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Comment by eganist | Hacker News Reader

Checklist-driven dating.

Re-examining standards and re-evaluating whether every box needs to be ticked is a hugely important next step. I thought at one point that I'd met someone who "checks" all my boxes only to learn that we had some fundamental incompatibilities that kept the relationship from being fruitful for the both of us (in a metaphorical sense).

And honestly, if I encountered a partner who's methodically researched dating with the goal of having kids ASAP, I'd be terrified of getting baby-trapped. The desperation is a colossal turn-off.

Also, since crowdsourcing is up her alley, crowdsourcing relationship errors might not be a bad idea when it comes to OP figuring out where she's going wrong.

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Then again, I run Relationship Advice on Reddit. Mild bias on my part.

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All true. Maybe I should post this on your channel on Reddit:)

I certainly don’t lead the first date with wanting to have kids unless people ask. But I’ve heard from several relationship experts to be sure values are aligned in the first couple dates. Fortunately, people usually specify this in dating apps so you can filter for people who don’t want kids.

Funnily enough, one of the biggest turn-offs I’ve experienced from men is them asking me very specific questions about my fertility and the quality of my eggs even before we went on a first date or even via text BEFORE we met such as, and I kid you not, “how long ago did you freeze your eggs.” “Oh you want kids, are you planning to adopt ? Because , your age…” “ would you be willing to have kids before we got married, because your age…” again, via text before we even met.

I don’t think there’s any shame in being clear I want a family soon and hopefully this will attract a man who shared the same goal.

Seriously ridiculous questions. I know many of my Gen-X peers started families in their 40’s without assistance.

But do you know how many tried and failed? The chance of failure at 40 is definitely higher than 30 (unless you froze eggs when younger).

> The percentage of IVF cycle starts that resulted in live births was 41.5% in women younger than 35 years, 31.9% in women aged 35–37 years, 22.1% in women aged 38–40 years, 12.4% in women aged 41–42 years, 5% in women aged 43–44 years, and 1 % for women older than 44 years. In contrast, in patients who used eggs obtained from healthy, young donors, 51% of fresh transfers resulted in a live birth, regardless of the age of the recipient.

https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...

This is one of the statistical realities I really wish society was more open about. It would really help women make proper informed decisions.

That is against the narrative that women are equal or can do everything.

Nature is different as fertility patterns between man and women.

If women does not have their ducks in line at 32.

This thread happens.

I am not saying this is fair or nice.

However men usually dies 5 years earlier in average.

Things are different saying its not does not help.

Edge cases are not normal.

Are either of you women ? This is seriously obnoxious to ask about on a first date and ignores the reality that many women such as myself , fortunately are quite fertile and capable of having children.

I’m sorry but a woman would not post this BS

That's not how statistics work. Which is why the GP post was pointing out the absence of negatives when only selecting for positives. It is certainly something that is crass to bring up on a first date, and I would never, but it is a reality that many women face and they should be forewarned. Not by me, but by media, sex ed at school, other women.

I’m male. And I can’t imagine I would ask about it on a first date.

But if you’re up on fertility issues, it’s a legitimate concern. As people age, the rate of fertility success inevitably goes down, and the risks (e.g. Down syndrome) go up pretty dramatically.

Having frozen eggs greatly reduces those risks, and for an older man that wants kids, a potential wife with frozen eggs could mean a lot.

I agree it is a legitimate question. But a first date is not the place to ask it, as you say, and certainly not to keep prying when a woman says she's not ready to speak about something so personal. I do want to have children but I don't like being treated like a cow for breeding and that's certainly not how I treat men on my dates. This is exactly why I am looking for love and intimacy with someone before having children. If I JUST wanted to have kids, I could go to a sperm bank or ask a friend to lend some swimmers or have a one-night stand. I'm looking for a real, mutually beneficial partnership. And hopefully one of our shared values is having children.

I’ll give a counter example: married at 29, had only an ectopic pregnancy at 31 to show for our trouble, was diagnosed with low Anti-Müller hormone levels, never went the fertility assistance route because losing my mother to breast cancer put me off messing with my hormones. Decided around 38 to be content with my kind husband, comfortable life, travel, and lovely nieces and nephews.

