School’s out for summer and many teachers are calling it quits
wsj.com
wsj.com
To me it seems absurd not to know your teachers first name.
I rarely see kids out and about at all these days, and if they are, I never see them interacting with adults other than buying take-away. It’s a bit concerning, really.
Same in US. I have been out of school for a long time, but this was definitely was not something you did without consequences.
It goes double when stationed in a foreign country. Officers and their families were required to behave as guests there.
Source: I'm an Air Force brat.
And yet teachers are chronically underpaid and underappreciated.
Don't overstate your case.
Public school teachers get likely the best benefits package of any profession.
Teacher pay in the Seattle area is up into the 6 figures.
As for military officer pay, it's enough to finance a lower to middle class lifestyle.
If I read https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Ce... correctly then indeed experienced non-supervisory teachers may make over $100K/year.
But if you're really considering the maximum, then military officer pay is up into the $200K range, says https://www.federalpay.org/military#officer .
If "6 figures" is supposed to be average or median, https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/public-scho... says "The average Public School Teacher salary in Seattle, WA is $60,126 as of June 28, 2022, but the range typically falls between $50,222 and $73,312", with the 90-percentile at $85K.
https://www.seattleschools.org/departments/finance/Budget/cu... says :
> For the 2021-22 school year, a teacher in Seattle Public Schools costs approximately $131,525. This includes base salary, time responsibility incentive (TRI), contract days, tech days, medical, and other benefits.
> Specific details include: Average Salary Total: $79,673 / Medical insurance: $12,212 / Other Benefits, and Payroll & Pension Taxes: $39,640 / Total Cost: $131,525
So that's 6 figures if you include all benefits.
But military officers also have other benefits besides salary, like VA services for life, housing, and commissary access.
As for "best benefits package of any profession", ... really? Better than, say, college president?
And all those benefits come from at most $51,852/year on average?
We software developers ("The average Software Developer salary is $70,497 as of June 28, 2022, but the salary range typically falls between $62,812 and $78,654." - https://www.salary.com/research/salary/recruiting/software-d...) have a higher salary than Seattle-area teachers.
Why are our benefits worse, and what can we do to make them better?
Software developers don't get pensions for life, for example.
> college president?
Are there "entry level" positions for college presidents? Of course not. It's not really considered a category of profession.
Because I am unable to find a source for total benefits for software developer. Microsoft, as another Seattle-area company, offers 50% matching contributions to 401(k), stock and cash bonuses, child daycare accounts, life insurance, public transit card, and more. But other companies will differ.
Do you have any better numbers? You must have some idea, in order to judge that software developers have worse benefits than Seattle public school teachers.
A lot of government employees get pensions like public school teachers do, so what else do teachers have which makes it likely the best benefits package of any profession? What am I missing?
Since stock options, 50% matching to 401(k), etc are worse than what teachers get, what do software developers need to do to get a piece of that sweet pension benefit?
Negotiate better? Start a union? Get laws passed? Start online discussions about the poor benefits in software development?
What additional benefits do teachers get that make them so special?
Nothing stands out when I compare the teacher pension and state patrol pension at https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/ .
Military officer pay is up into the 6 figures. Their pension is "monthly annuity for life after 20 years of service. The annuity is based on a calculation of 2% per year served." (https://www.usa.gov/military-pay ) which is what TRS-2 does (https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/trs2/ ) for Washington teachers. Plus veterans get VA access and other benefits.
I don't see what makes teachers' benefits so special.
"Thinkable" in science fiction, yes -- but not as something that could emerge, full force, in actual day-to-day reality.
I don't understand this sentence. I'm from Germany but I don't remember a single time I've had any kind of one-on-one input from any teacher. Been a while that I went to school, but even if I take all my Hollywood High School impressions as fact.. our school system is just so different - my time at school was 8am to 1pm for most of my 13 (regular) years.
