Former PM Abe Shinzo dies after being shot
www3.nhk.or.jp
www3.nhk.or.jp
RIP Abe, you weren't the greatest but nobody deserves to go that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jo_Cox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_U...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/eu-referendum-nige...
and the Police in France told Nigel Farage his wheel nuts had been loosened following a motorway crash. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/03/nigel-farag...
The bloke who killed the Japanese leader was ex Japanese Navy according to some internet claims.
Having watched the video, its interesting the security/body guards didnt really make much of an effort, so will other politicians including retired politicians around the world be feeling a little less secure?
I find the security/body guard situation interesting with different leaders, you see a big show of force with the US, China & Russia, but European leaders including the Queen of England are much more low key, like Shinzo Abe's.
Does this perhaps demonstrate heightened levels of surveillance in European countries, which then brings privacy claims into play?
I'm well aware of the level of surveillance in the UK, many businesses are involved and filters down into the community, where people see fit for accidents to occur. Many suicides are actually murder, but as the old saying goes, accidents happen!
leave.eu didn't stop campaigning; but that was a UKIP initiative and UKIP are not exactly known for being good sports.
Johnson/Cummings/Gove led initiative "Vote Leave" did stop campaigning.
All of whom have been proven to be colluding, letting the others give an air of plausible deniability to the “gentleman” campaign of Johnson and co.
There’s a middle ground, the US approach of putting your head into the ground unless a donor can benefit financially isn’t necessarily true for the entire world.
Says you. I believe he was one of the greatest PM they have had.
Apparently the Japanese people think so as well because he was the longest serving.
Your entitled to your own opinion, but don't pass it off as fact, and it's not a great time to insert it imo.
But since he did I wanted to give my alternative take as to not leave his opinion unchallenged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abenomics
> IMF affirmed that Japan's nominal GDP contracted by $1.8 trillion during 2012–2015 while real GDP contracted at an annual rate of 6.8 percent[58] in the second quarter of 2014, after the Consumption Tax hike came into effect in April. This fall is the worst since the devastating earthquake and tsunami disaster[59][60] hit Japan in the first quarter of 2011 when the GDP shrank by an annualised 6.9 percent.
So, his economic policy might have been as bad as an earthquake + tsunami.
That said, he was not the only one supporting this policy, and nobody deserves to die for a mistake.
This isn't a defense of Abenomics, but a reminder that Japan has structural problems that can't be easily fixed (unless there's a huge sea-change in public opinion and they start actively trying to attract younger immigrants -- which would be a first-time-ever thing).
This is typical of todays debate in the West, not solve the real issue, instead offer some sort of band aid solution and completely ignore the real issue.
Japanese is a population of about 126 million living on size of Norway, a country of 5.4 million inhabitants.
You have to be far, far more specific. Both real estate and the job markets are already suffocating the average young adult in most developed countries. Your solution proposes to put more pressure on both of those markets, for the sake of another population. Young adults aren't going to see the benefits of this for a long time. Younger generations likely won't for a good while, either.
Additionally, by pumping in more people from outside, you're specifically pressuring skilled workers who put more thought to popping out babies than just doing the deed. There will be some semblance of resentment potential parents feel they can't reasonably have kids in a country already squeezing them things out at the current population size, despite wanting to. You know, the exact same thing happening in most countries today.
Even if Japan doesn't have similar problems with RE, the population isn't exactly waiting for immigrants willing to accept poor work conditions and pressure other candidates to do the same.
>Imo it’s a big reason why the US eventually surpassed Europe
You just going to conveniently skip multiple events leaving Europe in shambles and setting the US up to be in prime position to take over the global economy?
Thus if immigrants already has or adopts the Japanese way of living then child births will still be low.
Or if immigrants have high childbirths then women will not equally participate in the labour market, therefore that family only has one or fewer incomes in a high tax society that is designed for two persons per family taxable income, thus that family will probably be a net loss for tax payers.
> Imo it’s a big reason the US eventually surpassed Europe
When was that?
If I'm reading the stats correctly for Japan
1960 94 million, ~50% labour participation rate for women, ~4 million child births, ~1 million abortions
Today 126 million, ~80% labour participation rate for women, ~800 000 child births, ~150 000 abortions.
