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Comment by cat_plus_plus | Hacker News Reader

US citizens contribute to US greatness by continuing to accept values such as free speech, free market, personal responsibility and limited government. Which in turns drives economic and cultural innovation and provides sufficient tax revenue to pay for defense of other countries that would otherwise be taken over. Many Australian citizens would not have accepted higher risk from COVID in exchange for greater personal freedom for example. Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

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>Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

Nah, I disagree. First, individuals who were educated across the globe, money from across the globe, and access to global resources are all necessary (and a fundamental part of the history) of Silicon Valley's success.

There really is no argument that Silicon Valley-like innovation do occur in distinctly non-free environments. For example; The Soviet Union's part in the Space Race, the current entrepreneurial and technological development in China, the British component of the Industrial Revolution.

Each of these demonstrate scientific innovation in otherwise less-free societies than California. I'm sure there are many more examples if you wanted to extend the historic timeline further.

Not an endorsement of the CCP.

What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian states allow individual creativity out of necessity. Civilian applications like climate studies, GPS and satellite phone/TV are all Western and SpaceX runs circles around government programs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin...

Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects.

I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as innovation. Many US companies only claim to fame is doing the same thing, innovating a process to provide something that was once expensive at a lower cost.

Further, (and once again, I am not in any way pro-China) it is incredibly misguided and the perfect example of my point about US parochialism to dismiss Chinese innovation because you don't think it 'counts' compared to Western innovation.

And lastly, we haven't even explored any of the less extreme examples. Many of the countries in the EU have less of what people in the US identify as makes them 'free' yet it would be simply nonsensical to say that they have not contributed to global modernization through science and innovation.

Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian wines routinely beat French ones in blind tasting tests.

Germany, Japan and South Korea come to mind for important technological advances and Bollywood in India for prodigious high quality artistic output. So US is not everything, but it's part of a pretty small club of hyper innovative countries. What has come out of Russia (country where I was born and raised) recently except bad news? You could get a good education and study science, but visionaries like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would have been smacked down before they could make an impact. They actually had a project that bred foxes into friendly pets to rival cats and dogs. But, good luck getting one in your house.

> point at and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"?

Well first I linked you a whole wikipedia page full of them. Second, I would never ask that question because it is nonsense and any answer given can only be because of confirmation bias. Just because something WAS invented in the US does not mean it could have only been invented under those exact circumstances.

"Recently" is an arbitrary term you are throwing in there to be able to define the timeframe that suits you. If you really believe that the only things Russia has ever produced is "bad news" I think you could really get a lot out of exploring Russian art, literature, design, architecture and technology from any period you like between say 1900-present and I'm certain you will find something innovative.

How does a Wikipedia page improve my life and why do I have to dig into it rather than seeing these innovations around me first hand? As for Russia, remember you are talking to a Russian. Sure Pushkin was pretty good, in early 19th century. What good did you see coming out of Russia in 21st century, which we are almost a quarter into? Lots of things being invented in US suggest that US circumstances are pretty good for inventing and bringing inventions to mass use.

>How does a Wikipedia page improve my life and why do I have to dig into it rather than seeing these innovations around me first hand?

Might as well read: "why do I need research, evidence or information when I could just take anecdote and opinion?"

Because no one cares about your opinion and your anecdotes lead you to draw incorrect conclusions. You have countered precisely 0 of my points because you are conflating opinion with facts.

No, you are conflating theory and practice, innovation entails bringing science and technology to public awareness and benefit. I don't need Wikipedia to know that China is brilliant at gain of function research for viruses, but can't say that I am grateful for the results. German BioNTech and American Moderna mRNA research that lets me go out without worrying about dying from said viruses is much more handy in my daily life. And if Huawei made a robot that washed my dishes and took out my garbage everyday, I would appreciate that too.

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