Google’s Android Automotive OS is coming to BMW cars next year | Hacker News Reader

Google’s Android Automotive OS is coming to BMW cars next year

theverge.com

78 pointsra797 comments

Semi-related whining: I don't want the car to run apps. I don't want it OTA-upgradable. I want the car to have all of its own instruments and essential functions tucked away, and to offer an interface for it to

* send demands (mix down the music to zero and bring up my channel, there's an emergency)

* respond to information requests (Battery is at 55.31%, no systems have errors, headlights are on, speed is 45.8mph)

* and let my computer request non-critical things (please turn on the seat heaters, set the HVAC to recirculate medium, set thermostat to 68F)

Keep the security and safety things far away from the shiny user interface things, and let me replace the user interface things every few years instead of replacing the car.

This! "Smart" TVs are already a dumb idea because the "smart' piece will be outdated long before the rest of the device, but a car...?! I want to drive my car for ~15 years. All the "smart" stuff will be long outdated.

CarPlay and Android Auto are basically just dumb terminals to the phone. It’s easy to keep those compatible. The cars that supported the iPod USB protocol in 2005 still work today with modern iPhones.

Yes I know that Android Automative is different than Android Auto.

If it will be outdated, how can it be provided at all in a car?

I perceive from the parent comment that there's an assumption that one can just write a low level API that a high level, customizable interface could run against. We aren't far enough along in the process of digital computing in cars to know what that API looks like. So any user interface at all with fancy features requires frontend and backend integration (so that safety testing guarantees can be made if no other reason), and you're there for stuck with either OTA updates, and interface that will look prehistoric within 15 years, or nothing at all.

OTA-upgradable has advantages. If the shipping firmware has bugs (and in my experience, this has been true for over a decade), it must be returned to the dealer to fix... unless you have OTA updates, and then it's no problem.

Problem is majority of times unsolicited updates take away perfectly working features, introduce unwanted new ones, or bring in bloat and ads.

I had to laugh when my previous Samsung TV notified me of an update about 3 years since the last update - I went ahead and installed it, it literally just uninstalled a bunch of apps where I assume the licensing agreement had expired.

Thankfully I didn't use any of the apps because they sucked anyway...

OTA-upgradable means automakers are siphoning your data and selling it off to who knows where. Speed, gps, brake, etc. Hundreds of pieces of data. I'm sure insurance companies are actively buying this data up.

Source: worked at the telematics/connectivity division of one of the big car companies

Here's hoping. Given what we've learned about how accident rates are under-reported, it would be nice if somebody was getting a more accurate global picture of how driving actually works to allow for safer roads and safer insurance policies.

Beautiful thinking. Now back to reality - let's randomly play ads through your car audio system while driving and at max volume. Of course we will block your ability to control said audio system for duration of an ad so you can't skip nor mute the ad, duh. Enjoy your internet connected car.

On the other hand, I want a Tesla with a sweet app and sweet cruise control.

Yes. Making cars “smart” and marketing them as such allows makers to cut corners ob everything else. Like Apple’s “we added 567 emojis in this release”.

The title is misleading as BMW will introduce Android Automotive as a second platform - not fully switch to it.

> “The company plans to develop their BMW Operating System 8 infotainment software using Android Automotive for some vehicle models beginning in March 2023 but also maintain the current Linux-based version for others.“ https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/30/23189642/bmw-android-auto...

Thanks for this, from the headline I already feared they are going to cancel iDrive! Good to know it doesn't go anywhere, its such a good, wonderfully tactile system!

I'd hate to own a 10 year old car with Android Automotive in it...

It'll be weird when there is a market for dumb cars.

Well, the only good thing is that Google Maps will likely continue to run. My DVD based system had it's last update ever in 2015, so it will occasionally show me driving "off road" where the map database doesn't have street info. But then the cellphone companies could retire 4G data service at some point (like how 3G just shut down in February) and you won't be able to use it at all.

My car just has a BT receiver. My phone is my nav and in car entertainment system thus saving that entire problem of obsolescence.