Gave birth to our “happy accident” a few months after my 40th, chasing around a robustly normal, deviously clever near-two-year-old now.

I'm so sorry for the hard times you went through and so happy to hear about your happy accident! I hope you're enjoying your little two-year-old very much!!

You seem a little obnoxious!

I’ve given a couple of these guys lessons on women’s reproductive health :) hopefully it will benefit the next woman on bumble they meet !

You are one of my favorite new people codewriter

I think men today are not as fertile as they used to be in Gen-X

I suspect the bigger challenges in the modern dating market is guys who assume they have all the time in the world to have kids. (Which is not true. Sperm quality degrades with age.)

For what it’s worth, my wife’s view is that women who want kids should be clear about that up front to filter out guys who aren’t like minded. They are out there. Men want kids as much as women, statistically. Maybe find a south Asian guy whose mom has put him on a deadline, lol.

> (Which is not true. Sperm quality degrades with age.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_widows_who_...

On December 10, 1927, the then-21-year-old Stewart married the 81-year-old Martin, primarily to get help raising her son and because his $50 per month Confederate pension check guaranteed her a degree of financial security. She gave birth to a second son, Willie Martin, 10 months after her wedding to William Jasper Martin, who was 82 at the time of the child's birth.

The child trap can work both ways - a woman wanting a child but not a spouse may attempt to divorce and leave with the child, which could be a turn-off for men who actually want children but want the woman to value them - not only as fathers.

As a man not much younger than you, it's helpful to hear that's a turn-off. What to ask when is tricky. I see several options:

   1. Estimate the odds of successfully procreating upfront; Downside: Can seem boorish and unromantic and ruin the chance of a potentially successful relationship.

   2. Keep getting to know each other and discuss once we're more comfortable with each other. If the answer is unfavorable:
  a. Be honest about the reason for ending the relationship; Downside: Cruel to one's partner and heartbreaking
  b. Fabricate an excuse for ending things; Downside: Dishonest and unfair to partner; guilt and heartbreak
  c. Stay anyway; Downside: Reduces likelihood of having children

All this to say, I worry that your gut reaction may be filtering out the men most serious about having children. If someone knows you as a multi-dimensional being beyond a dating prospect first the approach changes. So I'd add this as a reason meet people through others means.

Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to.

This is the dilemma with so many things. In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale. A bit like the education problem...

"Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to."

That's a really kind and encouraging thought. I appreciate that.

It's kind of amusing to me that people are starting to think the way I presented myself in this post is the way I should present myself on a first date. I would also worry about scaring someone away! That said, I've already met a couple people through the post, so maybe being up front and explicit about what I want is a good thing!

In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale." ->> so true

" A bit like the education problem..." nice one:) you pay attention to detail!

You came back to a thread a day later to engage. That takes an unusual amount of dedication and patience.

An assortment of thoughts: I hope you read How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's not because you need it to know how to communicate. While I'm sure you'd learn a few things about talking to others, I suspect you'll learn something about the way various styles of communication make you feel. You can see it in the variance of of your responses in this thread. I'm not convinced that this is a core issue but seeing the way a few different comments have elicited affection combined with your comment about wanting to feel seen makes me think it could explain why the men who attract you so often tend to disappear.

It might be interesting to ask your dates at what point during the thread they decided they wanted to get to know you. I can imagine a more analytical person finding you appealing enough from the intro. But if I had to guess, this medium works for two reasons. The non-scalable one is that humans care more as they know someone better. The thread is long and you get vastly more mental attention than through other means of introduction. The scalable ones are attributes that come through in your comments but not in your post: You radiate earnestness and ebullience at a level that's rare even in humans a decade younger; you're indefatigably engaged; you have the patience to try and reason with almost anyone yet occasionally lose your temper which is further evidence of complexity; in short you appear human.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and energy people have spent being engaged with this and their genuine desire to help.

