In an urban area there are different considerations that might weigh less heavily in favor of unrestricted access to firearms.
It strikes me that rural area firearm ownership might warrant a different treatment than urban area ownership. And if that's the case maybe there's a wide class of these sorts of things that we should address on a similar basis.
Edit: I guess my initial comment was more about a cultural/legal framework for reasonably reducing the number of semiautomatic weapons in the general populace.
So that's how we end up with people calling hunting rifles "assault rifles/weapons" or "military grade weaponry". It's like dude a freaking blunderbuss is military grade weaponry. The most popular hunting rounds in the USA were originally designed for military use.
That said, the lethality advantage of semiautomatic weapons over manually operated is obvious.
Assault rifles have automatic (or select-fire) capabilities. One trigger pull can produce many bullets.
Semi-automatic rifles, which were later called "assault weapons," can only produce one bullet per trigger pull. What makes them semi-automatic is that they automatically reload after firing. Many other types of guns also do this (eg double-action revolvers) and many take minimal movement to reload (eg lever-action and bolt-action rifles).
This is a very big difference. A commercial semiautomatic rifle is only slightly more lethal than a bolt-action rifle. An assault rifle is much more lethal than both.
Also, if you watch videos of actual military operations, you will find the 3-round burst used very frequently because it is a lot more lethal than semiautomatic mode. Only special ops troops tend to use semiautomatic mode for fighting (since they are better marksmen and are concerned about noise). Police also only use semiautomatic weapons, because they don't have access to automatic weapons.
It's pedantic but while regular officers don't deploy full-auto weapons, police departments certainly have them.
For your average soldier a automatic gun is just a waste of bullets. Which is why elite soldiers never use full auto mode: it is never a useful mode for them. It is still useful, but you don't need much training to run a gun in full auto mode, so generals put the non-elite troops on the automatic guns. (though sometimes an elite soldier will volunteer for the automatic duty - it is kind of fun to chew threw tens of thousands of bullets in one trigger pull)
(Hasn't the US military actually moved away from fully-automatic weapons for regular troops in favour of three-round-burst? So it ends up as a very close convergence)
The actual story here is that regular hunting calibers tend to be significantly more powerful to maximize the probability of a humane (one-shot; ideally, instant) kill. In fact, many states don't allow hunting deer with .223 on the basis that it's not lethal enough. For similar reasons, most jurisdictions require hunters to use some kind of expanding bullet, whereas ARs are far more typically used with cheap military-style FMJ ammo.
I use .308 Win, probably the most common calibre for red deer hunting here, but you meet people using fancy powerful rounds like 7mm Rem Mag or .338 Lapua.
The damage to this country's social fabric done by the feds due to the Ruby Ridge and Waco massacres really cannot be understated. A LOT of people looked at that and said "ain't gonna be me, we'll kill em if they try that shit" and went and armed themselves, their families, and their neighbors to the teeth.
As they say, it's not paranoia if they're actually out to get you.
I’m not sure what changed, maybe the ar15 patent expired, they’ve always been around just not that popular. Then, all of a sudden, they were everywhere.
Military weapons also generically have the advantage of having been tested for ruggedness, and not having to worry about being able to find parts or ammo in a decade.
Are you expecting a WW2 French Revolution style situation where the moral resistance will be stronger because of the unregistered firearms?
Most of these guns are bought on credit or debit cards, so the information about big ticket gun buyers probably unregulated available through Palantir or whoever.
And if FOIA is really the problem (not the government knowing) then the registry could be made legally exempt from FOIA. The government keeps databases including all of your income (IRS) and your religion (the Census) but random journalists can't get the information.
It seems like evidence that a registry is fine: apparently even when a registry is public it didn't result in the owners being "targeted", so a private registry visible only to law enforcement would be surely even safer than that.
Imagine whatever opinion you might have that is controversial, even mildly so. Now imagine that a new story about how that opinion makes you dangerous to society also includes your name and address in it. I think the harm here need not be a physical attack on someone, intentional intimidation is a mild form of violence itself.
I reread the cnn link again and I still don't know about the article you're referring to; from the text of the CNN article it sounds like it was solely a map and all of the other quotes are from people worried about the potential harm like burglaries. The CNN article doesn't actually even say the names or specific addresses of the gun owners was published, it only describes a map with dots.