No it isn't. It's fairly simple to increase declining birthrates in the west, there just isn't the political will do do what would be necessary to accomplish that (ie: Prohibit female education, abortion, birth control, kill the welfare state, etc...)
"The End of the World is Just the Beginning" has been a great read so far (about halfway through it as of this comment) and the author, Peter Zeihan, dedicates a significant portion of the book to discussing the problem of population decline in-depth.
The point of a government is to support human life. If the system is prefering wealth and control over human life, why bother with it?
The gov is openly failing at it's job to create more families. Which is it's tax paying base.
The point is whether is has more immediate benefits than costs. My sense is that it usually does (immigrant population contributes more economically that what they cost in taxes), at least in the countries I've checked. The exception might be countries that accept a huge amount of refugees (I dunno, just speculating)
If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
Automation is more likely to add rent-seeking to the status quo than improve conditions for society.
The West has got very used to living off cash cows.
The other option is to invest abroad, and repatriate the profit. Which is something else Japan has done, the Chinese are doing, and the West seems to have forgotten how to do.
In other words, colonialism. I wouldn't say the West "has forgotten"; they are still extremely good at it with careful financial engineering, they can operate it without looking like slave drivers.
The problem is there is only so many places you can invest and the west has burned enough bridges where any sovereign nation is incredibly careful when taking money from the west.
> Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retiree?
> It is a discovery, a study of the feedback mechanisms that lead to certain distributions of resources.
the dude probably just was against the American military base that is being built
their government also said they'd ignore the result of a referendum vote, wich emphasis the idea that japan is no longer a sovereign country and instead is an American vassal that's getting used in preparation of the great pacific war
that dude was a military guy, he wasn't a trader
their government also said they'd ignore the result of a referendum vote, wich emphasis the idea that japan is no longer a sovereign country and instead is an American vassal that's getting used in preparation of the great pacific war
that dude was a military guy, he wasn't a trader
Well that certainly won't happen with higher taxes (unless the benefits outweigh the costs for the immigrants). They must get data to build their Laffer curve.
The problem is still the immigration process itself, the (work) culture, and the language. Japan still hasn't made the process as easy as pre-COVID, and it wasn't that easy to begin with pre-COVID.
It's still something I would contemplate at a later stage - I actually enjoy jumping cultures.
It's not that attractive to Westerners if only because wages are low so you can't pay off those student loans.
(Immigrate as in get into the country on a work visa, not as in get permanent residency - that's doable on a "highly skilled professional" visa though.)
I dont think tourists or people on business trips could come in.
That doesn't apply in the real world.
In a floating exchange rate system with a financial system, such as the one Japan has, the currency is essentially a closed system. Yen can't go anywhere else, and you can't use it for anything real outside of Japan.
That means that government spending is matched by the sum of taxation + non-government saving, and it is the spending that causes the taxation and saving, not the other way around.
What the curve says then is that people net save less in the middle of the curve - which generally means they are borrowing too much because they are not earning enough to maintain their standard of living.
Very low birth replacement rates, very strict immigration laws (basically anti-immigration RE: chances at citizenship), long history of nationalistic behavior regarding homegrown consumed goods rather than taking advantage of trade economics of scale, Sony et al being beaten by Intel to the correct Silicon Valley model, and so forth all contribute to contracting GDP quite a bit.
EDIT: This is not to say I think Japan has the wrong idea or whatever; I agree that chasing GDP is not some end-all be-all thing. I'm just saying that while I don't regard Abe as a genius economist, I don't think it's too fair he get a ton of blame either given that his country's demographics, social model, and other factors likely contributed far more towards the inertia of a shrinking economy.
These are all things that Abe’s government and policies strongly supported.
There is more to life than trying to get the made up number that is GDP to print a positive number every quarter.
Japan sits 62nd out of 153 in the 2020 World Happiness Report at a score of 5.871 (range 7.809-2.567, normalizes to 0.63)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2020_re...
Happier than average, but that average includes countries wracked by war, poverty and corruption.