In terms of action items : I will read the book How To Win Friends, and I’m also going to focus on developing relationships with male friends and dating more. Taking more time to get to know people and they me.

Speaking of being indefatigable, I am quite driven when I want something and it’s hard for me to stop, but especially with some of the more recent comments, I think I’ve reached the fatigued point.

With regards to dates : I went out with an incredible guy today that I met through this post, 10x liked him more than any of the last 90 dates.

He said what drew him is how brave I sounded.

We will see what happens but I’ll going to focus on friendship and being bold. I asked him to hang out again :)

Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to reading the book :)

I think that it’s perfectly fine to be up front that you want children to a woman, even the first date - or filtering for woman who also want children.

What is not ok is inferring that they couldn’t have children because of their age or asking very pointed questions about their reproductive health on a first date, especially if they don’t want to volunteer that information to someone they barely know. Don’t you think it would be odd if a woman who you were ok a first date asked you about your sperm count and pressured you to reply if you weren’t able to volunteer that info immediately ?

The other thing is that I am clear about my age and desire to have children in my dating profile, so it’s upsetting to have someone second guess me on a first date…

If a woman is kind and compassionate and honest and not sure about her ability to have kids, when you’ve expressed a strong desire to have them, she’ll take the high road and tell you or leave the relationship.

If you are ready to get more serious with someone and have trust and intimacy built up, it is totally ok to have that conversation.

> one of the biggest turn-offs I’ve experienced from men is them asking me very specific questions about my fertility and the quality of my eggs even before we went on a first date or even via text BEFORE we met such as, and I kid you not, “how long ago did you freeze your eggs.” “Oh you want kids, are you planning to adopt ? Because , your age…” “ would you be willing to have kids before we got married, because your age…” again, via text before we even met.

Please don't take what I'm about to say as an attack on you; I'm going to describe the human condition that ALL of us suffer from, using your situation as an example.

What you've just described is the inverse of the kind of vibe you're giving off to potential partners, specifically: an ulterior motive. This is absolutely a turn-off because it gives the impression that the person is just secondary to the goal (a kind of "nice to have"). In your case, an incubator for their child, and in their case some sperm and 18 years of financial liability should it not work out and worst case you get full custody. When things fall apart, the war will be bitter and the one using the other will ruin both the child's and the ex-partner's life as they scorch the earth to fulfill their need.

So there is already conflict and ulterior motives on both sides, and you haven't even spoken yet! Not the best place to start from...

Nobody wants to be played for a fool; that's why you need a long dating process to suss out whether the other person is honorable and wants you for you, or is just using you to satisfy some need.

Ideally, you'd both be without ulterior motive when you start dating, but neither party has that option anymore because the clock is ticking. So you really do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room, and work together to come up with a solution/compromise that both can be satisfied with. These include:

- Not having children

- Freezing eggs

- Adopting

- Having children before dating (sperm donors)

Whichever route you're leaning towards, you're going to need to have a frank talk with any man you talk to about dating, and you'll need to have this conversation early, because BOTH of you are running low on time (you moreso than him), which breeds desperation. And desperation is a HUGE turn off unless you can both have a real, mature conversation about the reality you face, and decide whether you can work together or not. This is no easy task, which is why the dating process usually takes years. And you definitely DO NOT want to bring children into the picture until those years have been spent together. Anyone who tries to take short cuts in this part is being irresponsible, and that's a huge turn off. That's why you're disgusted by the behavior you mentioned.

TBH your most likely chance for success would be to agree to adopt, because then you gain the luxury of time again and could date in peace and really get to know each other without this nagging feeling that you're merely mr/ms Right Now. But any of those solutions still have a decent chance of success, so it's on you to decide what will be your plan A and plan B, and make sure anyone you date is on board with that.

The strongest signal you can give that you're a fit parent and partner is to demonstrate that you've thought this all through very carefully for the child's sake, and expect any potential partner to as well.

Good luck and godspeed!

I’m a guy fwiw and think this is the best comment I’ve seen so far on the thread. Mostly because: I agree with it, think the advice/reasoning about ulterior motives and the luxury of time is wise, and lays out some good alternatives for OP.