Overall I'm not sure that that map is actually more risky than a map of where the atheists live, and we don't stop collecting that info on the census. The census data has never been leak published to my knowledge.
So even if it is true that example of a published map was a horrible safety violation, that only means that the data shouldn't be available to journalists, which is different than saying the data shouldn't be allowed to be known by anyone in government. The census and IRS are examples of the government being able to maintain secrets, so I don't buy the idea that it would be inevitably leaked if a gun registry had similar legal protections.
And it doesn't seem to support some risk of evil powerful people who are going to do something nefarious with this data once they get into power, which is what the thread above is about.
It's the same reason why some European countries don't include race or religion in their national IDs. When the Nazi's took over, the existing governments registry of individuals made is real easy to track down all the people they wanted to eliminate.
(The registry was eventually scraped because of non-compliance, less than 25% of estimated guns were never registered).
https://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/25/us/new-york-gun-permit-ma...
At least in the United States, sadly that ship has sailed as SCOTUS precedent repeatedly emphasizes the 2nd Amendment as a purely individual right. The so-called preamble discussing states and militias is now formally a dead letter.
With the current court, yes, but that interpretation only dates back to 2008. It would be much less of a reversal than we just saw for a future court to find that Heller was decided in error, and unlike Alito’s pretense of research there’s far more historical precedent supporting the collective interpretation going back at least as far as what the people drafting the second amendment discussed when they did so, as well as two centuries of general agreement on that point.
And, also, the prefatory clause of the text of the Amendment itself.
So that actually aligns with it being an individual right.
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-well-regulated-mil...
Your argument sounds like “we denied black people rights in the past so there for the 2nd amendment right doesn’t apply to everyone.”
Weird argument.
You are focussing on what the militia is (and erroneously pretend that it has changed over time; it still essentially the same thing, see, e.g., the codification in Title 10 of the US Code.)
But my point is about what the second amendment says the militia is necessary for, not what the militia is. Because that's the part that is relevant to the claim that the 2nd Amendment provides a right of the type that should be applied by the 14th Amendment to be protected against the states or rather than that explicitly has a role for the benefit of the states and to which the incorporation logic of the 14th Amendment does not apply.
Incorporation of rights protected against federal encroachment by the Bill of Rights against the states isn't universal (the requirement of indictment from the 5th Amendment is not incorporated, for instance), even for rights that are expressly individual rights. Incorporation is a separate question.
Stare decisis is critically important, but when it comes to substantive law the fact is that historically decisions don't have staying power unless there's some internalization of the underlying legal logic. Liberal justices walked away from Douglas' phrasing almost immediately and were never able to replace it with anything.
I never had a problem with penumbras. It's as apt a description as anyone could conjure to refer to positive rights which exist by implication. And in fact usage of that term goes back to jurists far more esteemed than Douglas. Conservatives have long tried to use the 10th Amendment for similar effect, but that likewise has failed, and frankly as an analytic device "penumbras" works much better.
I used to think Kennedy's "dignity" reasoning in Obergefell v. Hodges was awkward, but upon closer inspection of broader legal theory he's actually drawing upon a vein of jurisprudence that could become a cornerstone of American legal theory in this area. It's much more well developed outside the U.S., but that doesn't mean it's not consonant with American jurisprudence. Yet I haven't seen many law review articles, let alone case decisions, try to further develop this principle. I think like penumbras, liberal jurists are inclined to roll their eyes at it, even though they haven't yet got to the point where they literally roll their eyes at it. I suspect Hodges will fall quickly, unless Gorsuch is able to refashion a theory based on sex discrimination much like he did for Title VII in Bostock v. Clayton County. (But that's a stretch as Gorsuch claimed to be using a plain text approach to statutory interpretation.)
Thing is, we have the constitutional amendment process for a reason - it is supposed to be a living document, true enough, but it's supposed to be updated through political process, not judicial. The problem, of course, is that the bar for amendments is so high that they become impossible in practice; but it's also impossible to fix that without an amendment. Thus, so long as enough political forces believe that the status quo is preferable to other options, it'll remain that way, and we'll see increasingly contorted Supreme Court decisions to reach goals of whatever party controls it at any given moment.