Edit: the 2022 World Happiness Report ranks Japan at 54th out of 146 with a score of 6.039 normalized to 0.67, an improvement, and is now comparable to Mauritius, Uzbekistan and Honduras.
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-...
"Happiness" is subjective, but suicide is as objective an expression of un-happiness as it gets. It's just an icky and emotional topic nobody wants to acknowledge.
I have a good laugh when free shit is used as an indicator of happiness though. Prisoners get free food, education and healthcare. The state will even take your children off your hands. Working is optional. Prison surely must be the happiest place on earth!
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/japans-living-standards-ar...
From an economic standpoint, Japan has a high standard of living. Good medical system, plentiful and cheap food, affordable housing, quality education, few crime and an endless amount of job vacancies.
On the other hand... the air quality has been awful this year..but you cannot have everything perfect in any country.
If you look at the trend you can clearly see the nominal GDP fell back down to trend after a massive spike during the high yen period post-GFC.
I lived in Japan most of that period and no one thought of it as a recession. Unemployment fell to essentially zero, the stock market boomed, the lower yen was welcomed and ultimately “real” (PPP) GDP rose.
There’s a reason Abe was able to serve as PM for so long in a country otherwise notorious for cycling switching leaders.
The economy ACTUALLY only shrank by 0.1% in 2014 but then grew by 0.4%,0.2%,0.5% the following three years, which is actually a lot for Japan.
But the economy is a very basic, essential thing. If it is bad, things are indeed bad for many people, which counts more to them than the great politic.
Johnson would not have to worry about anything, if the UK's economy would be running smoothly. Which it does not and the brexit is basically still unsolved and a great feeling of insecurity remains. This might finally bring him down, not all the scandals.
I can't tell if you aren't aware he resigned or if your meaning here is that you figure Johnson will stand, be re-elected by his MPs and then pretend everything is back to normal, presumably while continuing to leak MPs to both by-election defeats and defections.
I wouldn't put it past Boris to attempt such a thing, but my guess is that it would be humiliating. There are dozens of MPs who'd back Boris in the hope of some reward, but far more see this as a useless cause and want to be first in line for a ministerial job under one of his rivals who might survive a general election.
No, I was not yet of that aware at the time of writing.
He resigned yesterday, he's been brought down. But it wasn't really the economy, I think, as much as people harbouring hopes of being PM getting sick of being made to look idiots by his constantly changing stories.
Didn't he resigned yesterday because of the scandals????
if it was only known after the fact that it was a mistake, then i dont think you can call it a mistake, and cannot have blame placed on those who made the decisions under incomplete information.
Mistakes are by definition only known to be mistakes after the fact. If you know before you do something that it’s going to fail then it is not a mistake.
That's ridiculous - everyone makes decisions under incomplete information - does that mean we can't be blamed for anything ?
But it was not a mistake - it was the outcome of a deliberate process.
> an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong
They could have tried it in a small area beforehand, instead.
This is why, for example, CCP and Putin enjoy popular support: if people’s quality of life has improved, they must be onto something!
Improving %metric% thanks to general development and despite the dictator in power is very much a thing, just as declining %metric% could have been the best possible outcome.
We /assume/ they have popular support, in reality we don't really know.
If anything, the idea that either the Chinese population is unhappy and repressed, or that we can't possibly know what they think, that is an assumption. Or rather, an eternal myth perpetuated by undying stereotypes.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...
> The work began in 2003, and together with a leading private research and polling company in China.
Knowing that studies like this must have government oversight, and that study was performed by a company in China, can you really trust the data of the study?
My point is that we really do not know what is happening in China because we have very little visibility in China. Everything is censored and the CCP tells us what they want us to think.
Now the people could very well be happy, and love the CCP, and not be repressed. But in reality we literally have no idea because anytime anyone speaks out in China its censored.
The Harvard survey was anonymous. Or do you think they're lying and they secretly recorded every participant's personal information so that they can punish them to answering wrong? If so then why did 4% answer unsatisfied? Did they have a death wish? Have all those people been jailed? And why was satisfaction rate for lower governments much lower? Won't those people get into trouble with e.g. the local police department or the mayor?
I base this on discussions I had with people from both countries (numerous in real life, as well as some online, including here), there are enough anecdata points for me to form this opinion.