Best of luck to the above poster and OP

I think that if a motivation to create a child with someone is expressed plainly and clearly, it is far from an ulterior motive. It's a genuine motive.

Maybe she wants to rule out potentialy abusive partners this way. Someone who isn't sensible enough to mention such things on a first date raises too many flags. The fertility questions are already in abusive language territory even if they're well intended.

I think you may have misunderstood me: She is absolutely right in rejecting such interactions, because they betray a selfishness (in the bad sense) on his part, and good sensibility on her part to say no.

The point of my comment is to raise awareness of the overarching problem of ulterior motives no matter how benign in the end. At this late stage in the dating scene, almost EVERYONE will have it. And there is a certain ... "selfishness" isn't the right word (English is too morally blunt to describe this), but definitely need and time pressure on the part of people when it comes to dating for the ultimate goal of having a lasting relationship AND starting a family this late in the game. It's unavoidable that your motives get mixed and jumbled, so it's especially important to communicate this and not accidentally come off as "progeny first, you second".

I don't envy her or anyone in this position, because it's hard enough to communicate these when you ARE on the level and honorable, let alone trying to discern that from the selfish, abusive, whatnot people out there.

> dating for the ultimate goal of having a lasting relationship AND starting a family this late in the game

> I don't envy her or anyone in this position

Thank you for the follow up, but I'm afraid your tone is somewhat too assertive.

Having children is not an "ulterior motive". It is a more important and honest motive than "eternal love" we have been conditioned by Hollywood to believe in.

Thank you. One hundred times yes.

Ok. I’m not sure how me talking about wanting to have kids in this post spun into me telling every man on the first date that I’m desperate to have kids immediately. That’s obviously not something I would do. I might bring it up casually a couple dates in or put it on my dating profile. Seems like people are kind of making a stretch.

Thanks so much for your kind words and encouragement.

I believe that gently asking someone if they're open to having kids on the third date or so is very different than aggressively asking a woman very specific questions and making generalizations about her reproductive health before you've even had a first date or on that first date, especially when the question was uninvited.

It is sad to me that so many people feel that I should hide my desire to have children because "it's a turn-off."

I feel that it's important to be honest and truthful with people.

I'm sorry, that's not what I was intending to say. I'm not finding the right words (and the English language sprinkles too many negative connotations on words that should be more neutral, without offering suitable alternatives).

Getting an agreement about having kids early on is absolutely a good thing. And those examples of aggressive questioning are absolutely a bad thing, morally speaking.

But I'm not talking about morality, rather, psychology. The landscape you find yourself in is not ideal to forming trusting relationships, which means that one must navigate much more carefully than someone in their twenties would. Not because you have anything shameful or things to hide (quite the opposite), but rather because there are many desperate people in similar situations who improperly court the idea that a little deception or trickery now can be made up for later. And in doing so they poison the well.

I also agree with you that being honest and up front about what your goals are is absolutely essential. After all, you're building a relationship, and its strength is directly proportional to the foundation of trust.

I guess all I can say in the end is: You're not doing anything wrong, but also that not everyone is the same. There are people out there who share your ideals and goals, and it's a matter of luck to meet them because all of the dating apps and services out there suck (I dealt with them before marrying someone I met in a completely different context and completely by chance and with no initial intent for a relationship, in my early 40s - go figure). I still don't envy your position, but I do wish you good fortune. Keep the faith.

Most of what you said sounds totally reasonable but I don't understand how being turned off by men asking very specific questions and interrogating her about her fertility before they even met is an "ulterior motive"? Am I missing something here?

> I don’t think there’s any shame in being clear I want a family soon

This ruins a lot of my friends dating scenarios. I think you maybe should rethink that.

In my humble opinion, the laws of supply and demand are stacked against you. Most single men in there 40's expect that there partners are wanting to have kids and feel pressured by hearing it on a date.

