Car Quality Is Slipping
kbb.com
kbb.com
There is zero chance that Dodge and Chevy have real world reliability greater than makes like Toyota, Honda and Mazda.
They also play games like counting “problems” without a weight. Infotainment problem fixed in firmware and transmission problem both increment the count by 1?
It's very possible for Dodge and Chevy to have greater initial quality (meaning fewer reported problems) but worse real-world reliability than their Japanese counterparts. Dodge, for example, is notorious for using parts that wear down quickly. Also, Dodge and Chevy have more vehicles that target the low end of the market, where people are more likely to just accept small problems with the car as part of the cheap car experience.
Also, if you wait until you get any substantial real-world numbers on TCO from owners at 150k-200k miles - collecting several years of data - any given car will likely have been redesigned and have a different quality profile. You can extrapolate by manufacturer, but given the extended timeframe it isn't all that helpful - or even more helpful than initial quality - when buying a brand new car.
So you might be interested in mid-life or end-of-life quality, but you can't measure it early in the vehicle's life without an accelerated life test of some kind, and you can't measure it statistically without doing so on many vehicles. JD Power's initial quality survey is just that: A simple consumer survey of defects reported early in the vehicle's life. Hence the name: initial quality.
When you look at how many HF3.6 engine vehicles GM sold over the past 15 years vs how many you see on the road now, reliability (or lack of) becomes obvious. There will obviously be outliers, but the fat part of the curve (in terms of miles at failure) is what is relevant. Even when constraining for things like profile of buyer (e.g. subprime buyers will probably skimp on preventative maintenance), it becomes obvious which companies want to make quality cars and those that are mostly subprime finance companies that happen to sell cars (Stellantis, Nissan to a degree).
This was not our experience with a brand new GMC we had a few years back, which was about as reliable as the previous one, which we got rid of at ~15 years / 250K+ miles. The older one broke down every year or so, but we'd beaten the heck out of it. The newer one experienced multiple major failures in two years, including stranding itself. The old one only stranded itself once through its entire lifespan.
Do you have statistics on that?
I purchased my previous car (a Dodge) when it had 8k miles and had it as my primary car until 240k miles. It only started to have serious maintenance issues at 220k miles. I not only paid it off, but saved enough money to be able to pay for a new car in full. I would recommend to anyone, as it is really nice to not have a car payment.
Also, it's not just cost. Sometimes newer models are just worse. There is one car that I thought about getting a little while ago, but the model changed dramatically 5 years earlier (the older version was what I used on a vacation that got me interested), so I had to look at getting a 5 year old car or a different model.
FWIW, other than one car I bought new, every car I've had I purchased off-lease (so lowish miles and 2-3 years old) and kept it for at least 7-10 years, often getting to 200k miles.
I also would need concrete data to believe most people are swapping cars willy nilly. Based on income/wealth statistics, most Americans most certainly cannot afford to.
The only source I could find said: "The percentage of consumers that are leasing their vehicles has dropped due to the inventory shortage. In December 2021, only 20% of new-car shoppers leased a vehicle, compared to December 2019, when 30% chose to lease, according to Jominy."
https://www.cars.com/articles/how-does-the-inventory-shortag...
The infotainment problem is comparatively minor: Sometimes it corrupts the GPS azimuth(?) data.
This never fails to baffle me. An ICE vehicle has a hundred times as many moving parts as a BeV. Just how much lower is the BeV production quality to give them more problems?
> The most common complaint? Trouble connecting to Apple Carplay or Android Auto.
They are equating the number of complaints with "car quality" but really what they are directly measuring is the number of times an owner complains.
The limiting factor in the durability of an ICE is maintenance. Friction will eventually wear an engine beyond operating tolerances. But proper maintenance can keep an ICE going for a very long time. 100 years is totally possible so long as wear components are properly greased and rubbers are replaced every 10 or so years.
Whereas, tracing the lineage of a Nissan VQ, GM L-series, or VAG EA motor back to the 90s is very easy.
Choosing 90s was basically a CYA for a "citation needed" claim.
Granted it's a bit of a stretch from B -> Ecotech, but not too far.
Compared to ICE, EV designs and their manufacturing and supporting processes are new.
Plus some EV makes are playing games with requiring in house repairs, which incentivizes (in the near term) getting cars out the door and fixing them later
"Those numbers are complicated by the fact that Tesla vehicles weren’t counted in the study. Fully 75% of the EVs sold in the U.S. last quarter were Tesla products."
The anecdotal experience I've observed among friends is that Tesla owners are happy with the Supercharger network and better software, while other electric makers still are figuring it out, lots of buggy software, slow charging, etc.
For me, the 17" touchscreen is a dealbreaker. So I know I'm not their target market. I have no desire to make my car a computer.
Yes I'm sure they are outliers but with all new tech people that are early adopters will pay the price.
But it's definitely changing as they try to go mass market. Some rich cat buying a Model S as their third or fourth vehicle has very different expectations/needs than a middle class family getting a Model 3 to be their only car and a daily driver.
I have a few friends/neighbours interested in going electric who have recognized this and explicitly chosen to go with the offerings from traditional manufacturers over Tesla— the Kia Soul, Polestar, and in one case a Taycan. Maybe there isn't folksy stuff like plaid mode, farting seats, and biohazard protection, but that long-standing design experience does seem lead to more solid basics like safe, functional interiors, doors and windows that work, and no surprise OTA updates that move around important features in the glass cockpit.