That leads to another problem, which is that SCOTUS, and the system as a whole, rapidly lose legitimacy. At this point, it already doesn't matter much whether any given decision is legally sound or not - it will be supported or opposed consistently along partisan political lines. The same people will castigate the judges for "inventing" rights in one decision, then blame them for not buying into the rights "invented" by other judges. I don't know how much longer we have left, but this passage from Federalist Papers (#22) comes to mind:
"... two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third."
Given the ages of quite a few justices, the current court will remain mostly unchanged for decades to come.
It's a non-starter.
I think it’s quite plausible that there’d be significant public support for a reform package: pin the number of justices to the number of lower courts (we have 9 because that’s how many there were the last time that changed), add term limits for new justices, and adopting the ethics rules which other federal judges are required to follow.
You’re telling me the situation is more contentious than the 30’s when FDR was trying to pass his New Deal during the greatest economic collapse the US has ever known?
No. Your reply and your hyperbole suggest you don’t know much about the court’s history.
If you want to do better, note that I was talking about the legitimacy of the court itself, which is critical to an institution with a great deal of inferred power which is not explicitly spelled out. The FDR-era court did not have a justice whose legitimacy was dubious. Similarly, you could look at the various New Deal rulings for examples which completely broke with long-standing precedent or relied on cherry-picked history if you want to argue that those rulings were not unusual.
If it was legitimate why would you need to stack the court. A legitimate court’s decisions would be accepted, not changed by adding judges.
And the reason why the idea to stack was defeated was because it was viewed as a run around judicial independence (e.g. making it less legitimate).
New Deal proponents didn’t like those rulings but there was no question that any of the judges hadn’t been properly appointed, nor was there a huge break with past precedent on the same issue.
We’re living in a time where a majority of the court are acting in blatantly politicized ways, interfering on behalf of their party to prevent fair elections and flipping alleged legal theories whenever necessary to produce their desired outcome.
That is incredibly risky for an institution which has considerable power on the grounds that it not play games like that.
The same can be said today. Supreme Court appointments have always been political. Hell being "Borked" got its name from political games during Reagan.
Just because you don't think the process was "proper" doesn't change the fact they were all confirmed by the senate, as per the "proper" process.
Funny how many people complain about the politics of Supreme Court nominees only when it works against their own political views.
Jpow: Hold my beer.
But, conversely, the very notion that the federal government would even be able to ban state citizens individually from possessing arms would be just as alien to the authors - the constitution simply didn't grant that kind of power to it back then, not even close.
OTOH the notion that the right to keep and bear arms was widely perceived as individual by the American society as a whole has solid historical basis. Here's one simple thing anyone can do to verify this: go look up the list of 2A-like clauses in state constitutions, along with dates they were adopted:
https://gun-control.procon.org/state-constitutional-right-to...
You might notice that the earliest examples often specifically talk about individual rights, e.g.:
“The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned” (Pennsylvania, 1790; Kentucky, 1792)
Such language becomes rarer over time, though, until we get to the end of the last century.
Here are two books which cover the period discussion and the structure of the militia in early America. It’s a surprisingly under-covered part of our history.
https://www.amazon.com/Citizens-Arms-Militia-American-Societ...
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-well-regulated-mil...
The other thing we have to remember is how much more powerful modern weapons are. At the time this was written there was no concept of some lone wolf being able to mow down a crowd - they’d be limited to a first volley with the loaded, not especially precise or long-ranged, weapons they brought with them before getting subdued. The founders were thinking in terms of armies because period firearms were most effective in large coordinated groups.
There are some firearms part manufacturers that utilize 3d printing for part production. The company that made the first fully printed .45 1911 handgun uses printers to produce parts for sale.
I grew up in the rural midwest so my firearm experience goes back to the single digits of age. It was expected I would take the firearms and hunter safety courses that the state provided. I believe that such courses should at the very least be the minimum required for anyone purchasing a gun.
It’s also extremely uncommon for even farmers to have shotguns. They fall under a different, much much more restrictive category (similar to pistols) and are generally not used by farmers who instead opt for bolt action rifles for pest control.
Additionally, it’s worth pointing out that the idea that a country needs a “well armed militia” is very American (or at least, not at all Australian). None of my Australian friends or family want this, and everyone I know is very happy with our gun laws and the social safety they afford us. I’m sure there are some Australians that disagree, but the widespread sentiment is overwhelmingly that Howard did the right thing in rapidly enacting sweeping gun reform after the Port Arthur massacre.