You also could miss high quality options who say they're " not ready" to have kids, when they mean that they haven't met the right person and/or haven't arrived at their desired financial level. If men think they can't provide, they are going to say "no to kids". I had a friend that was 38 and said he didn't want kids, then he was given a $70k increase ( from $110,000 to $180,000) 3 months later and then he switched to ready to have kid and was married within 6 months. Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass.

I think the right answer to my friend circle would be " I do really want to have kids someday with the right person, but not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later if things are going good and say " we have a great connection, I really would be open to having kids much sooner. Thoughts?"

I know a few guys this worked on. They just were hearing kids immediately as a red flag, when really they were more inline then what either party truly understood at the time.

Think on it. Hope this helps.

Great idea about the 'not in the next 2 years'. I would have fallen for that myself. Myself, we waited for 4 years after marriage to have our first. Looking back, I wish we had started off having kids. We have 2 ... I wish we had 4. Oh well.

Just today my 2 year old drank shampoo because we haven't watched him (I was with his older brother). How do people even handle 4 kids? And how do you handle 2 such that you think that having 4 would be great?

this sounds like a failure of communicating more than anything else. your friend at 38 wasn't making clear why he didn't want kids. in his position i'd have said, i don't earn enough money yet for kids.

Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass

i wonder if men who need a high income before they fell that security are potentially covering up other insecurities or are just very materialistic. i'd be wary.

"not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later

i don't like that much. i'd prefer people clearly state their expectations. make clear what conditions you expect before you can have kids. don't have hidden criteria that make you change your mind without the other being aware.

(btw, if i may say so, if we are all going to wait until we have such a high income before having kids then the birthrate is going to drop even more than it already is. but that's just another sign that raising kids in the US is just way to expensive)

I tend to agree with this. I also feel that in general men who are in my age range have a clearer idea of what they want and I try to respect that instead of trying to change things or "hook them in." In their twenties, their mind might change drastically, but not so much later in life.

> i don't like that much. i'd prefer people clearly state their expectations. make clear what conditions you expect before you can have kids. don't have hidden criteria that make you change your mind without the other being aware.

That part made me uncomfy too. I'm quite young and I've never dated so take this with a grain of salt, but maybe also clarify that you're open to the fact that you may change your mind? I don't know.

In general, I swipe left on guys who explicitly say they don't want kids or have and don't want more. That's pretty much the extent of it. I've learned not to think I can change somebody if they are that specific that they don't want children.

I totally agree. I once broke off a relationship because she was very clear about not wanting kids. I did want kids. I was madly in love otherwise, but I just couldn't see this working.

Also she smoked. It was clearly a relationship where my emotions conflicted with any sense of reason.

>And honestly, if I encountered a partner who's methodically researched dating with the goal of having kids ASAP, I'd be terrified of getting baby-trapped. The desperation is a colossal turn-off.

What alternative is there for a person who wants kids that is running out of time to have kids?

Lower your standards dramatically, like most men do.

But at some point, you need to accept some responsibility for why you don't have kids. A woman can literally go and attempt a pregnancy on any given day of the week.

Note that having kids is not the same as finding a man who wants to start a family with a 41-year old woman. That's just the reality of it.

I “need to accept responsibility for not having kids”?

How am I not accepting responsibility for not having kids?

I think what they are trying to say is that getting pregnant is easy. You could do it if you want to. It’s the finding a mate first that is making it difficult.

yes, that's true.

In non-western cultures, the primary goal of 'dating', if you can call it that is marriage, and the primary goal of marriage is to have kids.

Thank you! It is really strange to me that a woman talking about dating as a means to find a partner and children is such a "turn-off" and expresses "an ulterior motive"

I guess in some circles it's only acceptable to think about dating as a means to have sex? Very odd.

There's a more charitable reading of the proper motive which aligns what you want: To be wanted for some essential thing about yourself.

Because in most non-Western countries it’s assumed that even a marriage solely meant for making children will never dissolve. Let alone the western divorce courts which are prone to leaving the man with no real access to their kids and 18 years of financial obligation to a woman who hates him. Divorce is how vast majority of western marriages end up in our modern times.

If you don’t internalise this simple reality you will not understand why those men behave towards you the way they do.

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