Issue #1: 19k miles - OEM turbo blows. Subaru FSE determines a bearing seized prematurely. Turbo replaced.
Issue #2: 23k miles - Replacement turbo starts making more sounds mimicking the same noises the OEM turbo made before it blew. Subaru replaces it again.
Issue #3: 28k miles - Third turbo goes bad yet again. I cause more of a ruckus at Subaru and they call in an another FSE. FSE determined that all of the turbos blowing caused metal shards to shoot into the engine and that's why the turbos keep blowing. They ended up replacing the long block as well.
Issue #4: 8/1/16 - Car goes back after I keep hearing a rasp. Subaru determined that it wasn't the exhaust shields as suspected and called in an yet another FSE. The FSE determined that the clutch that went bad prematurely. Other misc issues they addressed during this visit:
- Rear seat driver side window has some sort of regulator issue/noise - Plastic bezel on the radio is peeling - Creaky clutch and brake pedal
Issue #5: Burning odor from transmission. Subaru says its not an issue.
Issue #6: Yesterday, driving home from Burlington VT to NYC. Reverse gear fails. No reverse option. Third gear also pops out.
It's one of the most fun cars I have ever driven but Jesus it's a nightmare to go to Subaru non-stop. I am contemplating getting a 2022 WRX and attributing all the issues to it being a Lemon...
The WRX is a really cheap family car with a small 4 cylinder engine tuned to the absolute performance limit with TONS of turbo boost, and the corresponding massive amounts of heat and stress that includes. I would expect it to be incredibly unreliable! Just a little unreliable is impressive. I'm always impressed about the interesting cars Subaru is willing to sell to the public (XT anyone?).
Ah, the Subaru exhaust rattle. We had it in our Outback and I hear it in every Subaru over a couple of years old here in Western Massachusetts. It is as distinctive as the exhaust note on MGs used to be.
Edit/addendum: I personally strongly encourage the use of biodiesel or appropriate diesel alternatives where applicable, pre 2004 are often more compatible with biodiesel. Would still take any diesel vehicle over gas
On the flip side, having experienced post-2000 adaptive cruise control, rear-view camera, blind-spot indicators in side-view mirrors, auto-release emergency brake, integration with phone for Waze and such, etc., I would not want to go back. Indeed, I find myself noticeably annoyed when a car rental is missing any of these features.
Anecdotally, I don't know anyone - outside of car enthusiasts - who drive a manual. Not only would they not consider it, a manual would be a non-starter.
Note: I used to drive a manual, and I am in the first half of my lifespan.
2002 Corolla (used) - rock solid reliability, only cosmetic issues with vinyl and a need for break pads.
2013 Elantra (brand new) - reliable, except for an electrical issue caused by an off-brand Rocket Fish (Best Buy in-house brand) car charger for my phone. The charger would send dirty electrical signals back into the car, and the new 1st generation power system would trip up... and I wouldn't have climate controls, defrost, wipers, stereo, etc for a random amount of time. I eventually reproduced it for the dealership, but was told by Hyundai that they wouldn't do anything since it wasn't a "defect". I traded it in ASAP for the next car, while it still had trade-in value.
2013 Civic (used, current daily driver) - so far rock solid, except for a tendency to burn up the brake's rotors. I had to replace calipers, pads, and rotors shortly after purchase of the vehicle (they were brand new at purchase IIRC). Occasional power system (maybe the battery?) issue where the airbag system shuts off randomly at start up.
I'm definitely cautious about buying a newer car now. I always try to review the lists at CarComplaints.com when considering what I might want to look for.
In general, it is just a crappy, uncomfortable car with far too many complex systems onboard. I should have learned my lesson with the van. Really expensive, totally meh build quality, horrid suspension, and garbage sound system. Disgrace for a company with the repute of Honda.
I think it's important to keep in mind that 1) ICEs are many generations beyond EVs so it's natural to expect more issues but also 2) ICE vehicles came into being in an age where maintenance was assumed to be inherited with the vehicle (and a lot of it if not all of it could be done by the owner or a neighborhood mechanic) while PHEVs were born into the "weld the hood shut" generation of owners and can only really be worked on by dealers and certified professionals.
I'm very handy with cars but when I bought my PHEV for the first time ever I also bought the extended warranty and any time anything happens that car goes straight to the dealer because not only is the process for fixing EV components alien to me, but they're also not built to be user-serviceable in the first place and there's limited to no documentation out there.
Think it’s on an ICE model but may have impacts on an EV line
https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-issues-voluntary-safe...
Since the survey used and the methodology aren't presented, it's anybody's guess.
Cars are SO much better than they used to be.
New stuff, not EV in particular, have bigger problems in mean just because they are sold as production ready while are just beta quality prototypes.
For cars, not EVs in particular, the issue is in target mismatch: cars now are pushed to be services, rolling infotainment stuff, while people actually tend to need and desire vehicles so less crappy crapware, less surveillance capitalism stuff, less useless interfaces and more effective tools. As a result the end product is bad. It's the mix of some managers and engineers and customers deeply divergent views.
How exactly did the tsunami affect Toyotas manufactured in the US pray tell?
More seriously, my leased CX-30 has a ton of features and fit&finish improvements over most "mid-range" brands at a very competitive price. I was deeply unimpressed with the Subaru Crosstrek and Honda CRV specifically.