have access to the level of testing and quality control that the proprietary desktop duopoly do.

In the case of Windows, there's a lot of onus on the OEM. Of course, most OEMs will not test Linux at all, so either you find a vendor that supports Linux or you YOLO it. Of course, if you YOLO, you're so helping ensure the market continues to make _more_ Windows-only hardware, so you can look forward to even more YOLO.

> I wish there were more competition in the commercial space,

Unlike in previous decades*, you actually can buy laptops with Linux pre-installed, from vendors that actually support it. This is huge.

If you want Linux that Just Works, for the love of God, stop buying Windows hardware. Sometimes I think the smartest thing Apple ever did was require Apple hardware to run OSX.

*Ask this greybeard how he knows.

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

I have quarter of century experience working on Linux including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23 years.

Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job and I jumped the ship for M1 MacBook Pro. It still has a lot of problems but at least I have more time to do my actual work.

I understand I might just becoming less tolerant of wasting time on things that should just work (my actual work being more and more distant from tinkering with OS internals).

But, if I with all my experience am spending time keeping it alive, what has to do a person that has no idea about systemd or pulse audio or dealing with failed upgrades or anything else? Essentially -- you are using it until first problem happens and then you can either reinstall it from scratch or switch to Windows or Mac.

I still keep a Linux laptop dedicated for critical security tasks (I don't trust Apple this much) and a number of Linux VMs (I am running small datacenter at home).

Run Linux everyday. I am a heavy tech user. Multi polyglot developer.. what are you doing that turns admin into a full time job..

Even my stupid obtuse use case is not that heavy.

In my experience, the people who spend so much time maintaining their Linux are the people hacking on their OS. Which is something I encourage; the customizability of Linux is part of what makes it so great.

But if you load up the newest Ubuntu lts on a laptop and never fiddle with configs, switch display managers/ desktops, etc, then there will be zero maintenance required.

Also, buy Linux preinstalled and fully supported by the vendor. Saves so many headaches.

I agree, if you install and never do anything with it it will usually work. But that isn't very high bar for usability. What about people who actually use their machines for anything else than just browsing Internets? I had people break it even in this relatively simple case.

I'll give you an example. I am using an external DAC (connected over Toslink). It starts up automatically when it detects digital audio signal and shuts down when the signal stops. Unfortunately, the startup sequence takes couple of seconds (it has a delay of 2s and then slowly increases the volume over 4s, can't be configured).

So in the default configuration, PipeWire insists to turn off the audio whenever there is no client to play anything for more than X seconds.

This is super annoying, every time you try to play youtube video after going to kitchen for coffee you are loosing first couple of seconds of audio.

This can be changed (remove a module that causes automatic suspend), but over last couple of years I had to redo this configuration at least 5-6 times after various PipeWire upgrades because PipeWire developers don't give a shit about user configuration and are happy to override it or in fact do some stupid things like move it from /etc to /usr/share so you are left guessing why your config files no longer do what they were supposed to do.

ArchWiki is a well-known recommendation to every newbie who has technical needs. Quote:

"PulseAudio will first look for configuration files in the home directory ~/.config/pulse/, and if they are not found, the system-wide configuration from /etc/pulse/ will be applied.

Tip: It is strongly suggested not to edit system-wide configuration files, but rather edit user ones. Create the ~/.config/pulse directory, then copy the system configuration files into it and edit according to your need. Make sure you keep user configuration in sync with changes to the packaged files in /etc/pulse/. Otherwise, PulseAudio may refuse to start due to configuration errors."

"[...]or by creating a new file that includes it with the syntax .include /etc/pulse/name. For simple changes the latter is preferred because the user will not be required to update the file when system-wide defaults change."

So this particular example is moot unless PA somehow disregards the /home config and loads its system-wide config anyway or does some weird overrides. Any details or other examples?

I am sorry, I made a mistake, it was PipeWire not Pulse.

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/pipewire-config-files-just-d...

I normally don't edit the text substantially after somebody responds but this time I corrected Pulse to PipeWire not to slander Pulse developers for no reason.

Eh, maybe this behavior was changed, but PipeWire works in the same way ATM:

"The PipeWire configuration template file is located in /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf. You can copy and edit the file to /etc/pipewire/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf. Since 0.3.45 you can also copy fragments of the config file to a file in the directories /usr/share/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/, /etc/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/ or ~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d/."