If I follow your reasoning none of us Germans was ever compelled to anything. I'd say it's totally possible to form a bond with teachers (or vice versa) - maybe it's more about smaller class groups (as we have in the last 2 years, only 10-15 people instead of the usual 25-30)
// edit: This is not about your overall point here, but I feel this is a key argument that is worth debating on its own
I have several friends and family members who work in education. They've fielded their share of complaints over the years. And when it comes to what's covered in the classrooms the kinds of angry complaints they field are almost always over stuff mandated by either the administration or a state-level standard. And when they (very politely) inform parents that they're required by law to learn about <some thing> you'd think the parents would be like "Oh my god that's terrible! I'm going to write my state rep right away!" NOPE - they just double down and seem to think its within the teacher's purview to eschew state requirements.
And the kind of stuff that parents find objectionable isn't even the stuff you're thinking - like maybe evolution, slavery, civil rights etc. Nope. One parent was upset her daughter had to learn that the US civil war was extremely bloody and demanded to know why this sort of "macabre information" was part of the unit as dwelling on such things does not prepare kids for college.
For the former, parents of means will elect for private school. Parents of lesser means will either stretch for private school, or homeschool.
For the latter, I am at a loss of what will happen. Perhaps a lost generation.
It's actually mixture of helicopter parents who are EXTREMELY invested in their kids education and troubled kids whose parents treat school like a daycare/repair shop for their kids that are the problem. A pox on both their houses etc etc
These folks confuse me, e.g. if they are that particular/knowledgeable/opinionated/demanding - then they should homeschool or tutor their kid themselves. Especially if we're talking public schools, they aren't paying some top dollar private school where they can demand some tuned experience for their child.
Home schooling is off the table for a lot of these parents as they're most likely both working professionals with demanding jobs OR they recognize they're not going to do a good job educating their kids past a certain level.
Private school might be off the table because the local public schools might have a better reputation than any nearby private. Why pay more to get less?
These are the people that have me shaking my head when they then are so opinionated about the curricula though.
I didn't take it to the school though because they were stuck in the middle of a state mandate and pissed off parents. I just helped my kids differentiate some of the more fundamental methods from helps/shortcuts (like sections on estimation).
PG tweeted data/commentary about childcare recently and there was a bit saying that for some brackets of society, dedicated care at home was most effective. But for some brackets, the children were better off in group childcare.
IMO, we should be grouping tasks by those which require a trained teacher and those which can be done by a trainee or some sort of clerk. There are surely tasks like preparing curriculum for remote learning, or marking (my mum was a teacher and as a teenager, I used to mark work for her), etc that could be done by an assistant split across multiple classes or a trainee. Or could be done remotely even. Spread the workload and ensure that the key interface between teacher and students gets the teacher's full time and attention.
- Low pay. For STEM fields, you can easily make far more in industry.
- Decreasing resources and investment from the community.
- Decreasing freedom in what you teach and how you choose to teach it.
- Half of parents see you as a babysitter, and the other half sees you as the only obstacle between their child and Harvard.
- High scrutiny of your actions. What you do outside of working hours can affect your job (e.g. having a drink at a bar or posting on Facebook). In our polarized society, anything that's slightly political could cost you your career.
- If you're male, expect heavier scrutiny. People will always suspect that you could be a child predator.
- Fear of school shootings.
EDIT:
And I almost forgot:
- A society where somewhere between 20-50% of people are skeptical of your value and unhappy with your profession today.
So in that sense, they are net negatives in that they cause greater inequality. And inequality lessens the economic efficiency of capitalism and markets.
There is even an enclave within the enclave that carves out a single medium density housing complex. Can't have the unwashed masses using any of THEIR community resources.
https://www.sunsetvalley.org/home/showpublisheddocument/8/63...
Some cities, typically pre-war ones, are an exception, like New York or Chicago. But many pre-war cities (Baltimore, Philly, etc.) are carried by their surrounding suburbs.
Aren't these tech companies all there to do government services contracting? Seems more like DC is providing industry / jobs to Virginia
I have 3 kids. I am pretty wealthy, even though people richer than me complain on this site about money. I do not have enough dollars to give my kids private schooling. At that point it is very disappointing to read schools consume 42000 per kid on average, per year. With that money, I could give all 3 kids a full private education, easy.
