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I’m not so sure the LOTR series is ideal for expansion.

It feels like Peter Jackson has already tackled all the really interesting parts of the LOTR world.

The better question is whether it's possible to create a LotR representation with even a shred of the original's soul. Chris Tolkien hated the Jackson trilogy, and then see how much further modern market demands pushed The Hobbit's execution. I don't want to see what another ten years of compromises and pandering will do to the product.

Christopher Tolkein was hopelessly grumpy (or protective, depending on your perspective) about anyone doing anything with his father's works.

Personally, as a fan of Tolkein's works, I thought LoTR was fine. I didn't necessarily agree with all of Jackon's decisions, but, in the end, I enjoyed watching the movies (and still do). The Hobbit films are a different beast, for sure.

Didn't his father sell off the film rights for £10,000 - no wonder he is slightly grumpy about any movies!

Christopher Tolkien I think was fairly correct in his analysis of the LoTR films, and I think it became clear with the Hobbit what the ultimate conclusion of that style of treatment of the source material would be.

What he got wrong is that they're perfectly fun and good films in their own right - it'd be more accurate to say they're heavily inspired by the LoTR books rather than being direct adaptions. In some cases they cut things which just would never have even worked on screen, and in general I don't think a deeply ponderous and weighty mood would have really been received that well. That said, some of the changes they made (e.g. to Denethor) were just gratuitous.

Denethor and Faramir treatment hurt..

My number 1 gripe was the army of the dead being the deus ex machina making rest of the battle pointless joke. This is after making perfect entrance for Rohan

I like the movies and enjoy watching them, some parts are masterpieces but some not so much.

What was the original army of the dead like? It always seemed like the weakest point of all the films and certainly the most glaring plot hole of why didn’t they keep using them.

In the original the army of the dead was used to capture the ships, and grab the army under a Prince in southern Gondor, (I think it was Imiril) and bring his army up from Osgiliath, to surround the armies of darkness on 3 sides, who then broke and ran.

Were they a tide of untouchable murder ghosts though? Or were they more of a conventional zombie force that could be killed?

They cannot be killed but their aim is to abandon Earth, and they only need Aragorn to liberate them after they have fulfilled their oath. Not that Aragorn has true power over them. He has only the power to set them free, and they obey because that is the way to freedom.

More or less as in the film BUT they were eager to leave the Earth, and they only needed to heed their oath. They do so in a side battle (near Osgiliath IIRC) and, immediately, Aragorn sets them free.

But they are not “an army at the ser ice of Aragorn”. They just want to be liberated and to do so, they fulfill the promise they broke. They are not obligated to more (and Aragorn has no power to keep them “here”), much less to make them obey him.

That's what I think, they are not accurate to the books, or book in The Hobbit's case, but they are good films and I love watching them.

I didn't necessarily agree with all of Jackon's decisions, but, in the end, I enjoyed watching the movies (and still do). The Hobbit films are a different beast, for sure.

Exactly my opinion as well. What worries me is that we saw what ten years of market shift did between LotR and The Hobbit. Now it's been another ten years of it. Instead of showing bad people tearing down trees to fuel industry, we're going to have some good character give a five minute long speech about it. There is going to be a romance plot between an orc and a non-orc. There is going to be a female orc and she is going to be a strong independent woman. There is going to be a ruler who is as bad Denethor but they're going to make a strong point about him also being a racist.

Oh gods no I ... I can see this happening, it's just too plausible.

Why wait, when you can watch this Gandalf^W Dumbledore prequel?

https://decider.com/2022/05/30/fantastic-beasts-the-secrets-...

(warning: Lots of spoilers in there...)

At the end of the day stories reflect our society and LoTR is just another story.

All of the classic stories we tell kids have evolved over time and are no longer true to their original source material. We take the thing we need, ignore the things we don't need, and add what's missing from our modern eyes.

If you go back to the source material for things like Snow White, Pinocchio and trace them through the ages you'll see that they have constantly changed and adjusted.

I think there's a difference between tuning a story and misappropriating it as a vehicle for your personal goals. This can be done well by giving us more background on what was a minor character or altering dialogue to give a different perspective of events. It can be done badly, such as by introducing us to Kímli, the lesbian dwarf queen with a mithril wheelchair.

Tolkien created a lot of content, an entire fantasy universe. With good storytelling there's a lot more to tell.