TBH, while this is a common pattern across Linux applications, the thought to look for override location in the /home folder comes solely from experience and I am not aware of any place suggesting it. I tend to treat all of root as if it was an immutable file system that is a hassle to edit manually. Saves a lot of headache.

> I have quarter of century experience working on Linux including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23 years.

> Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems like a full time job

These two statements are not unrelated.

I've been running Linux for most of the last 25 years, too. But I've mostly learned how to keep things simple.

I buy high-DPI Dell Precision laptops. They're pricey, and the build-quality is meh, but they come preloaded with Linux. Everything works. I leave all but a few settings on factory defaults, and I never run anything but a "Long Term Support" release of the OS. In case of hardware issues, I buy an on-site service plan.

I won't claim that it's perfect. But I spend less than 20 hours a year "keeping it working." Which is less than some of my MacOS coworkers spend fighting with Docker and other Unix tools on the Mac, so it's a wash. It's not like getting the Python development ecosystem to work on an M1 Mac is all sweetness and joy.

One secret to my success is that I try very hard not to customize anything. To paraphrase Yoda, once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

I do not recommend Linux for casual users. But for developers who deploy on Linux, it can be a very reasonable choice.

No one is claiming Linux is bad for very basic users. It’s fine for people who only ever use bowsers. Linux is also great for developers. It’s most of us in between who struggle. The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google and more time installing an additional tool. I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation

Linux developers need to start caring about UX if they want the OS to appreciably rise above 1-2% consumer. Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not when I want to install or configure an app, and certainly not when I want to update a driver or setting.

I've had these issues with Gnome and Gnome derivatives. Give KDE Plasma a try. The UI/UX situation is vastly different (this is coming from a Gnome lifer).

Thanks! I think my next attempt will be some flavour of Arch.

> I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation

That's because it's written by developers. Devs are generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people" might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would they be better off compiling software from source. It's a known problem: documentation writing is one of the most hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody reads the docs"...

In this particular case: the docs here are really, really badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the wiki try to be helpful:

> If you want an easy life, follow this community provided and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install.

There's a link to the script below. That's already the best you can expect from developers who are not specifically paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a framework that generates the installers automatically). The vast majority of devs never consider that people would like to easily and quickly install their software to try it out, then uninstall it if it's not to their liking.

Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/ just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up there with every `make install` I execute.

I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way of working on and with software, just thought I'll share what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things for two decades...

> The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google

It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS, but the initial research suggested it's even worse there (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second, and last" policy for some reason).

> Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI.

Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have their place - they present very different trade-off between accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+ years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI on home computers. Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.

[1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Pro...

[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

[3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.

I have used the Radarr and Sonarr Docker images for around 5 years now. Those were super easy to deploy -- so when I read this comment that the manual was ridiculous I didn't believe it.

Then I read the manual and it's totally true: this is some of the least user-friendly documentation I have ever seen! Terribly tough to follow.

>That's because it's written by developers.

I understand this is the fault of the developer, but that's not my problem. I'm a consumer and I want my application to install in under 60 seconds like it does in Windows. Too many developers rely on the CLI in Linux, and this means that, too often, my Linux experience is much worse than my Windows experience. I don't care who is to blame. It just is.

>Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence.

I agree. To be clear, the CLI has many benefits. It just has so few, comparatively, in the consumer space, and developers seem adamant to push consumers to use the CLI in Linux. For 99% of my use cases, everything is easier and faster in a GUI.

> I don't care who is to blame. It just is.

You already know the answer to this: if you don't like it, you should fix it! It's open source! In other words, the all too familiar blaming the victim.

It's silly, yes. Especially since there are at least 5 ways of making self-contained, one-file or single-directory distributions of software under Linux. Discord comes as a zip file that you need to unpack, then click on the "Discord" executable - and done. Joplin (my note-taking app choice) uses AppImage, where you download a single file and run it, done. It can be done. Yet, it's not done in the vast majority of cases.

You're not interested in reasons why it's not being widely adopted, so let me just talk to myself. Personally, I'd blame package managers. They are too good, too convenient, to the point that not using them is a real hassle. Those of us who remember the dependency hell won't give up package managers until death do us part. Yet, there are too many of them. Having 3 different pkg managers on a single system (deb, snap, flatpak) is sheer madness.