Most likely you were just in a community with people who are unhappy about China. I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. Those from Taiwan or who were born here are a mixed bag.
That's an odd take considering Japan's economy has been contracting for 25 years. Can you be specific on how his economic contractions was different than those those before (or after) him?
- Demographic crunch, as mentioned. The country not descending into uncontrolled decline may already been a decent achievement
- Focus on quality. This is unique to Japan and runs counter capitalist growth stories. Japanese consumers value quality. a lot. But it’s bad for business in the growth sense, you don’t need to buy a new fridge for 10-15 years because it works and isn’t made obsolete artificially, Japanese consumers are happy, growth : consumption metrics are not.
Quality is just not captured as a variable in the western / American way of looking at economic health. Not having train delays, having great customer service, no forced obsolete products, high reliability in services and products are not reflected / incentivized in that model - they don’t exist but that’s not how Japan works.
Japan has issues, quite a few, but it’s not nearly the hellhole American economic publications love to make it out for decades now. It may be a nightmare scenarios for the get rich quick dudes with US MBAs, but quality of life is pretty decent for a country this far down the demographic curve.
We can only really judge how they fared when America enters that demographic slope.
I don't think you get assassinated for economic policies (unless you really impoverish a large section of the population). I think it's more likely he got assassinated for some fairly random loony reason by someone unhinged or for his non-economy related right wing policies (e.g. on defense and foreign policy).
Japan's economy is in shambles.
A currency is a tool of the economy controllable by a central bank, not a competition (otherwise everyone would d shoot for high deflation).
The instantaneous exchange rate between two currencies does not give any information about the strength or weakness of the economies that operate on those currencies.
https://nitter.cz/yamaneko2011/status/1545297780562096128
The guy straight up walks behind him but misses the first shot. Keeps walking but Abe turns around and then the 2nd shot hits him point blank
It's the case in most developed countries I believe.
What the hell did he shoot him with it, a relic musket from a Sengoku Jidai display? I don't think I've ever seen or heard anything like that outside of military battle reenactments, with all that smoke it sounds like a cannon more than a gun.
Abenomics would always end up this way, Japan has been facing an ACTUAL existential crisis since the end of the bubble era. You know you messed up when you made these people go from Karoshi to assassination.
A lot of microphones do a very poor job of capturing the sound, and even the best recordings can't capture just how loud guns can be.
But judging by the clip, the projectile didn't go supersonic, just based on the sheer power of it (Abe collapsed instantly). You could get hit a dozen times with a small energy projectile and still stay standing (for a couple of seconds at least).
In this scene, set in a utopian, crime-free society (at least on the surface), a woman is beaten brutally in a public square in front of a large crowd. The people in this crowd just... stand and watch. They get their phones out and record it.
It is reasoned by one of the main characters that they act this way because they simply cannot process what is going on. The concept of this happening is so divorced from the reality they live in, it provokes little to no fear/horror/disgust/whatever response in them.
IIRC UK encourages that if you can't help - that's in order to track down perpetrators.
I imagine ordinary people (even most police) aren't legally able to carry a gun in Japan. Simply watching and recording is about all they can do in that scenario.
An assassination by gunfire in a country where gun deaths don't happen is the perfect excuse for rubbernecking.
For instance if the smoke came from something bursting because of a starting earthquake, avoiding the surrounding building and regrouping in a clear zone would be the right course of action.
I guess "ghost gun" violence like this will become more normal in countries with restrictive gun laws as societies break down when the effects of climate change are really felt.
I'd much rather be in a low-gun apocalypse than a high-gun one. Because I can run away from a guy with a knive, but not from a gun.
Also, what I never understood: no matter how many guns I carry, I still die to a single bullet in the back. So why should I feel saver in a high-gun environment?
https://nitter.cz/pic/media%2FFXH24fkWYAAZTTm.jpg%3Fname%3Do...
https://nitter.cz/pic/media%2FFXH24y9XoAITMIM.jpg%3Fname%3Do...
https://nitter.cz/pic/media%2FFXH25G7WYAI8o2D.jpg%3Fname%3Do...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#...