I'm not really sure it's any worse than what we had before. My Ford's entertainment system (pre-Android Auto) hasn't received an update since it was about 1 year old and in the dealership for a warranty service.

I bet there is a market for dumb cars right now but dumb cars don’t have enough profit margin for investors to be interested.

There's a market for dumb cars, it's called the used/vintage/classic cars market.

Increasingly, that's standard cars. 98% of all north american cars being sold are automatic (completely anectodal stat).. if you want standard your choices are a Golf or a Jeep. It might even become gas-powered cars too but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one

Took me a minute to figure out that "standard" meant "manual" here. Interesting usage.

I tried to research the actual % out of curiosity, and I think your anecdotal guess was pretty accurate. This article [1] claims that it's 97.6%.

[1] https://www.carmax.com/articles/stick-shift-index

"Standard" to mean manual transmission is a common usage in Canada. In my experience, even people who know nothing about cars still call them that. Even though manuals haven't been standard for decades.

We actually call it manual, I called it standard because that what I feel americans call them

the civic is still available manual. bmw, porsche, ford, kia, hyundai, toyota and more all offer multiple cars with manuals. It's true that manuals are a very small part of the market, but most major brands actually still offer manuals.

"some of its future models would run on a next-gen version of its in-house operating system built on top of Android Automotive. It's a big change from previous Linux-based versions, though the company says some of its cars will stay on its legacy build."

Seems a lot more limited than the title hints at. Is the word legacy from BMW? They may continue to improve the Linux version so I would not call it legacy until it gets fazed out.

Most car companies don't "continue to improve" their software and that's probably what will happen here - they'll just stop updating those head units and leave them behind.

That isn't quite right. Most companies continue to improve software, they just don't release updates. They fix minor bugs and add new features, but you can't get at that without buying a new car as they don't provide means to do updates. (major bugs trigger a recall, sometimes everyone gets the latest, sometimes they apply the fix to each branch)

They might use the same hardware for 20 years (in that time at least a few parts will go obsolete to be replaced with something functionally identical), but if yours breaks you will get that hardware with the version of software released for your car even though the software from a later model year would run on the same computer and have more features.

Note that just because the software will run doesn't mean the system will. Sometimes they change network interfaces in incompatible ways so the whole car will not work in some way which could be major or minor depending.

When was that? Right now all 3 of my cars provide over the air software updates, because all 3 have cellular modems for things like remote lock/unlock or remote start. Even before this the previous generation Dodge I had could be software updated via a USB stick.

Only select things get those updates. I doubt the engine code gets changed.

I suspect it is cheaper these days to get Android devs than Qt/C++/Embedded Linux devs and can't help wonder if this is their big cost cutting decision.

I wonder what this means for their Qt/QML teams and a lot of their middleware from Genivi: https://www.genivi.org/ (Interestingly, the website seems to be down for me).

Also BMW is indirectly admitting that their in-house software development sucks, they underinvested in it for many yeears and now they need to buy the core from Google to stay competitive. If it is only about Java development then they could write their own platform in Java.

As far as I can tell Android Automotive is open source and free to use. So no, they aren't licensing the core from Google.

BMW hasn't released enough information to understand why they are doing this, but iDrive 8 (the latest version of their in-house Linux based software) is widely regarded as one of the best car software systems. Which granted, is a low bar, but it's still pretty solid.

I think they are afraid that Google's software will become an industry standard and that they will be left out. They are in the position where they need to make a bet and that bet will determine how the next decade of business will look like for them.

If the best product wins then Google’s is likely to become industry standard. Android Auto is not panacea, but no European or Asian company has shown any talent to build high quality software in scale. Only US/Silicon Valley companies can do this. And this is not just about cars - it’s also the same for mobile phones, etc.

Just to be clear. The article is about “Android Automotive” a self contained OS built into the car. Android Auto is basically a display that requires an Android phone to operate.

>no European or Asian company has shown any talent to build high quality software in scale.