There's also obsession with dynamic linking combined with reluctance to bundle the required libraries with an app (because updates! we would need to actually track development and test new versions of libraries as they appear, who has time for that?!), and a few other problems. As a whole it's a societal problem that won't go away in the foreseeable future. It's also... not a bad problem to have. It guarantees a heavy push-back against app stores, at least.

I disagree on not using the cli for installing things etc. Instructions on commands are much easier than instruction about the gui, because they are easily copy pastable.

One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for installing python and packages for building cython modules. I have students who are very much intermediate Windows users, but explaining to them how to get the development (they need python for experiment control and analysis) environment going is really painful. They often take days to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much easier, I just give them the commands to install the packages in an email.

First of all, training users to copy stuff into a terminal is just a bad idea.

Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command line.

It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and easy to use package manager, and if users are having trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to rectify that.

Also, if you’re targeting power users who are familiar with the command line, that’s one thing. But right now linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for everyone and that’s a very hard rope to walk

> I disagree on not using the cli for installing things

I think that it depends on who the target audience is. For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I agree with the parent comment that you should be able to do everything without opening the CLI.

For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)

Your use case is for developers, and as above, I agree that CLI is easier for that demographic. I am referring to the people between developers and "only ever use browsers." For them I strongly disagree with the notion of telling them to blindly copy and paste sudo commands into terminal. And if the implication is that they should just become proficient with using terminal, then I strongly disagree with anyone having to learn a new skill to install and configure apps and services. We have easy, well tested and well adopted conventions for software now. It's time to accept what is, instead of fighting for what you think others should like.

> The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation

There exists a Docker image: https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to be absurd: https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Doc....

While true, this appears to require the CLI. As above, I strongly believe that the CLI should never ever, for any reason ever, be required to install apps. Dockers are also not exactly plug and play, and some understanding of what dockers are, how to maintain them, how to grant file and folder permissions, and how to update packages is required. Your suggestion presents a new set of problems.

The command line is a problem for intermediate users. I consider Linus from LTT to be at the upper end of intermediate and he was borderline incompetent in Linux. When you have enough knowledge to be dangerous and the hubris to assume you know everything you should need to know, you will find yourself in deep trouble quickly.

The most computer illiterate will be fine, but they will not be buying a machine like this. The most advanced people will probably be fine mainly because their expectations will be in check. I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old to debug issues in windows and linux because his expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated too quickly.

Anyway, I think success in linux is more mental than anything. The terminal shouldn't be the frightening thing people like to think it is. It's just FUD. I'm in the terminal all the time on my Mac and no one seems to have an issue with that.

> I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old to debug issues in windows and linux because his expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated too quickly.

Please persist in your effort. Teaching your kid logical thinking and scientific method ("debugging") and helping him not to be easily frustrated are probably skills that he will need anyway later on.

Thanks, I agree 100%. It's a process, he's a hormonal teenager at the moment that I have to wear white gloves with when it comes to these things. We are making progress, tho... since I got him the Steamdeck he's been in Linux about 90% of the time and asking tons of questions.

Windows is the same way. But even worse, since instead of a broken machine, you’ll enroll in some bot-net. Someone who knows enough to be dangerous in Windows starts downloaded and running random executables from the internet when things go wrong.

Same here. I put mint on my.computer illiterate girlfriend's old computer. She used it as effectively as any other os. The update issue is real though.

Yeah, it's a bit like "A windows machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable editing registry entries".

Or "A mac is not for someone who isn't comfortable with hidden system files".

I.e. things the average user doesn't interact with anyway, and if they have to they'll probably do it by following a couple of steps blindly from the internet and that is that.

I don't know who decided shinny screens are better but they aren't for me. Maybe they slightly reproduce color more accurately but most people are not graphic designers.

Matt screens exist for a reason and can't just dismiss them as being inferior when they specifically solve a problem many have.

Maybe they sell better in a store but so do touch screens in cars. Once you however want to use them you realize the mistake you made.

I hate this world we are turning into where we redesign things for the worse because "look it's shiny". For me a laptop is a utility item and I need it to work. It needs to be able to use the CPU in it and not be throttled down to crap so it can be in a thin case.

I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more high-res/low-res.

It seems to be a point of pride in the Linux community that low-res screens are sufficient. Maybe it's because only Apple has figured out how to do both high-res and long battery life/low weight in a single system. The ultrabooks (air clones) are all struggling to replicate it. My 4k XPS13 has atrocious battery life. The only way that this machine manages to get good battery life is via a 2008-era screen resolution and the world's slowest GPU.

