Comment by peace4all | Hacker News Reader

Comment by peace4all | Hacker News Reader

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I should add that Kirill Yeskov is a paleontologist and science popularizer. Here's his own explanation how he wrote "The Last Ringbearer": one of the reasons he mentions is that Middle Earth was impossible geologically:

https://fan-lib-ru.translate.goog/e/eskov/text_0150.shtml?_x...

In which he also mentions another famous book:

"It would hardly occur to anyone to seriously analyze the functioning of the ecosystem of a barren desert inhabited by predatory worms the size of a multiple unit train that feed on walking excavators and then sweat psychedelics: fantasy is fantasy, what do you want from it?"

He also wrote a great book on the Earth evolution and life evolution, in which he also explains how science works and worked earlier, and what were older theories, and Popper criterium as well.

Here are some of his lectures for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEp7o0-w-uU

..and an interview with some charts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdyW9V10IEQ

(unfortunately, auto-translated automatic captions aren't readable, giving just an idea of what the talk is about)

>Being a paleoantologist, he made a question to Tolkien's book: why the Middle Earth had such strange land mass distribution, which is geologically impossible. And this started the "Last Ringbearer" book.

Unfortunately he missed the answer: at the time Tolkien was writing, plate tectonics was still considered an absurd hypothesis, the subject of mockery by "serious" geologists. As such the understanding of "geologically impossible" at that time was rather different than when Yeskov was writing a few decades later.

It was not until the 1950s that widespread sea floor mapping and research, made possible by the now-unnecessarily-large-and-mostly-idle US Navy, provided conclusive evidence that forced the geology establishment to accept plate tectonics.

It's easy to forget how recently we stopped being totally wrong about things like that.

> the Middle Earth had such strange land mass distribution, which is geologically impossible

I would love to watch a YouTube video explaining the geology of Middle Earth and the geology science explaining why it's impossible.

Here's Kirill Yeskov's own explanation how he wrote it, Google-translated: https://fan-lib-ru.translate.goog/e/eskov/text_0150.shtml?_x...

Here's a proper human translation of the same essay: https://www.salon.com/2011/02/23/last_ringbearer_explanation...

Note how he discusses plate tectonics and Tolkein's ignorance, having forgotten (or never realized) that plate tectonics was not taken seriously in Tolkein's time.

He has written a big book on evolution of Earth and theories around it. [1]

It includes a whole chapter on plate tectonics, the preceding theories, and how plate tectonics itself was gradually accepted. In the book, there's also a large review on other scientific problems, like where the Sun gets energy from, why the Earth has magnetic field, where does internal the heat of the Earth come from, etc. Lots of "how do we know that..." questions. A great review, highly recommend.

So he's 100% aware what status plate tectonics had in Tolkien's time. I think he also mentions that as a linguist he wasn't a geologist, and could draw the land whichever way he imagined.

[1] Kirill Yeskov. History of Earth and Life On It. (in Russian) https://readli.net/istoriya-zemli-i-zhizni-na-ney/

If he was 100% aware of the status plate tectonics had at the time Tolkien was writing them he should not have criticized him as he did.

Maybe he was just sarcastic?

It’s a no brainer that a person cannot be equally oriented both in linguistics and in geology. ... So it would be quite possible to declare an amnesty to the Professor at this place: they say, an offense undoubtedly took place, but it does not pose a particular public danger.

I find it hard to read the extended discussion of plate tectonics as sarcasm. It's not a single throwaway sentence, it's multiple paragraphs.

Not a video but still a good read on this: https://www.tor.com/2017/08/01/tolkiens-map-and-the-messed-u...

>geology science explaining why it's impossible.

Mordor is...it just doesn't work. It's a hard scrabble plain with a large inland sea bounded on 3 sides by jagged, abrupt mountains that are entirely isolated from any other ranges, and form right angles with each other...oh and the surround a cone volcano that just emerges from the ground.

Any one of these things (minus the, I repeat, NEAR PERFECT RIGHT ANGLES formed by the mountain range around Mordor) can be explained, but the conditions that lead to one preclude the other.

...are we just going to ignore the fact that Middle Earth also has wizards and mind-controlling rings?