Your assertion that a non-primary-producer can only own a bolt action rifle is also incorrect. Anyone with the appropriate license can own a pistol or a shotgun, the requirements around frequency of sporting event participation are just much greater for these categories of firearm as we consider them much more dangerous to society and so (reasonably, imo) dramatically limit their ownership to only those who actively and responsibly use them for sport.
Finally, the scrutiny a person comes under for owning a bolt (or lever) action rifle is fairly minor. You need a safe place to store it (the state provides requirements, and the police will inspect it before granting the license, and also perform occasional spot checks), you need to be a member of a sport shooting association, and you need to participate in one shooting competition that is certified by that association per year. This is easy to do for someone who wants to own a gun in the city, as the only legitimate reason to own a gun for a non-primary-producer is sport shooting at a shooting range anyway. The most valid complaint I can think of is regarding this is that the storage requirements make it practically impossible for a renter to own a gun, as the safe must be either really heavy (making it very expensive) or permanently affixed to the building (a modification most Australian rental agreements forbid).
And as the sibling points out, the US's track record for incarceration (and concentration camps) isn't exactly great either.
The problems were not in the overall handling in general (in fact, everyone I know is ok with the way they locked down, at least the first 12-18 months or so anyway), but in the lack of a coherent plan for how to exit that situation. The federal government abdicated it’s responsibility, relying heavily on states to handle things that require more scale and coordination than they are capable of.
These discussions would be more productive if you didn’t project your country’s desire for “freedom” at all costs onto those that make different social trade offs. We are not oppressed by a nation state and we don’t need you to liberate us, thanks.
> In an urban area there are different considerations that might weigh less heavily in favor of unrestricted access to firearms.
Law enforcement isn't available at the speed you need it in an emergency, anywhere. This is often recognized in the statement "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away". Law enforcement's job is to enforce the laws after the fact.
Animal control may be available at the required speeds just because animal-related emergencies generally allow for more time. If you have a mountain lion hanging around outside your door, you can just not go outside until it's gone.
Humans are extremely slow runners compared to most dangerous large animals. Even black bears, who really only attack to protect their cubs, can sprint a hell of a lot faster than humans.
While this is certainly true, we're talking about the difference between minutes and hours out in the country. I am reasonably comfortable walking around town unarmed because, whether it's accurate or not, I feel like there are enough police and people around that i'm not on my own. I do not have the same level of comfort 10 miles into the mountains.
>If you have a mountain lion hanging around outside your door, you can just not go outside until it's gone.
This might not be obvious to someone who hasn't dealt with this problem before but the issue is not just seeing one outside your house, it's coming across a moose with cubs or a bear on a hike 10 miles from home. That is a situation where being able to make a lot of noise best case or using deadly force worst case are the different between you living or not.
Then there's the mountain lions, coyotes, feral dogs, etcetc..
But that first issue is something that is plausibly different between urban and rural residents. Once you start talking about purposefully traveling far from your home, why would urban residents be any different from rural residents?
> I am reasonably comfortable walking around town unarmed because, whether it's accurate or not, I feel like there are enough police and people around that i'm not on my own.
This is a strange argument to make; surely the law should be concerned with whether your perception that you're safe in town really is accurate. "I should not be allowed to defend myself because I feel safe, even though in reality I am unsafe" is unlikely to convince anyone.
Granted... I don't feel I need a gun. But I am sympathetic to the idea for the folks that live nearer to animals larger than coyotes.
To people on the anti-gun-control side, NO such law is acceptable, because it's just the thin edge of the wedge.
"The pro-gun-control people are just going to pocket these gains, and push for more." Can you honestly say they're wrong?
In the current political climate, there's no reason for the anti-gun-control crowd to compromise with the pro-gun-control crowd: their opponents do not hold strong principles. There's no middle ground or end goal at which they would be satisfied. It's not like they're gonna throw their hands up and say "Welp, we finally passed the Ban Attachable Whatevers Act, this is enough gun control, let's go home now"
A big source of guns in areas that do have strict gun control in the US is other states. The recent shooting in the NYC subway, for example, was perpetrated by a man from Milwaukee, WI. With no such thing as internal border checks within the US, it would be quite difficult to maintain a two-tier gun control system.