It's a very hard problem to do small+light, with long battery life, and a high-res screen. The whole class of "ultrabooks" was invented by Apple with the MBAir, then retconned into a notebook category, and they're still way out ahead on the screen/gpu/battery life situation, as well as speakers.

Presently all long battery life ultrabooks are low-res and have speakers that remind me of the 90s.

There's also this weird meme that Linux HiDPI isn't ready or something. Back in 2001 I had a small 1600x1200 dell desktop monitor at work, and an even higher DPI Sony Trinitron CRT at home.

They were both unusable under Windows, and probably MacOS 9/10.0, but worked fine out of the box in Debian (once you set the DPI correctly in xfree86's config file).

High DPI support for Linux has strictly regressed since then, since, for some reason, people think Apple's scaling hacks are capable of pixel perfect rendering, and ported them to Linux.

It's not just resolution. Color gamut and accuracy is also derided for no reason. You might get downvoted for suggesting a screen in 2022 should have P3 coverage when 4-year-old mid-range smart phones do. It's really odd to me too because many web developers are working in browser with designers, game devs have graphics, people do graphical hobbies, etc. so it's an important feature to 'doing work' but last I checked zero Linux laptops were shipping with gamuts beyond sRGB.

> I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more high-res/low-res.

I definitely wish it were easier to get a matte+high-res combo.

Agree. It’s a shame the Linux community is so set in its ways. All I really want is decent, grown-up looking Arch Linux laptop with reasonable battery life and performance that boots to CLI and has retina resolution (>200ppi). People imagine retina must be all about graphics, but for me it’s 90% for sharp text. It doubles the amount of time I can use a computer before my brain starts flagging. I use a MacBook Pro because of retina. I wish the rest of the industry would get their shit together, it’s like they have a huge collective blind spot. It’s bizarre to me that PPI is almost never listed on spec sheets and I have to calculate it myself to find out if the screen is going to make my eyes and brain hurt. And they almost all fall short. Outside Apple, high PPI seems to be limited to ‘gamer’ laptops with flashing multicoloured lights for overgrown children. I wish someone would just make a decent plain aluminium laptop with a sharp screen. End rant. Sorry.

If all the apple hardware including their gpu (maybe except particularly proprietary things like Touch ID / Secure Enclave) were supported well on Linux and power management we’re sufficiently figured out to not bea total disaster, would that be ok or is it unacceptable that the thing came with nonfree software or to risk apple’s future hardware being unsupportable?

That would be more than OK. I have no hard rules about free vs non-free, I’m pragmatic. But I don’t see that happening. Apple don’t want to put time into helping support other OSes on their hardware, it’s not something they want to do and that’s their call. At least they design good computers. What frustrates me is that no one else in the industry gives the slightest f** about pixel density, even when Apple has demonstrated for years that people really value sharpness. Other manufacturers don’t even mention pixel density, it feels like they’re denying reality. Anyone who looks at an Apple screen can see the difference. My elderly mother said ‘wow’ when she saw her first retina laptop screen. It’s just a different experience. It’s weird how this has been the situation for so many years now.

> What frustrates me is that no one else in the industry gives the slightest fuck about pixel density, even when Apple has demonstrated for years that people really value sharpness.

It's not that they don't, it's that they can't. There's no way to make a high ppi laptop that's small and light and doesn't kill the battery in 3 hours of use.

GPUs that drive that many pixels are power hungry. Apple designs their own integrated GPUs now.

100% agreed. My dream machine would be an M2+ Air running a stable release of Debian with full hardware support. (And I mean full hardware support, including the fingerprint scanner, trackpad gestures, properly handling the notch where applicable, etc.)

Apparently Asahi recently published their first alpha release. Does anyone know how close it is to being usable as a daily driver?

Also, has anyone tried the Tuxedo laptop that came up in another recent thread? I'd be surprised if the trackpad entirely held up, and I'm personally against including USB-A or proprietary charging ports in any new hardware, but it is at least the first Linux laptop I've seen with a high-DPI screen. Inclusion of a Dvorak layout option is also a nice touch (Apple still forces me to pop out and rearrange the keys, which feels like a ridiculous kludge for such expensive devices). If Ryzen 7 is halfway competitive with M1's efficiency, I could see this being a very attractive option for a lot of people.

[1]: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Notebooks/...