Meanwhile I have regular conflicts with teachers, that tend to boil down to 3 things: the kids have been seriously unfairly treated and eventually reacted strongly (although all 3 are girls, they do fighting sport for a long time), they were confronted with drugs (this is when I get mad at schools. Yes, we're talking primary school), or what the teachers are telling them is obvious bullshit, clear even to them (for example, one conflict was about Madagascar being in Italy). The teachers and the school treat us as enemies (with a few, very nice, much older, exceptions). They have called youth services on us, because of what we eventually found out are financial reasons (for them).
Meanwhile it is getting worse every year, by a lot. Most recently, parent teacher conferences are now only in group (meaning all parents that care to come at once), ONCE a year.
I am half tempted to ask my kids to beat up some random kid just so we'd actually be able to have a talk with a teacher ABOUT OUR KID. JUST ONCE. (again, with 2 very big exceptions that are individual teachers doing better)
Point is, the education in this school is bad ... and getting worse all the time. Homeschooling, of course, is not allowed here.
So I, as a parent, have a huge problem: 1) I cannot give my kids quality education, just don't have the money 2) I pay MORE for the bad education they get than I would pay for private education 3) There is an extreme discrepancy in the quality of education for my kids (one of those positive individual exceptional teachers is the teacher of ONE of my daughters) 4) I am treated as the enemy for bringing up very reasonable problems 5) I am treaded as the enemy by school management since I suggested one of our daughters be changed classes because she has the worst teacher 6) one teacher hates my daughter ... because I demand she get some real education after hours (mostly Khan academy)
FIVE, I have a dilemma. The private school has offered a scholarship for my eldest daughter, which the other ones probably won't get (doesn't make it free). Do I give her this opportunity, knowing I can't replicate it for my other kids, or do I deny it to her?
I could have moved outward and away into more rural Maryland, but then that would create a 90+ minute commute each way.
Americans have to stop seeing differences and fighting petty political fights and pointing fingers.
My point is simply that police has been a respected pillar of society. Police falling out of favor has very real consequences. When people do not trust police they turn to others for protection and justice.
and probably the best benefits package anywhere.
(At least in the country I live)
Talking about low pay without consideration of the considerable value of the benefits package is seriously misleading.
Health care is gold for "health care providers", NOT the person receiving the services. I've a submission about how health insurance pays for the most expensive medical interventions possible, but not for things people actually need: meals, transportation, etc.
Which Interventions Can Be Paid For: The Explanatory Power of “Prasad’s Law” (hcrenewal.blogspot.com) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21728864
1000% not true in every state or district. Not even close.
The teachers I know barely make enough to live alone even after years and having multiple degrees. If they do they have to be thrifty about it.
God forbid they have an unexpected big expense.
I’ve seen the raise schedule. It’s basically peanuts for a very long time. Pay might be ok after 15 years, but that’s a lot of sacrifice. And assumes low inflation/no new contract ruining things.
Everything about the job seems to suck. But 80% of it seems like the parents. Between those they treat the teachers and how many don’t control/discipline their kids making the teachers life miserable… this isn’t going away.
I'm also aware that Europe allows the US to spend a lot of money for the defense of Europe and much of the world.
I did neglect to mention that the pension for life for WA teachers starts at 20 years of service. Isn't a working life 20 to 65? How sustainable can an economy be if a career is 20 years, while society supports you for the other 65 years?
That would be public safety, not public education, usually. By a fairly enormous margin. Teachers probably have better benefits than the average private sector worker, but not outstanding among either public sector workers generally or knowledge workers generally (though, relative to salary, probably outstanding for the latter category.)
In my local district they didn’t have enough bus drivers this years and they had to double the pay to keep the ones they had.
Is that a net loss or in individuals? You'd expect more than 1.5% to leave in a given year just from retirement.
This is a school system where every classroom has a $20k smart board ( at time ourchased) yet less than 1 in teachers seem to know how to use them.
At the same time we're constantly fed the low pay for teachers rhetoric as a prelude to increasing funding while both the median and mean incomes for teachers are well above the state averages.
I do know teachers I respect which go well above and beyond the minimum for thwir students. Sadly they're the exception rather than the rule.
At any point in your life, did you find yourself thinking "I should be a teacher?" and then not dismiss that thought based on pay?
