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Comment by MBCook | Hacker News Reader

While this post is obviously being updated it goes back many years.

I know there are people who don’t like Wayland’s design or goals. Same with systemd. But we still hear constant complaining.

The big distros appear to have decided on these as the future. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to use it. But the other (or older) options aren’t going to get much development.

I’m not sure such posts are very productive this many years in.

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> [...] I know there are people who don’t like Wayland’s design or goals. Same with systemd. But we still hear constant complaining.

You know, I was anti-systemd at first, until I started learning more about it and honestly, I kind of like it now. Yes, I fully admit that makes me crazy, but hey the world is upside down anyway so why not join the party? ;-)

> [...] You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to use it. But the other (or older) options aren’t going to get much development.

THIS. THIS THIS THIS! This is why I use Linux! Because with Crapple and Microsnot, I don't have this choice. At least with Linux, I do! Kinda sucks about the other options not being maintained, and I agree that's a problem, but this right here is why I dropped both MacOS and Windows earlier this year for 100% Linux full-time.

And Linux as a desktop has a LONG way to go. But Wayland is a good start.

I, and only I, goddammit, will decide what code runs on MY computer. (Within functional reason; not a lot you can do about binary firmware blobs, realistically, but you get the point.)

Microsoft and Apple rob people of this necessary choice. Such a detriment to personal freedom and security is not acceptable. And if that means I have to endure the X vs. Wayland drama and nonsense, in order to maintain the liberty I should have damn well had from the beginning, well then so be it. I'll take that hit and be better for it.

Do you understand that what you are saying is directly and perfectly antithetical to Free and perhaps even merely Open Source, software?

(the Wayland people apparently didn't, that's for sure)

the reverse is true. FOSS developers are free to work on whatever they want. X11 devs decided they didn't like to work on X11 anymore and created wayland instead. you don't have to like it and you are free to contribute to X11 yourself if it is important to you, but wayland devs don't have any obligations here

Absolutely.

But also, I have no obligations to like or respect what they do either. I think they're going the wrong way and I can say so. The freedom works both ways, and I don't think we should shield them from criticism.

i strongly disagree. criticism must be constructive and helpful. and developers absolutely should be shielded from criticism, especially FOSS developers, because if we don't then they will stop sharing.

basically, ask yourself: is your response friendly and helpful and likely to motivate the developer to consider your issue, or are you venting your frustration. if it's the latter, then please just don't.

see here for example:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31945618

i made a similar comment a few weeks ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31679373

users should be free to be critical of it

absolutely not. you can say: "unfortunately, i have this problem, so i can't use this, i am going to go use something else". but that's about it.

criticism is the bane of our society. criticism hurts peoples feelings. criticism causes burnout. FOSS maintainers are volunteers and absolutely do not deserve that kind of criticism for just developing software. (that doesn't put them above any criticism. if they are rude or mean to their users, then that may well be criticized. but not if they ignore a problem or are unresponsive. they may well have other things in their life that are more important than to care about your software issue) (and if the developer is paid, direct any criticism at the company, but don't beat up the employee who may not have the freedom to choose what issues to work on)

Being open source doesn't mean nobody should dare criticise you

if you didn't pay for it, it means exactly that.

They effectively made bold claims with their plans and they failed to deliver - in a place in open source that people rely on greatly. If they do this badly, that's a betrayal of trust. That is my view.

Now, it's true -- I absolutely have no legal or physical recourse to materially affect them them and because it's open source, I shouldn't. They should never be sued or anything like that.

But you can get out of here with the silly idea that it also shields them from me COMMENTING, even HARSHLY.

Look, I didn't talk about their mama's, I talked about their product.

Your idea that "FOSS developers should be shielded from criticism because they'll stop sharing" is as absurd as "Never boo a musician because THEN THERE WILL BE NO MORE MUSIC."

you may want to read this article and discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31977136 Why criticism lasts longer than praise (bbc.com)

All I said was the mindshare has moved to the new thing and that means the majority of developers did too.

Because I said complaining wasn’t productive?

This far after adoption, I don’t think it is. Fedora isn’t going to see this list and drop Wayland for X. They went to Wayland 7 years ago. I think they’re happy enough, they had plenty of chances to change their mind.

But hyperbolic titles like this one (“Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!”) are unhelpful. HN later changed the title here to something much less inflammatory and more fair.

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