I have used 1080p all my life and never thought that I need it to be higher resolution. So for me the risk of Linux high DPI support not working, high cost and higher power usage make no sense to me.

I've had a 2560x1440 27" for a long time and recently switched to 4K scaled to 2560x1440 and the difference is absolutely crazy. Everything is so sharp and crisp, letters look so much better, way easier on the eyes. And that's with plenty of people on here claiming that macOS does a bad job downscaling by non-integer values, not that I'd notice anything wrong. I remember my first retina laptop screen felt just as crazy good.

Don't knock it till you try it. 80% of my usage is text - terminal, code or my notes. Even most of my web usage is text.

I won't go less than a high dpi screen, preferably near 4k.

I'm happy with what I have. Why try for more, that just leads to misery when things "have" to be a certain way for you to be happy.

It's the sunset cigar thing. Guy watches the sunset from his porch every evening. One day he smokes a cigar at the same time. Loves it. Now he HAS to smoke a cigar every evening or he can't enjoy it. What has he gained?

A man sleeps on the floor every night; one night he sleeps on a mattress and now needs a mattress every night…

Bad analogy. Nobody is satisfied with sleeping on a bare floor.

I don't know if there's data to support this but from what I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average. So it's not like they think low res screens are "sufficient", most of them just don't think it's justified to pay twice as much for a better screen and the market just reflects this. Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.

Doesn't matter though because things are changing, native Linux device makers like S76 and Tuxedo provide have started providing 4k screens on their models.

> I don't know if there's data to support this but from what I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average.

> Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.

Bringing a flat nothing to go against an anecdote isn't very helpful at figuring out what's right.

Sometimes it's useful to point out flimsy evidence, but they already did that. You need to bring your own thoughts in this situation.

I’m an artist and I am just as annoyed by reflections off the glass hiding what I’m doing as a programmer is. I have heard glossy screens took over largely because they look better in a store.

It has better contrast, deeper blacks. I find reflections just as big an issue on matte screens too.

Glossy screens sometimes have good antireflective coatings which help (new imacs, ipads eg)

I went from a lemur 14" to a Mac m1 and the following things broke:

- dual monitors were detected only as one monitor, and we're mirrored.

- USB mouse (I disprefer Bluetooth mice) would have to be unplugged and plugged back in if the laptop went to sleep

- no home/end keys

- I had installed all of my corporate 2FA stuff on safari and safari would randomly drop me from Google meets. No other browser had this issue.

The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity while I had the laptop but I figure I would have learned it eventually.

The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor (like with every laptop or computer I’ve ever owned, even the Lemur Pro). After you setup your monitors, it remembers the setup every time you connect after.

Yeah agreed with a corded USB mouse, I just have mine plugged into my monitor, one usb c cable to my laptop for video, power, and data. Lemur Pro did this just as good as my Mac, no complaints there.

Home and end I’m pretty sure is just CMD + left arrow, and CMD + right arrow.

Totally agree, safari is a crap shoot. I used Firefox on my Lemur and on my Mac.

I actually ended up remapping my Lemur Pro so that the modifier keys matched the placement of a Mac. I like my main modifier (ctrl on Linux/win, cmd on Mac) to be the key just next to the space bar.

I liked the Lemur Pro a lot. Just trying to give some constructive feedback.

> The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor

Incorrect. I had several Mac users look at it and none could figure out what was wrong. I suspect apple drivers don't support usb-c to dual display port.

Lemur has no problem with usb-c to dual displayport. Job eventually replaced Mac with a librem (which I don't love), it also had no problems.

> - no home/end keys

> The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity

I am forced to work on a Mac at my job. Buying a Mac-layout mechanical keyboard is a must. It has home/end and it has control in the right place (why on earth would apple put fn in the bottom left??).

I wonder the same thing, but opposite. Why in the world would windows/linux put their main modifier key all the way in the bottom left? On every keyboard (I have a Moonlander, a Mode65, and Mode80, I map the keys to match a default Mac. So it is like ctrl -> alt -> super.

> no home/end keys

Command + left or right will do it. Works great on a laptop or small keyboard where you don’t have home/end.

>THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with such small touchpads? It is maddening.

Some of these points are subjective. I used to be an Apple touchpad evangelist, but at some point they switched to having enormous touchpads without any buttons. (the touchpad is the button) I had a touchbar Macbook Pro, and I'd get accidental input from the touchpad with good regularity. I wanted the touchpad from a 2007 Macbook Pro.

