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Unheard of actors is generally a good thing when doing a new series: there isn't really a series where it's felt like a good thing that it was being initially run as "starring <well known actor>". If they're any good at all (and most actors are absolutely fine) then they'll be good.

The CGI on the other hand I agree though I can put my finger on exactly the issue: the virtual sets "feel" small in the footage I've seen. There's a certainly quality to the limitations of CGI which generally constrains the camera because you can't actually pull out far enough to make it feel large (I suspect getting the lighting to cast onto the actors right is also a subtle challenge here).

idk, all of the best characters in game of thrones were the established actors. ned stark, Robert baratheon, roose Bolton, tywin lanister.

There are "established actors", if Michael McElhatton is the standard we're using, in the new show. Sean Bean was the biggest draw in GoT and was gone after the first season. When we're quibbling over the resumes of character actors, we've conceded the main point, which is that GoT didn't use star power to attract its following.

I'm not quibbling over anything. I disagree with "Unheard of actors is generally a good thing when doing a new series" and the logic provided. It's just ridiculous on its face. Generally, people with more experience produce better results. Generally, people who have a history of producing better results produce better results. Who would have thought?

That's wildly not the case in the performing arts; just, like, a crazy thing to say. Stars get cast over and over again because audiences are comforted by familiar faces, not because the stars themselves are somehow the best actors in the world. Ben Affleck is a leading man, for Christ's sake.

You managed to ignore "generally" twice (specifically put in to avoid your exact kind of response), construct a strawman argument for me, and then failed to actually defeat that strawman argument. Who is talking about "stars?" None of the cast I mentioned in the original comment are stars. They're ESTABLISHED, EXPERIENCED, PROVEN actors. That's literally the whole point I was making.

And your response to the strawman you constructed is... there is zero correlation between stardom and acting ability? It kind of seems like you and the op are saying there is an INVERSE correlation. But I'm the crazy talker here? okay.

Yes, if we're going to just accept the "crazy talk" rhetoric (I'm fine with it!), I stand by what I said: you are the crazy talker here. :)

I do love that citing Ben Affleck forced you to retreat into "I said generally!" though. We agree on something!

Looks like you're confusing experienced actors with popular actors. Just because the actors are not popular does not mean that they are not experienced and distinguished actors; furthermore just because an actor is popular does not mean they are experienced or distinguished.

Idk. I don’t think most actors are fine. It doesn’t take much skill to pass suspension of disbelief that they’re not acting. It takes a lot of skill to be an engaging character.

Severance comes to mind as a good show that is immediately more appealing to me due to Adam Scott

Besides Sean Bean — who was far from A-list — how many of the Games of Thrones cast were well-known? Jason Momoa and Pedro Pascal, who’ve probably had the most post-GoT success so far (and who were two of the most popular/memorable characters on GoT), didn’t have widespread recognition before GoT.

I haven't seen GoT but Jason Momoa was already a decently well known name before that show, he has been in other things and he is so unique, once you've seen him you never forget him.

Famous for Stargate Atlantis? He was great in that but not well known.

He was on Baywatch and North Shore before that.

Famous is probably the wrong word, but he was known in the TV industry. Basically if you were adding an "exotic beefcake" to an ensemble cast someone would suggest Jason Momoa.

> Besides Sean Bean — who was far from A-list — how many of the Games of Thrones cast were well-known?

None A-list, obviously, but (in no particular order) Lena Headey, Iain Glenn, Natalie Dormer, Peter Dinklage, Nicolaj Coster-Waldau, & Charles Dance, arguably.

Game of Thrones was packed with a murderer's row of character actors from British stage and screen.

Yeah, it probably explains why a lot of Americans had not heard about them.

Lena headey will always be on my A-list because of terminator:scc

Good question, Like you mentioned, Sean Bean(very well known from goldeneye and LOTR), Lena Hedley was known for her terminator work, Peter Dinklage(Elf, Nip/Tuck), and lets not forget Natalie Dormer(playing Anne Boylen on the tudors, a popular TV series a few years before GOT). Basically if you watched popular scifi/historical shows/movies these characters(some) were well known.

Ser Bronn spent seven weeks at the UK chart number one, bestselling single of 1995, had an album that went 6x platinum and another that went 4x platinum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robson_%26_Jerome

https://youtube.com/watch?v=r5V8ecsrxeY

Ian McShane was Lovejoy on British TV for 8 years and after GoT has been in John Wick; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McShane

Ian McShane was a major Cast member in HBO’s deadwood like 20 years ago

Ian McShane was in exactly as many GoT episodes as Ed Shireen: one. He’s hardly a star of the show.