Have you considered that the "smart board" or whatever might simply have been a very poor classroom investment?
Is there evidence these smart boards actually add anything to the classroom? How many resources need to get diverted to manage these things, provide training, etc.
"I am an early childhood teacher of 20+ years and I have recently cut back to 2 days a week. I do another "normal" job on the other days now. The BS that goes along with the job now is ridiculous and getting worse all the time. It takes away from actually teaching kids and doing the job I used love. At the same time the pressure to "bump up" the grades is ever growing. I will never go back to full-time teaching again and hope to quit altogether..."
> gun violence
> COVID-19
> masking policy debates
> political battles over what teachers can or can't discuss or teach in the classroom
Parents blame teachers, admin blame teachers, what a shock some teachers are quitting
Education is the single best tool humans have invented for progressing knowledge and solving social issues.
But the current education systems in the US are pretty bad though, from what I've read.
You also missed the part of the cycle that blames parents. The bureaucratic nature of modern school, lack of proper incentives or completion are the fertilizers of mediocrity.
Same parents: trust those same teachers implicitly with firearms to protect their kids from shooters wielding the AR-15s that they refuse to restrict or ban.
We have teachers who are under assault from forces beyond their control from parents, from politicians, and from nuts with military weaponry while their wages have largely remained stagnant and outstripped by the cost of living. Meanwhile, we live in an administrative fantasy land where somehow schools need a dozen assistant principals and superintendents who literally could not find a job outside of academia are pulling in $300K+ even from poor districts.
They'd get far more traction, at least about school security, if they banded together and told parents that their kids are getting thrown into hallways the second they hear an active shooter is on campus. We can have ten dozen shootings and nothing will change, but have one where it's the kids that are the human shields and people will suddenly find that spark of common sense that has long been abandoned.
Teachers to get to face the real possibility of being shot. But they don’t get body armor like some other professions. In fact almost nothing gets done. Shootings go up. Odds go up. Teachers have to take it.
COVID-19 comes. States or administration close the schools. Kids disappear, but teachers are supposed to know why. Kids ignore lessons or disrupt things and learning suffers, teachers get yelled at. They were never trained for this but do their best and get yelled at. Kids should be in school! Teachers fault. Kids should be at home, it’s too dangerous! Yell at the teacher.
Masks are required. They shouldn’t be. They’re dangerous. They’re annoying. They’re ineffective. They’re Democrat theater. Kids won’t follow policy. Yell at the teachers. Masks are no longer required. This is dangerous. Billy could die. Yell at the teacher. Should have closed the school again. Yell at the teacher.
I’ve seen some of my local school board meetings in the last two years. It’s a disaster of screaming at the poor representatives. Then some of those people ran and got seats and now things are even more contentious. And that was just over masking/closing. Haven’t even started on what to teach/how.
People yell at the board. People yell at the admins. EVERYONE yells at the teachers. There’s more of them and they’re easier to get ahold of. You know who they are. They’re (nominally) in charge of your kids class. So just like fast-food workers or customer support people everyone takes things out on them.
There are tons of other problems that have existed since before the pandemic that still exist. There are other pandemic related problems GP didn’t mention.
If there are any teachers left in two years it will be a miracle.
For one this isn't a matter of scale, most school systems are enormous and structured like most large bureaucracies. Which is the root of the problem.
And related classic to enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWVMr-RpMM :)
>rode memorization in there beginning for foreign language studies
that is how i was taught English, and that loses orders of magnitude on all metrics to how for example Russian immigrant children of my friends naturally picked the language upon coming here. Technology provides a lot in the direction of such an opportunity without actually needing to physically visit the foreign country.
>The kids at that age lack discipline and a lot of subjects start it quite boring (basic reading and spelling, math doesn't get fun to several years in ...) ... Many kids will find ways to distract themselves from that without supervision.
Couple things come to mind:
- one can imagine something like competitively organized quests in Minecraft built around knowledge to learn
- FB spent enormous resources of how to turn people into dopamine monkey. May be some of that or similar research can be utilized here to provide for children focus on the learning. Status update broadcasted across the class "Alice just learned a new formula worth 5 shiny stars".