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Comment by auggierose | Hacker News Reader

I've been warned before by dang here on this site not to spew Anti-American propaganda (that was pre Jan 6, I think), but I never did such a thing. When I studied in SF in 1999, I freaking loved it. But I've seen some things since that are deeply troubling. It seems more people are catching up now to what I observed: if you still think that the US is a modern western democracy with reasonable values, wake up. I mean, people hunting other people who need an abortion for $10K? How can you read that and not have a cold chill running down your spine?

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> if you still think that the US is a modern western democracy with reasonable values, wake up

One of the quirks, and ongoing debates, of the US is the strong deference to states’ rights. Don’t confuse US law with Texas law. The majority of the population of the United States actually lives in states with abortion laws that are more liberal than what you’d find in the EU, for example.

The state versus federal distinction can be very confusing to people who view US politics through the lens of the worst news stories that come out of every state. The entire US has a land mass and population on the same order as that of the entire EU, and many states have populations similar to that of individual EU countries. We have a single state (California) that has an economy larger than all of the UK combined and almost as large as India.

The United States is big and diverse. We’re going through a phase where federal power is being reduced due to politics and some of the states are doing weird stuff. If you only view the US through news stories and imagine the US as a conglomeration of all of the worst and weirdest news stories from individual states, you’re going to have a very negative view of the US in general.

This kind of reasoning is exactly the problem that the US faces. "It's not really that bad, it's just a few silly states, overall we do know better". First, Texas is a pretty big state, too. You cannot just discount it as not mattering to the overall picture. Second, you are ONE country, you have ONE president. And what the majority of Americans think, doesn't seem to matter when it comes to the law, or to elections. Keep telling yourself that's it's not that bad because it's so diverse, and soon it will be much less diverse than you can imagine right now.

Well said. Definitely agree that it’s a ridiculous to say “well those other states aren’t that big of a deal.”

For the 4.5 million of us in Louisiana, the current laws are a pretty huge deal. But according to him we apparently don’t matter when having a national dialogue.

For the 4.5 million of us in Louisiana, the current laws are a pretty huge deal.

Yes, but the idea that those laws are being imposed on an unwilling population by an extremist minority is wrong. Half of Louisiana residents believe abortion should be illegal in most or all cases (https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_4973b4e...), and many in the other half likely support restrictions that weren't allowed under Roe/Casey. This is what democracy looks like, and an example of how democracy isn't always a good thing.

The margin of error is 5.8% I.e. the majority could also be in favor of abortion access. And even if we concede most want it gone, a slim majority does not in any way mean it should be denied to other people. We also need to define “most,” that’s a bad phrasing of the question IMO. For instance, we banned in cases of rape or incest. I’m sure plenty of people who are otherwise against it make a provision for that, but the question makes no distinction about some of those more divisive situations.

The GOP controls this state in a wildly disproportionate way. They passed it because of that, not because of a possible slim majority. We’d have legalized weed if that’s all it took.

> Second, you are ONE country, you have ONE president.

We also have fifty governors, 100 senators, 435 house reps, nine supreme court justices, and countless state legislators. We do not live in a dictatorship. Yet.

Of these, it's the court that has changed most wildly over the past 8 years.

> soon it will be much less diverse than you can imagine right now.

I think it's possible to say "overturning Roe v. Wade didn't make abortion illegal in California, as your worst case presumption might assume" and still believe that GOP gerrymandering, Supreme Court appointments, and attempted coups are an existential threat to majority rule.

Of course nuance is important when thinking about solutions to the problem. But if a substantial portion of the country (I don't know, is it 30%?) is basically not democratic anymore, you better be quick with coming up and implementing a solution. And how exactly is a solution to look like then without a civil war?

As a point of clarity, those state laws are all passed by democratically elected representatives. Gerrymandering may impact outcomes, but Ds are every bit as good at it as Rs. For example, Oregon's legislative districts are comically gerrymandered by Democrats.

So you’re saying diversity of opinions is a threat to diversity?

Yes. Certain opinions you cannot allow to exist if you want your democracy to continue to function.

Incorrect. There is no such act as "not allowed to exist". Instead, rather than attempt to bury what is spontaneously manifest, we ought lift these bolstered options up and publicly demonstrate to all how they are torn asunder.