Numenor alone has enough to make a good series - you've got epic characters, great events, powerful kings, beauty, love, treachery, doom, magic, battles, betrayal and ruin. I've seen decent series done on much less than that.

So agree, its such a tragic story, the people of Numenor had life so good, until Sauron tricked them into throwing it all away. For me it was one of Tolkien's strongest stories and I always felt like it should have major screen time as it was a truly epic tale.

I'm really surprised they didn't try to milk the Silmarillion (I've heard rumors of not being able to get the rights or something), because those tales are detailed enough to tell you how the plot goes, but sparse enough that you could write in tons of things if you wanted to.

Beren and Luthien would make a fantastic tale as well.

Disguising themselves as a vampire and a werewolf to steal a Silmaril from Morgoth in the pits of Angband? Makes the quest of Mt Doom look like a picnic. Pity we'll never see it

> Beren and Luthien would make a fantastic tale as well.

And the fall of Gondolin. And the Children of Húrin. Though not with a happy ending, both of them.

Still, Gondolin has a great journey, love, betrayal, and an epic siege with mechanical dragons and balrogs.

Húrin is more of a greek tragedy than an American TV series, but I'd still love it.

> there are so many interesting tales Tolkien wrote that have not seen the screen

Beorn! Completely left out of the Hobbit movies https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Beorn

Beorn was in the 1st Hobbit briefly, but he could have more screen time! I forgot about one character that never saw the light of day in any film(cartoon or movie) Tom Bombodil, he was a strange character even for Tolkien's universe and was rumored to be a demi-god. I would rather see stories about him than what amazon is sending out.

> Tom Bomb[a]dil, he was a strange character even for Tolkien's universe and was rumored to be a demi-god.

The theory is usually that he's one of the major gods, not a demigod.

I feel like there was a Maia who mated with an elf, but I don't remember with any certainty. Demigods aren't a major feature of the world.

EDIT: https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Melian is the Maia who mated with an elf. Their daughter, Luthien, is a normal elf, in much the same way that Elrond is a normal elf while Elros is a normal Numenorean. (Though Luthien doesn't seem to have been given a choice.)

> The theory is usually that he's one of the major gods, not a demigod

It's probably too blatant for Tolkien to have cone up with but Tom Bombadil has the same number of letters in first/second names as Eru Iluvatar. The ring has absolutely zero effect on him, but that would probably be true of any of the Valar just as much as Eru himself.

I think the theory that Tom Bombadil is Eru is fun, but in letter 181, Tolkien said: “There is no ’embodiment’ of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology.”

Agreed more about Tom Bombadil would have been the way to go. Can't believe he didn't make the cut. Not sure how they managed to do that.

If this was built as if it was MCU they would have had a small cameo then a full movie on Tom Bombadil.

A Taiki Waikiki directed Tom Bombadil series would be epic

Or a Taiki Waikiki short of Tom Bonbadil would be great.

I’ve been expecting a 15-20 shirt put out that would fit into Fellowship with just Tom Bombadil and Elijah Wood et al. The cast and effects should be minimal so would be a great student project that would probably attract the few actors needed to make it.

No he wasn’t. He’s in 2/3 of them.

I didn't see the Hobbit movies, but the fact that they had to leave anything out of a 474 minute adaptation of a book that was 300 pages long is mind-boggling to me.

While Tolkien certainly has plenty of material that could be filmed, most of it seems to be in short story format where each story would be an hour or two. Amazon is assuredly looking for another Game of Thrones and I don't think they can get that from Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or Children of Hurin.

Only there is no material to work from - so they've basically taken the same strategy as the final season of GoT did but they're doing that from the start.

There is loads of material to draw from. The Unfinished Tales, the 13 tomes of the History of Middle Earth, some drafts that emerged later. The Lord of the Rings is tiny in comparison. Some of the endings are missing, and some are only roughly sketched, but having the general outline of millennia of history really helps filling the blanks.

Technicality wise, I think the show looks solid that you can smell the money.

I am not sure about your last complaint, the original LOTR is 20 years old, the actors/actress involved are in their 50s/60s (Sean Bean!), I am not sure what is your argument there, like what connection you want to establish?

Did you ever see the Finnish LoTR series Hobitit?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobitit

Or the Soviet adaptation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khraniteli

thinking back to the bakshi film really makes me wish we could get an animated tolkien anthology like the animatrix or heavy metal. imo that would be a very good way to handle something like the silmarillion.

With that kind of money they could have bought DeepMind in 2014.