In Scandinavia alone: Symbian? Spotify? Skype? Video games?

Calling Spotify high-quality software is daring.

Symbian?

I worked with Symbian and it’s now dead. It lost the mobile OS race for a reason.

So BMW is switching from a Linux distro to a Linux distro

I feel somewhat vindicated knowing that even big companies have the same distro-hopping problem that I have on my own machines.

Android is not really a Linux distro in the usual sense. It only ships the kernel and none of the GNU userspace components that a typical Linux distro has.

Still sounds like a distribution of Linux , aka it’s running Linux.

That's not what people mean when they say "Linux distro".

Ah ok, what is the definition then ?

I thought it would be a Linux kernel bundled with software and distributed in a format that's easy for people to use?

So... it's Linux but not GNU/Linux?

BWM naturally owns the whole stack, however in what app developers are concerned, nothing Linux related is part of stable API surface of the NDK.

Trying to use them might get an app killed.

Of course on what concerns BMW/Android it is a different matter.

Linux kernel, a very minimal userland, the Android VM on top of that.

Android is arguably on a path to becoming a dominant if not the dominant embedded system for consumer devices. I don't say this with any joy whatsoever.

Android is dying. Chine companies have made their own OS to replace it. Google is bringing Fuchsia to replace Linux kernel to get total dominance over stack. List goes on.

If this[1] is what "dying" looks like, then it's not so bad.

Android still accounts for over 72% mobile OS market share, with iOS far behind in second place at a mere 27%, and everything else is trivially insignificant.

[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide/...

Dying means that its dominance is reducing regardless of the current marketshare. That chart actually shows it.

I'd be happy to see Android die.

I'm not sure Fuchsia or a Chinese alternative is what I'd prefer in its place.

Ugh. The iDrive system in my 2013 F30 is juuuuuuust right. Easy to use, thoughtfully laid out, good mix of on-screen menus and tactile buttons / the jog wheel. The newer cars have touchscreens, which is a big step back, but thankfully you don't have to use them. (I heard they were recently removed from some cars due to supply chain issues.) There's just no way that Android is better.

I love my car, and the experience of driving and owning it has made me want to be a BMW customer for life. But if they ruin in it with this crap, I'll be looking elsewhere.

iDrive rocks. But I think something got lost in translation here. From the original press release it sounds like android automotive will be running alongside iDrive and both will be available? I don't see BMW just ditching iDrive, especially when carplay OS is coming too. Ideally we would just be able to choose between carplay OS, Android OS, and iDrive.

I'm largely ok with the infotainment in my Mazda. It's simple and to the point. I don't have any major complaints after it stopped crashing like it did for the first month i owned it (I have no idea why it stopped).

I'd really like car manufacturers to let me run whatever i want on it though. It's just a Linux box and since you can reboot it while driving the car, i know it's not safety critical. It would be cool if I could just load on a standard executable in whatever machine code it runs and make my own apps.

> I'm largely ok with the infotainment in my Mazda. It's simple and to the point. I don't have any major complaints after it stopped crashing like it did for the first month i owned it (I have no idea why it stopped).

You didn't happen to listen to 99% invisible did you[1]? IIRC there were also some FM stations that had RDS issues which triggered a similar problem in mazdas infotaiment.

1. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-roman-mars-mazda-...

I have a ‘15 F30 and a ‘22 G80. Nothing is better on the F30 and often touchscreen is really convenient compared to the puck. I will add that BMW iDrive feels massively more polished than the MMI in my recent model Audi, which also randomly needs soft/hard resets.

Volvo recently switched to Android Auto from their own Sensus system and I originally thought was going to be great considering Sensus was never anything special...

Instead it has been a mess with Carplay support coming soon for something like a year now[1]. I'm not sure if Android auto is explicitly sold as "ship it half-done, you can always push updates!" or if that just happened with Volvo, but it has really turned me off from the platform.

[1] https://www.swedespeed.com/threads/22-xc60-no-apple-carplay....