Not allowed to exist is an unfortunate formulation. Marvin above said it better.

Unlimited tolerance must not be extended to the aggressively intolerant, because this will destroy the unlimited tolerance. Central philosophical principle of free society. Karl Popper.

Popper was specifically referring to levels of intolerance that cause people to move from the world of discussion to the world of physical force.

That is, per Popper, tolerating people who will physically harm you as part of the discussion means a discussion cannot be meaningfully held at all.

But people really like to stretch this to whatever edge-case meaning of "intolerant" would be convenient to them at the time...

Well, the law certainly represents physical force.

Sorry to be overly pedantic but India is many times bigger than California. It's around 40% of the size of the US.

GP is talking about the size of economy, not the area of land.

That's clunky grammar then. It's not trivial to context-switch and even use the same word 'large' for it: "We have a single state (California) that has an economy larger than all of the UK combined and almost as large as India." I think it's ambiguous at best.

The people in those states are your fellow citizens. If you don't care about their well being, then you might as well split now. What exactly makes you United besides a cultish devotion to your origin story and a self image of Freedom Loving that hasn't matched reality since your independence.

The freedom for individual states rights you espouse has always been used for almost exclusively civil right violations.

If you don't do something about that, you are complicit. Now you might say there is nothing you CAN do about it.

But that is the problem. That is WHY the rest of the free world looks at you and says "You are not a democracy."

Because you couldn't change this even if you wanted to.

The last time you tried you came close. You had to fight a war over it but you almost got there. Then you fucked it up during the Reconstruction.

I’ve spend four years in IL and consider them among the happiest in my life

The US right now is a fucking shitshow. It’s one bad election away from being yet another gunslinging theocracy hating women and gay people. They’d probably switch sides and bomb Ukraine, without necessarily looking at a map.

Well if Trump or his followers get the top seat again, Ukraine, and with it half of Europe is fucked. He was pretty clear about that.

With this, steep decline in US power projection is inevitable, I mean you can't lose half a billion big rich western population almost 100% aligned with your values.

You say that but where are they going to align themselves to? China? The US benefits by having a lack of good competition. Things would have to get extremely bad for the rest of the west to dump the US. Word on the street is that Trump is going to announce a run for 2024 as a way to get ahead of his rivals. He has a reasonable shot at winning barring unforeseen circumstances. You can't dismiss the odds given how incredibly poorly the Democrats have messed up their two years since taking office.

I feel that if given another Trump win, the rest of the west will be forced to remain in another holding pattern for four years and suffer whatever consequences occur hoping that four years later things improve.

On the short term that sounds about right. Still I would guess that if the EU and US relations would go from more of a culture friendship to a strict transactional nature that would have big consequences. The EU would try to be more self sufficient and for one import less from the US. The EU would probably try to find closer relations to countries with semi big military, totally guessing here India, South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey. NATO would of course start to look more shaky and the idea of an EU army more of a possibility. Maybe even a new NATO would form without the US?

I could see the EU being more self sufficient. But at the same time it will be difficult given that they have a serious population decline. You need that population to grow the GDP. Furthermore some essential industries seem to be completely abandoned by the EU. (Looking at competitors to the FAANG companies).

>The EU would probably try to find closer relations to countries with semi big military, totally guessing here India, South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey.

This is assuming they have the capability to project forces anywhere in the world which given these countries you listed, feels unlikely either now or in the distant future.

People talk about the happy and glory years in the US in contrast to what is happening today as if both aren't borne out of the same root cause.

When you don't have regulations, strong federal oversight, high taxes, or invest in social programs, then you can have a fucking excellent party nearly all of the time.

Until the economy tanks or the American Taliban decides their party involves telling you what you can do with your body.

It's a very immature/libertarian way to run a society. Wonderful when things are good. Horrific when things are bad.

The stakes are higher than individual hedonism now, though. American Prosperity is boiling our atmosphere and by the end of the century, excess American contributions to carbon emissions will have killed more people in the 3rd world than Hitler and Stalin put together. This is not an exaggeration. Hundreds of millions will die in Bangladesh and India from rising seas and heatwaves because Americans wanted the freedom of the house, the picket fence, the 2 F150s, and the 2 hour commute, and Next Day Shipping From Amazon for All The Things.

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