Rural-urban borders are even more porous, if anything. So many roads to cover.
For a relatively recent acknowledgement of this; the Kentucky flag is a frontiersman shaking hands with a city slicker. This distinction between rural and urban was still very keenly felt, only two centuries ago.
That started to fray when the car allowed the city to engulf the country-side; people wanted to have their cake and eat it. The wealth and splendor of the city, with the bucolic serenity of the countryside. Cruel irony that the majority of our living environment is that we now have neither.
Meanwhile, most trains are pretty unpleasant--many cars wreak of piss, smoke, etc, people free-style rapping, trying to start fights (especially people of questionable sanity), etc. Buses can be better, but they're also a lot slower. If you have a family, own a dog, or have a disability, then it quickly becomes more practical to own a car, and even if we clean up public transit, police it properly, and expand it I'm not sure it would change the calculus--you would still likely be better off owning a car than relying solely on public transit and rideshare and so on.
Of course, I want Chicago to make those improvements to its public transit system if only to pull more people off the road more often, but I think there will always be a core group of people who need to own cars. I think if this is true for Chicago it will also be true for smaller US cities.
Important note, these kind of "only the bums use public transit" problems will go away if and only if non-bums start using public transit.
You can take the bums off the street (and put them in shelters) and your city will get a lot better. It's just very unpopular with progressives, who happen to be the voting base in big cities.
Eventually, things will get bad enough that the progressives leave, and then the streets can get cleaned up again.
NYC houses something like 95% of its homeless as well, which is why we have a lot less people on the streets than in places like LA or SF.
But shelter conditions are pretty miserable as I understand it so you can sort of understand the hold outs.
And we may just not have enough space. But yea, NYC's a big city, there's definitely some homeless, but I'm not sure my lived experience here is as dire as you make it sound.
That being said, some areas are certainly worse than others, and there's definitely some aggressive mentally ill people you'll see here and there.
This is true, and is the most clear example of how immoral the "housing first" policies in California are. It is a pipe dream that creates a horror show of homeless misery on the streets in LA and SF.
The vast majority of the city’s approximately 50,000 homeless people live in shelters — about 30,000 in family shelters, and about 18,000 in shelters for single adults.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/nyregion/nyc-homeless-eri...
There's your problem, I think. In the US, at least, the elements of our polity that favor "taking the bums off the street" are mostly unwilling to pay for things like shelters and mental hospitals.
Now - we certainly aren’t having a very productive public conversations about the obvious negative outcomes of that policy shift.
I don't see how anyone can claim that austerity and a deep cynicism toward the very idea of mental treatment didn't play major roles.
> You can take the bums off the street (and put them in shelters) and your city will get a lot better. It's just very unpopular with progressives,
Progressives are absolutely for building more low income housing, and making it available to street bums.
It's conservatives who fight 1/ building low income/subsidized housing, 2/ putting that housing in any neighbourhood where they might be in.
I don't know what happened in the 80s, or where the bums went. Maybe they all were shipped off to California, where it's warm, and now HN posters complain about IT'S progressive policies.
Maybe they all died and nobody in the 80s cared but now they do.
Either way, the economic forces that led to them being created in the first place never were fixed, so there is a steady supply of new bums throughout America. Why? What is Europe able to do to keep those people at bay that America isn't?
That’s why, I presume, cities that are thoroughly controlled by Democrats, like San Francisco or Seattle, have no trouble building low income housing and putting it all around the city, right? I mean, conservatives have no government representation in those cities whatsoever, so the Democrat politicians are simply listening to the wishes of their constituents, and as a result, low income housing projects sail through, and housing prices are low, correct?
More generally, the idea that Democrats cannot be conservative is incorrect, and not just in the leftist "Democrats are right wing" sort of sense. In an effective one-party state you see a lot of people who are ideologically much more aligned with the Republican party running as Democrats, and vice-versa in Republican-dominated states.
I can't speak to the opposite phenomenon, where places controlled by Republicans tend to have quite a few "liberal" Republicans, but it seems plausible that would be the case as well.
It’s also possible that SF tried more progressive policies, but found they didn’t work in certain cases (for example, the recent DA recall). Note that I’m not trying to litigate whether conservative policies would work better than progressive policies or any such thing.