It is very subjective: For me the smaller the better, if you give a track point instead. I do not understand why people want to move there hand so much while working...

Honestly most of the reason I like a big touchpad is gestures. On mac especially. Switching desktops is 3 fingers to the side. My fingers aren't that small, it's a lot easier to do it on a big trackpad. I never really practiced with a track point when I had one, so I was maddeningly imprecise. Having a big touch pad lets me have more room for error on cursor movement. To do that I have to move my hand slightly more to get to the center of the pad. As you said it's subjective.

I have the new DELL XPS 15. WOW I Hate the large trackpad. It’s soooo annoying. I can no longer move my thumb down and back again without random screens flying around due to gestures cos my palm touches the corner.

Giant trackpads are terrible.

I miss my Lenovo nipple.

Macs detect (99% of the time) when you accidentally brush the pad instead of meaning it.

Can only comment from using someone else’s max because the last one I owned was the MacBook Pro Retina when it first came out and it’s trackpad was smaller than the dell but suffered the same problem. However cos it was smaller it happened far less often. But on the newer larger one it does it too. However palm detection is definitely far better than the dell.

That's because Apple does palm rejection correctly. Probably the best in the industry when it comes to any form of touch input.

Honestly, this is just proving my point when I say that non-mac touchpads are terrible. On my Lemur Pro, it the palm rejection was awful, it was so damn annoying how often the cursor would just fly to a different spot while I was typing. Literally has never happened on any of my Macs.

While the palm rejection has failed with me on a MBP. I'm just saying I agree that Palm rejection sucks on non-mac devices and so I have a preference for smaller track pads.

The one on my Lenovo Legion 7 is large, but smaller than the Dell, and the palm rejection is lightyears ahead of the Dell, but still fails. However it doesn't fail enough for me to care because it's so ever slightly smaller than I dont have the bottom of my hand on the corner of the trackpad while typing like I do on the Dell.

> The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures.

My experience is the opposite. My System76 has better gestures than the MacBook it replaced, particularly since the gestures are easily configurable per-app.

A someone that codes and reads code most of the day, matte screen is actually a must for me.

To be fair, I don't even consider apple laptops mainly for this reason.

Could you elaborate or provide a link? (what makes Apple screens less suitable for text work)

"As someone who codes", as if 80%+ of HN user base wasn't coders. Also you can make a screen matte with a screen filter (they are not just good for privacy).

As someone who used to be a big proponent of matte screens, matte finish is largely unnecessary when the screen in question has a combination of high brightness and good antiglare coating.

My personal iMac and work MBP for example are glossy but have 600 nits SDR brightness with great coatings, and so have no issues with glare even in a brightly lit room while I’m using dark mode (which shows reflections more).

That said matte screens can also benefit from high brightness. The 500 nit matte panel in my Thinkpad X1 Nano is excellent.

Unless you are coding in the sun it's not a problem.

And if you are, it is actually easier to see a MacBook Pro screen than the Lemur Pro, because of how dim the backlight was on the Lemur Pro.

Once the fanless M1 air came out, I could not use anything else. I pray the rumored 15 inch M2 air is also fanless with huge battery life and more ports.

My S76 laptop just annoyed me. It was fine for a linux machine, but there was just so many little details, build quality, etc I missed from the mac. I also found a few bugs in their custom pop packages and I reported them. The first engineer that responded was honestly pretty rude and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. A second engineer responded and said in fact one of the things I reported was true and hard to fix unfortunately. About a month later I noticed an update went out that fixed the other thing I reported.

> the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola

It all depends on how you want to use the computer and what are your daily driver apps.

Gnome Shell and KDE are wonderfully polished and work great also with multiple monitors out of the box, XFCE is pretty fast and functional.

About your wife that can't use it? Mine is using Manjaro+KDE since years and never had problems, the switch from then-Windows 7 world was pretty no-brainer. It all burns down on how you approach a new system.

I have a 17" Oryx Pro that I've been using as my daily driver for work. It's basically a luggable, but I mostly love it.

The thing I really miss from my old Apple laptop though is rock-solid suspend behavior. I feel like I can leave my Macbook closed for a week, and it will barely lose any battery life. When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.

Is this due to the weird sleep states in newer Intel CPUs? I read that these are troublesome even on windows.

Aye, I too wish for better suspend. I suspect system76 would also like this. Perhaps when they're big enough they can push the ODMs enough to make it happen.

