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Well done! I took the 608 Type 1 exam (online open book) but never went beyond that.

Venting refrigerant is illegal in most of the world but it's almost impossible to enforce and compliance is typically quite low (good data is, as you can imagine, difficult to find). CARB in California now requires owners of large refrigeration systems (>250 lb of charge IIRC) to report all refrigerant recharge to the state so at least there's some efforts underway.

The best data for compliance is to walk into any tool store that sells AC vacuum pumps and try to find a recovery machine on the shelf.

That is something that has bugged me. I have a leak in my car's AC. I have injected the dye, found where the leak is. All I have left is to open the system and replace some old seals, but I can't do that right as the equipment isn't available. So I'm stuck venting to the air as it is the only thing I can do. (I could of course take it in, but some combination of cheap and doing my own maintenance means I don't)

Note that the vacuum pump is often a free rental from the auto parts store, I don't know why they can't/don't rent the recovery equipment.

Most shops will evacuate the system and remove the refrigerant for a small fee.

Seconded. I found a local mechanic and it cost very little to have them remove the existing refrigerant. They also kept track of the amount removed (which ended up being very little) and offered to put it back in after the leak was fixed.

Try taking it to an AC shop & pay for a 2-part deal: evacuate it now, then fill it back up in a few days.

When you put it back together you can pull a vacuum on it, close it off and make sure it stays that way overnight. But you may still want to have a professional shop test with higher precision than whatever gauges you use.

You're correct, however most aren't going to pay the big cost to do that. A better way is to be able to either borrow a recovery unit or rent it. The other problem is training someone how to use the unit and then know what to do with the freon after recovery. Until it's made cheap and easy to recover, venting will continue to happen.

Satellite surveillance is going through a capability explosion at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if it could spot venting in the present or near future.

Honestly, aggressive expansion of remote sensing is the only realistic way for humanity to coordinate on climate at all. There are too many opportunities to defect in the prisoner's dilemma otherwise.

Good idea! I looked into this when I first started thinking about the problem. MethaneSAT is launching this year, so I thought maybe we could do the same for refrigerants. Unfortunately I don't think it would work:

1. Methane is 1900 ppb in the atmosphere[1], refrigerants overall are ~12.5 ppb -- so a lot less out there to detect. 2. I think methane leaks tend to be from single, continuing, large point sources -- coal mines, oil wells -- whereas refrigerants are usually from these distributed small point sources which happen once. So by the time you detect it it's too late to intervene.

[1] https://www.noaa.gov/news-release/increase-in-atmospheric-me...

Regarding additionality: does this mean that, for purposes of the offset, you’re trusting that the technicians you train wouldn’t have properly recovered the refridgerant anyway? Do you have some rough statistics to suggest this? There’s also the issue of self-selection: the techs that work with you are probably more likely than the general population to be properly reclaiming already, for instance since the marginal gain from your program is greater for them (same money for no additional work). Have you considered this?

The company is a start-up.

So what if they are picking too-low-hanging fruit initially? As long as their process can in principle scale to a point where genuine reductions are possible. And they do actually enter a legitimate certification process fairly soon. The certification authority will then become responsible for proper accounting.

In the mean time, they are asking for investors' trust without verification. Not ideal, but not unreasonable for a PoC / MVP.

Good questions, we spend a lot of time thinking about how to ensure the actual additionality of what we're doing. The most important consideration - we pay per kg, and less than the market rate of new gas. So a technician that was recovering gas before to reuse it would be taking a loss if they sold to us and then went out to buy new gas.

Gotcha, so technicians that already recover generally reuse now? Thanks for the great explanation!

The EPA offers a reward to anyone who reports venting refrigerant. There are some exceptions such as R290 (propane) which you can freely vent.

A lot of the newer refrigerants are much safer for the environment, but you are still allowed to recharge and buy older refrigerants. Only the manufacture of new refrigerants is prohibited.

I took the 609 test and got my card. The test seemed to mostly check if you had a heartbeat and weren’t asleep. I went away without much confidence that 608/609 certification was really worth much in terms of trusting certified people to really be on top of the whys and how’s of proper refrigerant handling.

It’s just a card that can be used to beat someone over the head with the law harder because ‘they definitely knew better’. Eventually (seems like CA is trying?) there will be paperwork that needs to be filed with fines attached, so maybe even 50% of folks will actually do it.