Version 2.2 (this is on mid-2022 XC60) release note announced Car Play support. But they retract the release on 06/27 and the release is no longer visible from their release page.

I think versioning in Volvo and Polestar are somewhat in sync. For Polestar, CarPlay has only been retracted in 2.2 for US (which some hypothesize includes Canada) and UK. When the version was first released there was a bug where speed is shown in km / h instead of mph.

Regardless, I’ve not been soured by the slow intro of CarPlay. Android Automotive is sufficient for what I need the infotainment for (maps and music), and frankly I’m not surprised a Google built OS is having trouble integrating an Apple product. That they have plans to offer CarPlay at all via Android Automotive was a surprise to me.

Source: own a Polestar 2.

Off topic but Now that cars are running Android and are getting bigger screens I wonder if Xbox cloud will start being deployed to cars the way Tesla has done with games.

You can already play games on Nvidia shields and $50 Firesticks (also technically chromecasts but comments say it's laggy).

https://youtu.be/30Ytq2hPo3M

I've played Fallout 4 with 5G + an Xbox controller on my iphone a few times so I'm sure it's possible.

Definitely possible... my kids play their console on the back screens in our minivan. There's a standard outlet to power the game system and an HDMI port for the screens. We've never used it for gaming, but there is a wifi access point built in to the vehicle too.

Misleading / Clickbait title, BMW aren't switching to Android - they're just offering Android auto as they do Apple CarPlay.

Better reporting at https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/30/23189642/bmw-android-auto...

@mods

Are you sure? Android Automotive is totally different from Android Auto. And everything I've seen is very explicit about saying "Automotive".

This is not accurate. BMW already offers Android Auto today. This is an announcement they will be making an Android Automotive based infotainment system.

My point was they're offering it for /some/ cars, they're not switching to it, sorry I confused the naming from android auto with android automotive - those two words mean the same thing in Australia/NZ.

> BMW aren't switching to Android - they're just offering Android auto as they do Apple CarPlay.

No, that's not what you were saying. You compared it to CarPlay.

Yes, the names are confusingly close.

Ok, we've switched to that article from https://www.androidpolice.com/bmw-android-automotive/. Thanks!

p.s. "@mods" is a no-op. I only saw this completely randomly. If you want deterministic message delivery, please contact us via hn@ycombinator.com.

I noticed lately that Android changed the UI of my Clock/Timer app without asking me, and it looks worse, not better. Plus it confused me when I was confronted with the change.

So future car owners, beware.

Android Auto, Android Automotive, CarPlay and cars' own operating systems all in the mix?! Not standardized, not compatible apps etc. Somebody needs to standardize this just like Gates said back in the day for PCs.

Standardization is nice, but so is competition. Notably, Windows got really sucky in the first decade of the millennium XP and Vista and competition from Apple's Mac forced Windows to improve (7+).

Personally, I'm somewhat worried about the "planned obsolescence" effect that these smart infotainment systems have on cars. Will it put pressure on consumers to upgrade their cars every few years as we do with phones, lest our infotainment system fall out of support? Will we as a society end up discarding otherwise perfectly good cars because the infotainment system is well out of date?

I don't use my car's infotainment. The maps are 10 years out of date, though it will sometimes still get me places. However even in the best case of up to date, the maps on my phone get updated with the latest road closures as they happen, and infotainment doesn't.

All I need is a Bluetooth connection, and fortunately my latest phones still connect via Bluetooth to my 10 year old car. Doesn't connect to me 20 year old car - but that never had bluetooth, so while I'm annoyed I can't complain.

Existing infotainment systems are already almost immediately obsolete. At least with Apple Carplay or Android Auto you don't actually have to use them for most purposes, as long as the car manufacturer didn't take the user-hating move of making climate controls entirely infotainment-based.

Obsolete or outdated? The legacy infotainment systems circa 2010 are largely still supported along with the rest of the car.

Windows had too long period of time without proper competition and we can now see it in the stalled development.

Ok, same goes for Mercedes I suppose. They are working on a own "operating system" as well.