Frankly, I find blaming “conservatives” for inability of coastal liberal cities to build anything to be rather ludicrous. It can only be true if you define “conservative” as someone who blocks construction in order to conserve status quo, but that only makes it a vacuous tautology. Truth is, there are plenty people in SF who are as progressive as it gets when it comes to both social and economical concerns, but are also not blind or stupid, and know that low income housing project in their neighborhood means dirt, decay, and constant petty crime. Instead of blaming people for trying to live in clean and peaceful places, try to figure out why low income housing projects in Vienna or Amsterdam don’t decay into dens of crime and despair in a way those same places in US do.
This right here. How have we constructed a system in which we can pour thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars into a neighborhood and make it a worse place? That's the big question, and until it's answered I can't blame people for voting in their own best interests.
Look at Calle 24 in SF for a good example - in order to preserve diversity, a progressive organization has blocked a lot of projects that would add low-income housing to their neighborhoods. In addition, progressive mayors and city governments make it comparatively pleasant to be a bum in these areas - you can do whatever you want, including committing petty crimes, and you will get generous amounts of money for it. Economics 101 tells you that when you subsidize something, you get more of it. It's true for solar panels, and it's true for homelessness.
By the way, what happened in the 80's in NYC is that the professional class had enough and started electing conservatives. Those are the people who actually cleaned up the city by forcing homeless people to take shelter beds (they often don't want to end up in shelters because shelters have strict rules), and making it unpleasant to be homeless. At the same time, they invested in things like brighter lights, subway cleanups, and other nonsense that improves quality of life (but is not "fair" according to progressives). They also empowered police to enforce criminal laws on petty criminals.
So yes, this is a problem with politicians who claim to be progressive. I used to call myself "progressive" until I learned that this is where "progressive" politicians lead things. As a progressive yourself, it's up to you to call this behavior out if you want people to think that your ideology actually helps people.
California has high street homeless because housing is expensive not only in cities but everywhere in their exurbs as well. Most homeless people in California are locals who just can't afford their rent; they're not "bussed in" and didn't move for the weather.
Being mean to homeless people has very little effect compared to giving them homes. California governments are good at being mean to them; the police constantly raid them and steal all their possessions. It of course doesn't do anything.
Note, it's not related to drugs because the parts of the country with the worst drug problems (like West Virginia) don't really have big homeless populations, since they can still afford somewhere to live.
Also spent about 3 hours outside smoking until 4 am and only had a single person approach me to bum some change and left with no issue when I told him I didn't carry cash. I have no doubt there are rough parts of the city, but its not all lawlessness and mentally unwell in the streets everywhere.
It's somehow more important to give someone the right to sleep on a street corner at noon (something I witnessed just today, in an area where there usually aren't many/any homeless people), than it is to help get them on their feet, plus allow the rest of us to feel safe and not have to deal with garbage, human shit, and needles all over.
[0] That's the other thing, though: I doubt we have enough shelter beds to cover all the homeless people here. Yet another thing that needs to be fixed. I hear NYC is able to house around 95% of their homeless, and we're a much smaller city.
On top of this, if you are addicted to drugs, you might be unable to safely detox. Cutting cold turkey in a shelter sounds like a nightmare and I wouldn’t be surprised if a bum would prefer remaining addicted on the street than vomiting/sweating/sick in a shelter full of strangers where you’re too vulnerable to fight back if anything goes wrong.
More realistically, I’ve known folks who refuse to go to shelters because the shelters demand them to give up their pets, aka their family and what’s getting them through the traumatizing experience of homelessness. Or they’re told to give up their possessions for being too bulky or much, even though there’s no guarantee they might not need all that gear back if they’re later kicked out or age out or housing falls through.
Literally incarcerating people just for being too poor to afford decent housing is also ethically abhorrent, of course, but it's also not the most effective way to reduce the problems that are bothering you.
You don't make eye contact and keep to yourself, and nothing happens to you. If something does happen, every single train car has an intercom tied to EMS, and every single bus has a driver who is trained on how to deal with these situations when they do inevitably come up (pull over and call EMS). If you got beat up I'm sure you'd have a case against the city and the city attorney would probably be happy to settle and pay you versus deal with a lawsuit and potentially more seriously have to address something. The odds of you getting killed are just too low to even seriously consider, you are probably a lot more likely to die crossing the street to get to the bus stop than you are to die on the bus involved in some situation.