It's a certification that shows the technician is aware of the law, similar to no trespassing signs and lease agreements. If it's not enforced that a problem that needs to be fixed. If people aren't following the correct procedure because they know they most likely won't get caught and don't care then that's a problem with them.

The “starve the beast” legislators underfund the EPA to the point that there is no money for enforcement, and enforcement at the technician level is going to be really unpopular with lots of “The government fined me out of business” stories. The path I used to acquire refrigerant is a break in the chain that has been operating for years in the open and probably moved >100 tons of refrigerant. I was unreasonably disappointed that I didn’t have to provide my brand new EPA card number.

Its usually just one of the steps to doing it professionally. Most states AFAIK also have a licensing regiment required to work on anything not covered by the small appliance 608 type 1 which covers more theory of operation code compliant installation/etc.

So the EPA cert by itself isn't usually enough to work professionally (unless your repairing home refrigerators).

Specialized labor certification just requires that you memorize the safety requirements (that will almost always be obvious for engineers), and at most repeat a set of steps.

It can not be too onerous, because people need the work, and people capable of solving systems of differential equations have better opportunities than work on them.

Memorizing the location of fire exits is also obvious and yet we do drills to burn it in because when you’re in the shit it’s hard to think rationally about this kind of stuff.

A little repetition is good for the monkey brain.

> Memorizing the location of fire exits is also obvious and yet we do drills to burn it in

I don't think that's what the drills are for. You do drills so that everyone is familiar with an organized process of exiting the structure, so that an evacuation can occur quickly.

In the absence of drills, everyone will still know where the exits are, but they'll form giant traffic jams that block people from using the exits.

Equally important, drills test if the exits are enough of if something must be changed about them.

It’s an educational test, not a proof of knowledge.

If you came away knowing not to vent, to use the right refrigerant, not to vent, to take your waste to the reclaimer, not to vent, to leak test with nitrogen, not to vent, and that you can be fined $43,000/day for not having your paperwork in order… then it worked enough.

Hmm. So a little venting is fine?

This is downvoted but got a chuckle from me. Recently had to replace a radiator on a vw TDI and had a remove the A/C line, there was a little bit of venting that occurred (the A/C didn't blow cold before so thought there was little if any refrigerant in the system). TLDR I suck!

I don't think there a mechanic out there who doesn't make doesn't accidentally break the integrity of those flimsy AC lines weekly. They are thin walled pipes, and connected with tiny green O-rings.

There are no standards on how many pieces of thin walled pipe a vechicle can use. It's usually a spiders nest of hoses.

You need to change you blower motor, or do anything that involves the dash, radiator, you are taking a calculated risk. Most mechanics might have a recovery system, but it's usually in the corner of the shop covered in dust.

It might help if the federal government standardized parts for the AC system?

I'm very careful, but the last time I changed my blower I borrowed a recovery system, but still made a mistake, and released all the gas. I was going to recharge it, but the generic evaporator core outlet to an ac line was 1" short. I had to go genetic because I couldn't find OEM.

And no don't make a mechanic's life harder with a bunch of regulations. They are already over regulated, and it's a hard job.

Technically, yes - "de minimis releases" are allowed because there's no practical way to avoid them. This is the small amount of refrigerant burped out to purge hoses, for instance.

With a lot of older R22 units, you can "pump them down" where the compressor actually accumulates all the R22 and pulls a near vacuum. Then, if you disconnect it from the coolant lines you can bring the whole unit to a reclamation center. Even my old unit was able to pull a 1200 micron vacuum on the lines.

Unfortunately, my r410a units regularly vent to the atmosphere because flare fittings suck.

As someone who had lots of family work in Appliance repair, I can assure you that venting is still very common.

It’s common, but I wouldn’t call it an everyday occurrence at least, thankfully. A good barometer is actually the guys over at /r/HVAC who are in the field every day. Last time there was a thread on this a couple of weeks ago the general consensus was that really bad stuff like emptying of entire compressor units into the atmosphere does happen, but it’s more like a few times per career occurrence to witness rather than a daily or weekly thing.

Now it’s probably fair to say that /r/HVAC isn’t a completely representative sample, but at least it gives me a good feeling that the situation probably isn’t as catastrophic as this article indicates (in the states at least, it’s probably worse in Indonesia like in the article’s example)

Are these certificates difficult to get? I've considered getting stuff like that when I become an owner so I can DIY stuff because AC is a necessary luxury for me and I'd rather be able to repair/replace as quickly and cheaply as possible with no salesmen and middlemen invovled.