I read my "Tanenbaum" and this move makes sense for a company, that has few merit in software development.

Electric Volvo is full in already. As is Polestar... which is super unfortunate because the hardware is actually quite excellent.

Germany keeps making poor choices

They'll pay the price in the next decade by becoming irrelevant

They should have fired all their software engineers, they are definitely incapable of making fast, smooth, and usable interfaces

Using android = they give up, and worse, they embrace the bloat

Now you need even more expensive chips to power the bloat

Congrats to whoever clueless dude is now the manager

Glad i don't own a car, and glad i will never purchase one of their cars

I see it as a no-brainer. To phrase it differently, what exactly is the added value BMW can provide over a Google/Apple infotainment system?

They need to focus on transitioning to EVs, there's no point in wasting energy on building and maintaining an infotainment system when a good out of the box option exists.

Later once they pulled off the EV transition if they want they can fork android and go from there.

Have you driven a BMW that came out in the last 5-10 years?

In addition to having been selling EVs for years, their UIs are amazing. They're far ahead of the junky android auto (and first party) implementations I've seen from other manufacturers:

- No touchscreen; just a jog wheel

- Bluetooth "browse" works great. I can tune podcasts, global radio stations and my music collection by feel.

- The map's eco mode routes based on the power train consumption profile of your car.

- "Send map address from phone to car" just works.

- "Idiot light" stuff is intuitive (e.g., resetting the TPM after filling the tires; knowing when service / inspection is due, etc, etc.)

- Did I mention no touch screen? This is important if you plan to drive the car while the computer is turned on.

On top of all that, it does a great job of getting out of the way and letting you focus on the road.

> - No touchscreen; just a jog wheel

Navigating any more than 3 in screen elements is dangerous with jog wheels, IMO. It requires switching visual attention from the road several times. It's even worse with hierarchical navigation. For those a touch screen is much more direct and requires less hand/eye coordination and focus.

> - The map's eco mode routes based on the power train consumption profile of your car..

I'm skeptical that the power train type of a car would make one route significantly more efficient than another. The biggest factor in route efficiency is route length and the speed it is driven at, not the power train.

> switching visual attention from the road

Not really. If its a rental and your first BMW sure, get familiar with the system. But once you are familiar you can use most of it blind - without taking your eyes of the road. Just turn the wheel 3 steps to the right, press, two steps left etc.pp. Its way more intuitive and safer than a touchscreen.

Can't say I have, but I am guessing most new buyers are looking for that "techy" big touchscreen experience (even if it does provide a worse UX) so I'm not sure BMW has much of a choice (but I have read zero market research)

Also, it's confusing but Android Automotive != Android Auto, it's actually a different system and one which seems to be getting good reviews (but ymmv)

What? BMWs current system is hands down the best available in a car today, and is fast, smooth and usable.

Does anyone know whether they will be compatible with iOS?

From what I've seen Volvo has it isn't like Apple Carplay or Android Auto. Rather it's a self contained android device

Correct. Poorly named, but Android Automotive is the equivalent of the iDrive software that runs in the BMW center panel (in the absence of any other user device)...CarPlay or Android Auto could still overlay that assuming the carmaker supports it.

Yes, but Volvo/Polestar have just started the OTAs to add CarPlay support.

Yes, it does support CarPlay.

That's too bad. BMW used to make nice cars.

Do you have to have a Google account to drive?

No, you don't have to. Android Automotive is the base OS. Manufacturers can opt in to offer Google Automotive Services (GAS) which are a bunch of Google apps on top, which you do need to sign in to use.

Aw your car was suspended for abuse? Follow the FAQ link which turns into a recursive hell hole with no one powerful enough to help you when you eventually stumble on a human.

Dystopic action-comedy potential: a White House Down style thriller, except one of the key plot points is the villains immobilizing the fleet of Presidential vehicles by getting their Google accounts banned with fake copyright claims.

No but you have to watch a 30 second ad first.

Out of the frying pan, into the fire...

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