How the UK police dealt with a machete-wielding individual:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-...
Shootings are pretty rare in the developed world.
He doesn't have any power anymore right? Just a pure revenge thing? A powerful group sending a warning message to the current PM?
Other than that, who knows. I'm sure that various US politicians like Nixon and Reagan still have enemies even though they are both long since in the ground.
He was generally anti foreigners, anti equal rights.
He was a member of the crazy nationalist cult Nippon Kaigai that wants a return to the prewar status of the godly emperor and profess Japanese Yamato's pure race superiority. Look that up.
Wikipedia :
"Shinzo Abe [0] was affiliated with the openly ultranationalist organization Nippon Kaigi (Japan Conference). He was considered a right-wing populist and ultra-conservative within the LDP, and some media and books referred to him as a far-right politician. According to Professor Dominique Tasevski, his legacy can be defined by nationalism, historical revisionism, and a deterioration in Japan-South Korea relations."
"Nippon Kaigi [1] believes that "Japan should be applauded for liberating much of East Asia from Western colonial powers; that the 1946–1948 Tokyo War Crimes tribunals were illegitimate; and that killings by Imperial Japanese troops during the 1937 Nanjing Massacre were exaggerated or fabricated". The group vigorously defends Japan's claim in its territorial dispute over the Senkaku Islands with China, and denies that Japan forced the "comfort women" during World War II. Nippon Kaigi is opposed to feminism, LGBT rights, and the 1999 Gender Equality Law."
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinzo_Abe#Political_positions...
These are matters of nationalism and affect forward looking geopolitical outcomes.
Following WWII, a tribunal was held in Tokyo along the lines of trying German war criminals. You can imagine how celebration of what others perceive to be German war criminals could lead to conflict.
This event can be used in multitude of forms for a multitude of results by a multitude of people.
Apparently he was "dissatisfied" with Abe and wanted to kill him.
"Earlier, it was reported that the suspect decided to kill Abe because he disagreed with his policies.
According to the NHK, the police now say that Yamagami told investigators he had a grudge against Abe and decided to kill him."
https://www.jantakareporter.com/entertainment/who-is-shinzo-...
is trending on Twitter Japan: "#We want democracy, not violence"
Reading through history books I had thought, wow what crazy times - A Global pandemic (Spanish Flu), revolutionary technology (Aeroplane, etc.), Killing of influential people and then war.
We are halfway there and signs don't look good. Am I being too pessimistic?
Uhm, you are mixing facts a bit: aeroplane came before WWI; the shooting of an archduke started WWI, but the flu only arrived at the end of the war.
Edit-to be clear, this is a good moment to reflect on the tendencies towards war in the current era. It's the time to push back. Certain forces are clearly pumping out "accelerating" propaganda via the internet. Those same forces clearly have territorial disputes in mind along with global aspirations. The time to counter them is now, before WWIII fully ignites.
Of course when it comes to nukes the dark reality is that everyone has to be successful at not using one (because then they are all used) every single day for eternity. That seems impossible and an eventuality.
We are in the denial phase. Next comes panic, and then desperation.
when there's a terrorist attack, "don't let them win, don't be afraid", and now you're saying people should be afraid?
I work with an old guy who set out to make his own "shotgun" when he was 9. He took a piece of plumbing pipe with an end cap, drilled two holes near the end for the electrodes (pencil lead), and then packed it with a few hundred match heads and some BB's. He ran wire from the electrodes to his safety spot behind a berm, and touched it off with a battery. It blew apart his target, and he said the smoke could be smelled across the entire farm.
If a 9 year old could figure it out in the 1950's, I'm sure an adult, hell bent on murder, could figure it out today.
Looks very improvised indeed.
You can see the battery here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXH0s0YXoAAehab?format=jpg
https://japantoday.com/category/crime/Ex-PM-Abe-shot-from-be...
Japan is a country with an abysmally low voter turnout.
So, it may be a consequence of this (cultural?) issue that dissatisfied people don't think of using their vote to change the system, and feel they are only left with violent means.
PS: I'm not trying to justify this murder, of course I'm horrified of it. But I'm saying that the actions to take in order to lower the probability of recurrence of this kind of tragedy includes pushing more people to go participate to ballots.