The basic small appliance grade, I the read the training material for a couple hours at night, paid $25 for the test, and passed with a 98% needing something like an 80%. You will need a "type II" to do modern home units. That is a proctored test, but Skill Cat will do you there from the comfort of your phone.

You will need something under $1000 of gear and supplies to get going, half that if you can rent an evacuation unit. (I can't find any near me.) You need to store your refrigerant outside where it won't get over 49°C, 120°F (assuming R410a) So it rates pretty high in the "pain in the ass" factor.

For modern home units, the circuit boards and motor controllers seem to be a common failure point and these are crazy expensive from the manufacturers anyway and hard for you to buy as an individual. If you have an older unit before variable speed compressors and fans then you can probably get commodity parts to replace them.

Just so you know, based on this little story of yours, I would instantly want to hire you. Great attitude.

And in my jurisdiction, after I took a two year training school on my nickel, then work 7500 hours as an apprentice at slightly over minimum wage, then did the extra stuff to be a contractor… you'd be able to.

The requirements seem extreme, though I did break a fan blade in my indoor air handler while checking its temperature, total noob mistake. If I were hiring a trusted contractor I'd want someone better than me!

Ideally there might be room for a grade of lightly trained technician which can handle the easy stuff and do some of the time consuming diagnostics then just throw in the towel and say "You need a better man than I."

> If I were hiring a trusted contractor I'd want someone better than me!

I hire a contractor because they have the parts needed on the truck, or know where to get them fast. I also hire them for their insurance in case they screw up - I've hired someone saw them screw up and not paid for their mistake.

I think GP might have meant hire you to do just about anything else, not necessarily fix an AC.

I agree with them if that’s what they meant :)

Yep!

I've noticed that now that there's a shortage of everything not only is it hard to find a specialist who could do the work, products themselves often arrive somewhat defective.

The other day we bought an indoor tent for our toddler. The frame is composed of wooden sticks with some having an aluminium tube glued at the end to connect it to another stick.

One of the tubes was slightly damaged, so the other stick wouldn't go in.

Fortunately the ceramic base of a (broken) LED bulb is harder than aluminium, so after some twisting I managed to file down the tube to size.

> I researched how to diagnose them and do the easy fixes, ran into the EPA requirement, studied the material and got my EPA certification

Please write more or make a video or something. I have been thinking very seriously about doing exactly this.

HVAC is an absolute racket in my area, and nothing is ever a single-visit fix. If you don't sign up for their "maintenance plan" the fix mysteriously doesn't last very long.

Not much to say. Pass the 608 (home hvac) or 609 (automotive). Buy the refrigerant at supplier. You can buy an expensive R134a refrigerant recycling system like the one I own for 609, but you can also use a less expensive refrigerant recovery system that's functionally a vacuum pump with built-in manifold gauges and a tank or just a vacuum pump, manifold gauges, and a recovery tank. Easy fixes are on YouTube. I am looking into setting up a refurbishment service for broken AC electronics. To me, it's just a motherboard and I can fix them with my soldering station.

I was really interested in getting my certification after I saw how much they wanted to charge me for refrigerant. Ended up finding someone else to do it but seemed not that difficult. Glad to know someone has done it outside the industry.

Nice! I was in a very similar situation. Got the EPA cert and all the equipment and replaced our central AC. Glad to see I'm not the only one crazy enough to go through all that trouble :)

> Of course if my yak had already been shaved maybe it could have tolerated the heat.

So many questions. r/BrandNewSentence

http://wiki.c2.com/?YakShaving

Thought it was a clever double entendre but didn't take it in a riqsue manner myself

Yak shaving: * a task, that leads you to perform another related task and so on, and so on — all distracting you from your original goal.*

Though depending on your local vernacular and what "yak" might mean to you I can see room for confusion.

I used to go to a town named "Knob Lick" which my English acquaintances found quite an amusing town name.

This isn't about techs, it's about those metal scrapers that pick things up for free.

I unfortunately got a technician who was so busy ranting against vaccines that he broke the schrader valve and vented a whole bunch of R22 into the atmosphere, while missing the real root cause of the failure i.e. the safety switch was triggering due to a clogged drain and preventing the compressor from running.

Do you actually own a yak, of all things, or is that last bit a euphemism for shaving your johnson?

Not a double entendre, but a reference to a well-known idiom of 'yak-shaving' to refer to recursive chores with deep dependency trees.

It is a (non-risque) double entendre in that the second compressor had additional heat to move in the meantime, and that a yak stays cooler shaved.