I don't mean this dismissively, I just think more imagination is called for. If Mordor couldn't have arisen via normal plate tectonics, then geology must work differently on Middle Earth, or there must be other magical forces at play. (If I remembered anything significant about LoTR I would suggest a more specific theory.)

> geology must work differently on Middle Earth

This is where a lot of people get stuck. They see the enormous effort put into world-building Middle-earth and can't help but see a gaping geologic hole. Yes, geology must work differently, but how? It frustrates people to see entire languages and histories fleshed out in minute detail on one hand, but on the other "rocks just do different, bud" on the other.

Tolkien was a linguist, not a geologist or economist (his anti-industrial and pro-monarchical/religious perspective were a resistance to the changes occurring in his time), so it's no surprise that he spent so much time on the linguistics.

His formative encounters with industrialization were the horrors of mechanized warfare in WW1, after which he retreated to the cloistered worlds of academia, religion (he was a devout Catholic), and the rural countryside of England. The perspectives and protagonists of his stories reflect that personal arc as well.

He was overtly trying to give England back a pre-modern mythology that he felt it had lost, because he felt that it was a better vehicle for introducing Christianity to children than the comparatively stark biblical stories.

Yes, we are on the same page as to what influences affected Tolkien, his limitations, his authorial intentions and goals, and the historical context in which his work was created.

What the geophillic fans wish to hear however is more akin to, "Yes, Tolkien operated within these constraints. It would be great if someone could fanfic or headcannon their way into a reasonable conclusion with the benefit of hindsight and scientific and narrative advances we've made in the meantime." It's a small gesture that opens a door rather than shuts one and provides just a bit more cognitive closure for the people who want it.

> What the geophillic fans wish to hear however is more akin to, "Yes, Tolkien operated within these constraints. It would be great if someone could fanfic or headcannon their way into a reasonable conclusion with the benefit of hindsight and scientific and narrative advances we've made in the meantime."

They sure are asking a lot of a fairy tale.

Oh sure, the in-universe explanation is that the fallen Valar Melkor, who became known as Morgoth the Black after his destruction of the Trees of the Valar, used his might to pervert and destroy the works of the other 11/12 Valar and "brought forth fire and leveled mountains and raised valleys" to create hellscapes out of their work, such that the Earth, instead of a garden, became discordant and all the plans of the Valar were marred. After the end of the First Age, when the host of the Valar came to the aid of Middle Earth and destroyed Melkor's fortress, and brought him to judgement to be cast into the Outer Dark, there was further geologic destruction as the powers of the hosts basically destroyed the continent/region of Middle Earth known as Beleriand.

After THAT there was a further catastrophe as the Numenoreans, corrupted into the Dark Arts by Sauron, who was their captive, decided to wage war on the Valar, who they believed were keeping the secret of immortality from them. The Valar were in a pickle, and abdicated their powers and called on Eru to judge, because this was outside their mandate. He Atlantis'd Numenor and destroyed the majority of their people (who had turned to worshiping Morgoth) - the Numenoreans who founded Gondor and Arnor and who created the political landscape of the Third and Fourth Ages were the remnant of that fallen civilization, who were warned of the destruction of the isle of Numenor and escaped on boats.

Also it can be supposed that Mordor was a partial creation of Sauron, who fled there after the fall of Numenor as a spirit (could be wrong about that)

If you mean the map, compare to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-do...

The Carpathian Mountains and Transylvania would like to have a word with you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains

If I recall correctly, the geography of Middle Earth was heavily changed during the wars between Morgoth and the Valas. I.e., it wasn't entirely shaped by natural processes but also by the willfull acts of semi-Gods

Meddlesome demons ruin everything. Too bad Feanor didn't think to create Stormbringer instead of the fucking Silmarils; he could have shoved it up Melkor's arse and then put the rest of the Valar and Maiar in their place.

Hey, just a note that the YouTube links are the same, which I don't think you intended.

> paleoanthologist

You meant "paleontologist" or is it a pun around anthologies?

no, just my mistake, corrected, ty

Brian Eno had these "Oblique Strategy" cards with pithy sayings printed on them. He would famously refer to the card deck when in need of inspiration. My favourite card says "Honor thy Error as a hidden intention."

Paleoanthologist is one of the best Freudian slips I've seen in a while. GO WITH IT!

one can argue that perhaps the reason is paracausal! (apologies to Bungie...)

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