>You don't make eye contact and keep to yourself, and nothing happens to you.
This sounds like you are living your life in fear.
No, it's not great, and I wish our elected representatives would actually do things to fix these situations, but the idea of "I need to carry a gun" to solve this "problem" is just bonkers.
You don't even _know_ who you're driving next to on a freeway. The driver next to you may be driving home dead tired, "microsleep"ing along the way. They could be very drunk, trying desperately to get home and crawl into bed. Maybe they got fired at their workplace cause they were on meth. Someone driving might have a seizure and lose control of their vehicle. You can just look at traffic crash statistics; the US is the worst developed country for traffic incidents by far. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean their conditions don't actually exist.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see America pay actual attention to the folks with these physical and medical conditions, and the fact that we don't is terrible. But stuffing them into cars or forcing them to an underclass where they can't drive isn't the answer. And it's not particularly unsafe to take transit.
See Lozito v. New York City.
https://okhovatlawfirm.com/train-accidents/whos-liable-if-yo...
https://hhjtrialattorneys.com/domestic-violence-in-californi...
https://trellis.law/rulings/%22LOS-ANGELES-COUNTY-METROPOLIT...
In another city I have even called 911 and been put on hold for 5 minutes. In the nation's capital after being attacked unprovoked while running at dusk in a large central park but managed to barely slip out of his grip and book it. Thinking back it would have been very easy to make a body disappear there without a trace. Zero follow up or news about attacks occurring there. The 911 dispatcher was annoyed that she had to be bothered by me. I should have known better I guess after seeing a car laying in the middle of Missouri Ave with all four wheels sheared off after a police chase. Thankfully it's easy to protect yourself with a concealed handgun. Just kidding, it's illegal to possess or use weapons in Washington D.C.
/this was in Dallas Texas about a month ago
Totally innocent student shot dead on a trip to a very busy store in a very "nice" (expensive) area.
I pay attention to the get-away situation of areas now to assess risk of criminal activity spawning.
I suspect you’re making a couple of errant assumptions:
1. Looking at the sheer number of homicides in the US without accounting for the US’s very large population (our rates are still high for a 1st world country, but not as much as they seem without the population adjustment)
2. Assuming that crime is evenly distributed across our country. Most of the violent crime in the US happens in so-called “inner cities”. Most of the country is very safe, but a few places are very unsafe.
Basically the US is a biiiigggg and diverse country by 1st world standards.
Those people on the streets that you're 'swimming in' - the homeless, the untreated mental health cases, the drug addicts, the ex cons, the unemployed, the slum dwellers - they are not criminals. Except where catch-22 laws make their existence criminal.
They are the marginalized, and made so by the day-to-day actions and inactions of their fellow citizens who look down on them, block them from participating in society at every opportunity.
There are well known solutions to these problems: economic, social, and humane. But as long as the voting public can keep coming up with reasons these people do not deserve a proper solution to their problems, you're all going to have to live with the consequences.
Why is that? It's not like they don't have their share of unemployment, mental health or drug addiction.
In most cases nothing surprising - just well funded and unhobbled versions of things most North Americans already know about but vote against. Just listen to your local Social Workers and Nurses, they usually have a very good idea of what's missing or critically underfunded. Here are some examples:
Homelessness and unemployment: Various social safety nets, affordable housing, back to work and education programs, well funded social work programs
Mental health: Treatment, accessibility, in- and outpatient programs, well funded social work programs
Drug addiction: Decriminalization, access to safe use, needle exchanges and treatment programs, well funded social work programs
Ex cons: Stop giving people lifelong records for drug offenses. Re-entry education and training programs. etc. etc.
Maybe you live in a war zone, and a glock really is necessary for you to make it from your condo to your armored car. But until you start looking beyond just helping yourself, things are just going to get worse.
Then the people who care about it (read: not poor) will pay to ride the bum-free version, and then more people will use it, and it will begin to improve.
Of course, that cannot be done because then it's called "making the poor version crappy" and so everyone is forced to use the crappy version and it remains crappy forever.