>When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.

You may be interested in this systemd script I found on the Debian wiki[0] that enables hibernation and power off after a preset amount of time in suspend. I've been using it with my Thinkpads and it works great. Any time I close the lid it goes into suspend then if I don't use the computer for an hour (this is configurable in the script) it happily goes into hibernate.

[0]https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation

It should be noted that jmondi review is talking about the previous model. The one the article is talking about hasn't been out long enough for his post to be about lemp11. That doesn't mean it's changed enough that it's not still valid, but it was a different model of the Lemur Pro (likely lemp10)

I only now realized that lemp10, with regard to my laptop, refers to LEMur Pro and not Duncan Lemp. I had far too high hopes.

Yes yes this is definitely the case. Bought my Lemur Pro in late 2019 and used it until I got my M1 MBp

When I used MacOS I had to spend at least as much time at the command line as I do with Linux. If we are going to rate OS's by how much time is needed at the command line I think Windows is likely to win that battle.

I found MacOS not any more usable or stable than Windows had been on my prior laptop. The hardware was less reliable than the Thinkpad my MacBook Pro replaced and repairs were outrageously expensive. I have switched back to a Thinkpad which recently had Windows replaced by Pop!_OS because as of kernel 5.17 the laptop finally gets similar battery life running Linux as it does Windows. I would never consider a MacBook again.

I honestly cant think of a single thing I've ever needed to drop to the command line to fix on a mac. Maybe changing time machine backup process priority so it would run faster? And that was a want, not a need.

Unless you mean _working from the command line_ rather than fixing issues with the OS from the command line?

> PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I’ve used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it’s money… But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I’m sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola.

I believe your understanding of Linux as a desktop is woefully outdated, by perhaps over a decade. As someone who has to use all 3 big desktop operating systems for work (Linux via Pop!_OS, Windows, and macOS) and has used nearly every iteration of each operating system over the past 2 decades, I don't know how you came to this conclusion. The only area I could see macOS beating out Pop is in UX... if I didn't know how to use a computer and wanted the most frustrating experience available but also didn't know better.

This isn't just my take either - older, completely tech-illiterate family members of mine have tried out various laptops over the years that ran all of the operating systems (adding onto those big 3 OSes, they've also tried ChromeOS), and as of right now, every laptop in my family runs Pop!_OS. When it comes time for them to upgrade their laptops, they specifically ask if I'll be able to setup Pop on their new machines. They do not have to muck around in terminals or anything like that - I setup Pop, teach them how to update it and how to perform the basic tasks they need, and the laptop remains operational for years. Compared to when they were on Windows and macOS, I get significantly fewer support calls throughout the year when they're on Pop.

Not only is macOS UX, security, and performance lackluster compared to Linux, but it's also not even close to being as widely adopted as you claim to make it the "Coca Cola of operating systems". Windows holds that title, and that's solely due to how pervasive Windows is throughout schools and businesses, along with the fact that the vast majority of schools (at least in the US) teach students how to use Microsoft-based software like Office.

Even if I had to use a Macbook (which I would never), Pop would be installed onto it from day 1, or else I'd opt to not use the laptop all together. Even if the Macbook has superior hardware to another laptop, if the Macbook has to run macOS and the other laptop runs Pop!_OS, I'd use the other laptop.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that Linux is an open and free operating system (which again, this is a non-negotiable must-have), whereas macOS is heavily locked down and closed source. Nor does it touch on the fact that modern Linux can play nearly every Windows game with little to no issues and it generally just works 'out of the box' or needs a few applications installed, whereas the same cannot be said for macOS - there's much more work required within the terminal to achieve a lesser, often buggier result.

While I agree with you that the overall build quality of the Lemur Pro isn't as polished as a Macbook (which is why I opted for a Framework laptop recently, in fact) and other physical aspects of the machine like its touchpad, I disagree completely with your assessment of the operating systems. Pop!_OS on a M1 Macbook would be a better experience than macOS on a Macbook.

Pretty much agree, was going to make a similar but shorter comment.

To me it feels like the opposite, Windows is the true Coke Cola just because some things work better and the vast majority of people use it like you suggest, Linux is some fresh Pepsi (to say, I know the other is more popular but I don't care and prefer its unique taste) and macOS is some ok discount cola, which is alright but nothing people should go proud of drinking.