Sure the guy is "nuts, unhinged" or whatever, but I get that you might be onto something, how on earth is change possible in Japan with such a dominant force in power. It's so dominant it feels like bullying towards younger people who most policies aren't geared towards helping.
Even the fact it's so hard to get mental healthcare is part of failing government policy.
Sadly, I know that for sure, no one will ever question anything, it will hardly be discussed and the guy will be executed as soon as possible. It will be busy as usual.
do we really know already?
America has very high rates of violent crime, and because of that, assassinating a former president would be really difficult.
Source for this assertion? Just Japan's page alone has more assassinated politicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Assassinated_Japanese...
"levels of gun crime" is an irrelevant metric here. It was not even an actual gun (which probably illustrates how hard it must be to find a firearm in Japan).
I mean... I seems like a real gun to me.
Even after this happen - they decide to tackle him! They don't know he's not wearing a suicide belt or has more shots to fire. The whole thing is just stupid. Head will roll.
If a meteoroid suddenly crashed in front of your car while you were driving, would you switch off the engine & inspect the paintjob & fenders? Probably not. It's a situation which you know can happen statistically but you're not prepared to respond in a flash.
In that sense, they would be more on the lookout for a knife attack or some physical assault instead of guns. Things needing proximity. The possession of firearms in Japan is very strictly controlled.
Edit: my dad in his early career worked in counterterrorism ops. He would be prepared to deal with someone bearing a firearm, but would I blame him for a lapse if a person came prepared with nerve agent? probably not.
That's not the relevant distinction.
The relevant distinction is that Abe was assassinated by a Japanese national, not by a foreign national, so in this instance there will be no catalyst for escalation and payback.
We're talking about a long-time head of state whose entire chest cavity was blown to pieces. Eviscerated.
By an assassin, no less, and with a homemade shotgun in one of the worlds strictest countries w.r.t. to guns.
Is this not worth mourning?
I ask my fellow Americans in near disbelief: have you become so desensitized that this news does not move you?
RIP Shinzo Abe
I learned it the hard way that politics is getting to be a taboo topic slowly. (And criticizing politicians too). Why engage in sharing something which leads to heartburn? Discussing here is venting. It doesn't change anyone's viewpoint really.
Some may argue that "in the spirit" of HN's scope of curiosity & knowledge sharing, this is OT - but at the same time there are political issues being posted everyday. Its a hit or miss that the post/comment gets downvoted or flagged. I would generally want to post objectively without using any personal opinions.
As a Japanese resident, its a dark day for all of us. As someone aware of Abe's gray side, I am very opposed to several of his political positions - but assassination doesn't improve anything. Its a despicable violent act. Plus, it suddenly brings the whole question of security angle in Japanese society. Guns are rare & violent crimes more so. Things evolve very quickly as kneejerk reaction in Japan. In US people are more sensitized to shootings - but several countries don't experience it, and do not know how to react to it. That's Japan's dilemma in the coming days. I expect lot of insensible security measures slowly getting in place because of this event.
Japanese are risk-aware, gentle people today. The shock is palpable everywhere. Condolences are due where they should be. So yeah, its a dark day in general for the country & thank you for empathizing with them who feel the loss.
Who, in your opinion, would it be more correct to mourn at this time?
Though I think Taiwan would like him as he's one of the best in the area at resisting China's invasion threats.
The Taiwanese, like most of Asia, are also not fond of Japanese war criminals or their supporters.
Btw I don’t appreciate personal insults, especially when you pair them with weak arguments.
Abe was very pro-japanese, straight and honest politician. And very uncomfortable for the West.
> I ask my fellow Americans in near disbelief: have you become so desensitized that this news does not move you?
Not desensitized, but infantilised beyond belief, including here on HN.
The encouragement to run away, and shelter from "scary world" and outrage produced people who cannot hold a serious adult conversation about war, death, and personal duty for longer than a few minutes.
You either get completely emotionally deaf types like the top poster, or, on the opposite, types who outright descend into hysteria.
RIP Abe.
0: https://twitter.com/kumashirokeishi/status/15452542838508298...