If Star Wars, which let's be frank here, is a 2 bit creation compared to Tolkien's works, managed to become a multi billion dollar franchise, then the LotR world should be able to do the same, if it's managed wisely.

But then Star Wars was envisaged as a series of films and the sequels and prequels are part of a directly related story with overlapping characters and pacing, with the original creators around to give it their blessing and the occasional bit of creative input. Fans can overlook a lot of shoddiness to see C3PO again or how Darth became Darth. The forging of rings or founding of Rivendell, not so much, and I think the story of how Gollum became Gollum is off limits to the series too.

The Amazon LOTR proposal is basically some new fantasy stories set in a different millennium from the LOTR world which loosely tie in with some chronologies Tolkien wrote as lore rather than narrative, with a license which prevents them from reinterpreting events from the LOTR/Hobbit books from a Tolkien Estate that isn't exactly keen on giving the series canonical status. Instead of hobbits from the Shire and kingdoms of Rohan and Gondor under threat - all places that don't exist, never mind the characters - we've got a blank slate fantasy civilisations called Numenor and Eregion (which will resemble LOTR in the same way most high fantasy civilisations tend to) and a pretty loose narrative arc which implies the bad guy eventually destroying them.

The output might be very good stories in their own right, or it might be bland as hell, but the hardcore Tolkien fanbase is going to be hard to please. Create a series of episodes purporting to show the full history of the Second Age and it'll be [probably correctly] accused of being disjointed and completely lacking Tolkien's epic storytelling skill; create a compelling quest narrative involving dwarves and hobbits and it'll be accused of discarding Tolkien's actual histories in favour of a cheap knockoff of his plot structure.

I mean, a licensee could probably randomly choose a third rate LOTR fanfic plot and sell millions of tickets to watch it, but that doesn't necessary mean its a good idea from a creative standpoint.

Them not doing Silmarillion is odd....

I mean that had some very textual readings that would have been easily loved by the woke crowd. (The Beren storyline, overall strength of female heroes during the narrative)

Assume the Tolkien Estate wanted more money for those rights...

This over 5 hours long review of all the Lord of the Rings video games ever made should give a clear indication of how much this universe has to offer:

https://youtu.be/poMnJKLGYo0

It also clearly shows how all the cash grab attempts generally fail and how those that get the freedom to create something with passion usually end up successful. So yeah...

> It feels like Peter Jackson has already tackled all the really interesting parts of the LOTR world.

looks sideways to The Silmarillion

looks sideways to The Children of Húrin

looks sideways to The Fall of Gondolin

Looks sideways to the licensing agreement that covers none of that material

Yeah, This is a valid criticism of Star Wars, which is now stuck parading the same 10 characters around forever, but not LOTR.

You can do interesting stories in any setting. LOTR is just a famous brand which means the show is going to be easier to market. I mean if you think about it the LOTR lore is mostly a somewhat christianised version of Norse mythology. It leaves a lot of room especially if you don’t feel too bound to the original texts which are frankly uneven.

> You can do interesting stories in any setting.

While it may be possible, money grubbing capitalist pig scum like Disney seem completely incapable of it, so I doubt this will end well. Capitalists destroy everything because instead of focusing on stakeholders they focus on profit above all else.

Silmarillion has some very interesting stories, though. Much more potential than in Hobbit, really.

Potential can be squandered though.

As much as I would like to see live action Silmarillion, it would probably be the most expensive tv show of all time. Many epic scenes can't possibly be shot for real so the show would require odious amounts of CGI. Heck at this point, hire a studio that makes video game trailers and turn the whole thing into a 50+ hours CGI tv show.

Silmarillion as done by Blur Studios would be incredible.

Yep, imagine the Valar and Melkor raising and leveling mountains on screen (the very early periods of Arda). Brrrr, that would be epic.

I agree on the Silmarillion although every time I reread it I grind my teeth about how stupid the elves were to give in to some empty envy towards other elves when they literally had ZERO problems in their lives.

Hits too close to home and it hurts, I guess. Because I've seen the same many times -- people literally seeking for problems because their lives are so careless and leisurely.

Just wait until the magic moment where Sauron tells Frodo that he's his father.

> It feels like Peter Jackson has already tackled all the really interesting parts of the LOTR world.

I would say Hobbit is about the least suited part of the universe for adoption. There are far better stories.

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