There is absolutely no way that MacOS is the bottom. Sure, 100% Windows is Coke Cola. But a Linux desktop vs a Mac… ask 100 people in the world (not Hacker News) to choose between a Mac and a System76 machine, 97 of them are choosing the Mac.

Doesn’t really change anything re: the review though. I had the Lemur Pro for 2 years and used it as my main coding machine. I used it 8+ hours a day for years. It was a solid machine. I bought it because I refused to buy a Touch Bar MacBook. Once the 14” M1 came out… it was over. The M1 is faster, more reliable, has a longer battery life, a higher resolution and brighter screen, and imo has better software. Sure, free software is great, and I contribute to, and use a boatload of OSS, but a lot of times, you get what you pay for, or not.

Ultimately the experience compared to a 14” MBP is, there is no comparison imo, the MacBook hardware blows it out of the water in all aspects.

I had a Linux desktop running Manjaro circa 2014-2017. From late 2019 - early 2022 I used my Lemur Pro with PopOS full time as my main machine, 8+ hours a day.

I would entirely disagree with the statement that my understanding of linux desktop is out of date. That is, unless you consider using Linux Desktop in early 2022 out of date.

You say that linux is a totally open operating system. Yeah… if you know the command line. That is kinda my point. It isn’t great for people unless they are computer power users. I’ve been a Linux user for almost 2 decades, I’ve tried everything under the sun. I run Linux servers all day every day for work. I know how it is.

Sure… you can get your grandpa to use PopOS by saying “only press this website and email icon and you’ll be fine”, and I agree with that. Give my Lemur Pro to my wife, who can use either Windows or Mac, she would be like “how do I <insert some random thing that she is used to doing on a consumer OS>, and when the answer starts with “open terminal”, she would look at me like I am an insane person.

Mac and Linux are as secure (or not) as you make them. Literally neither one is that much more or less secure than the other one.

If you wanna field calls from your family teaching them how to run a Linux desktop, more power to you. As for me, I’ll be getting my family members a PC or Mac (their choice) and calling it a day.

I bought my dad a System76 desktop 4 years ago and he’s been plugging away ever since with nary an issue. He’s not tech literate. He uses the browser and runs an update every once in a while when prompted. It’s been great. I’m fairly certain he’s never opened the terminal (on purpose).

>> rc cola .. blah blah

Genuine question. Did rc-cola make claim that it is same/close as real cola ? Seem more like taste issue than durian-2-durian compare.

Itching to buy a system76 64gb laptop and let go of mbp (good), and the idiotic lenevo and thinkpad (32gb duds.)

disclaimer — I work mostly console.

Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another relabelled Tongfang laptop, so people really need to blame not OEM, but people who keep buying from them instead of designing own hardware.

Designing a laptop from scratch may be an adventure with a budget close to $200k-$300k, but there are tons, and tons of US brands who can pull this financially. Yet, even the "innovative" Framework laptop is mostly OEM work. It seems no Western brand took risk designing own hardware since nineties.

I've been a privy to Dell's plans for launching a low-end sub-brand for Asia few years ago, before the COVID.

Every contact manufacturer they been considering was exuberant about an opportunity to launch something original under Dell's brand, but Dell's MBAs were horrified of the prospect giving franchisees permission to run own designs: "what if they will make something too good, and compete with our main brand?", "what if they will screw up the design, and degrade our brand?", "how we will square this off with our part suppliers if we will divert them to another party?"

I myself would've eagerly taken an opportunity to spin up my own laptop brand, with original design. It's far, far easier than most these fellows imagine, and certainly shouldn't cost many millions.

The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts. The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.

I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard, case, etc.

Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc)

I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).

It is built for and comes with Windows or no OS, so I'm dubious about it as a Linux platform. AFAICT, you have to be intentional about Linux support due to the 800 lb gorilla in the market.

Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps after a while it'll work.

Linux compatibility for popular distros: https://frame.work/linux

Nice guide, but I've bitter experience with guides vs support.

Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure commands even with the top-line distro, fedora.

From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...)

> If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1"

> sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub"

Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's checking until its released!

> entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts

My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody takes on the design themselves today.

> The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.

With most of that being the cost of buying the reference design, and access to the documentation I believe?

I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back then the docs were freely available with enough good Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.

> Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another relabelled Tongfang laptop,

This is not correct. See elsewhere in the thread. However, its not as custom as Apple, but they're also significantly smaller than Apple.

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