Enforcement is also nearly nonexistent, and I expect it's even more nonexistent since COVID started. In 12 years of riding transit in SF, I've only once witnessed a group of transit employees board a bus to check that everyone had paid. Anyone who rides transit frequently (and doesn't pay) is likely saving money even if they have to pay the vanishingly rare fine if they're caught.
I've often suspected that metro fares are basically an excuse for the cops to kick bums/undesirables off the train.
These are societal problems. More people using transport doesn't make people with issues simply poof into thin air or suddenly en masse take up private transport to go places to free up public transport for the sane. More asylums would certainly improve the situation getting unwell people into care and safety, along with better drug treatment programs for the addicted, but these aren't transit department problems to solve. Even if security got harsh on the train platforms and meth users were readily kicked out of the train, it would just amount to kicking the can down the road without having a mechanism to institutionalize more people or force people who don't want to change their lifestyle into care.
People actually smoke in the train cars? I'm curious is this a common occurrence then?
https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/uu6gki/metro_in...
Its one thing if you need to leave this sort of situation with a train being able to step into another car, but with a bus it could be as long as a half hour before the next one shows if its off peak hours.
> Replace several street parking spaces (in a neighborhood with hundreds of spots) to put in a bike lane? Punishment.
Drivers in general aren't going to object to a particular bike lane, although obviously drivers who park on that block probably will (and understandably so). Also, "with hundreds of spots" isn't significant if there are hundreds more drivers than spots in that neighborhood.
> Cut ten minutes off bus travel time by installing a dedicated bus lane, at the expense of a minute or two extra for car traffic?
I don't know. I would be open minded if you could convince me that the bus lane is actually going to move more people (yes, the capacity is greater, but that doesn't guarantee that the throughput will be greater, for example if there aren't enough buses running to saturate capacity or if the buses aren't full or etc).
> Make drivers pay money to store their cars on public streets? Punishment
Well, they are public streets, which suggests that everyone pays for them. But at least in my major city, we do pay to park our cars on public streets, once in the form of a city sticker, once through taxes, and (in many cases) again through meters. We could talk about drivers paying more for parking, which will of course be unpopular among drivers, but it's not like cyclists are going to line up to finance bike lanes nor are public transit users likely to support a rate increase to finance improvements to buses and trains. Everyone wants the public to pay for the infrastructure they use, but public financing of infrastructure they don't use is less popular.
Right but if the street only pushes for a single modeshare is it really a public street or is it a street for that modeshare?
> once in the form of a city sticker, once through taxes, and (in many cases) again through meters.
Right and transit users/cyclists pay the same road taxes that motorists do and also pay per transit trip. Motorists just pay for a gas tax in lieu of a transit trip. Importantly, motorists are payed a hefty subsidy by the Federal Government for any highway project but transit projects are not. Moreover this piece of funding does absolutely nothing to benefit anyone who does not drive or use a bus.
> but it's not like cyclists are going to line up to finance bike lanes nor are public transit users likely to support a rate increase to finance improvements to buses and trains
... Who do you think are advocating for these new bike lanes and transit lines?
So it's unclear to me where your cynicism of:
> I don't know. I would be open minded if you could convince me that the bus lane is actually going to move more people
comes from. If anything it's more indicative of the parent's opinion that drivers perceive any change in fees to be punishment.
I mean, I don't think anyone would dispute that sidewalks are a public resource even though I can't drive my dirtbike on them. Just because a public resource has a designated use doesn't make it private or otherwise less-public.
> Right and transit users/cyclists pay the same road taxes that motorists do and also pay per transit trip.
Where on earth do cyclists pay per trip? Anyway, I pointed out that drivers pay for street parking (contrary to the parent's implication that they do not), and you're refuting that with "cyclists and transit users also pay for their transit" which doesn't actually address my claim. In other words, arguing that drivers pay for street use doesn't imply that users of other modes of transit don't pay for their transit.
> ... Who do you think are advocating for these new bike lanes and transit lines?
Advocating for new lanes and lines is not the same for advocating that those new lanes and lines are financed by cyclists and public transit users exclusively. This seems like it should have been obvious...
> So it's unclear to me where your cynicism of ... comes from. If anything it's more indicative of the parent's opinion that drivers perceive any change in fees to be punishment.
Well, as I explained above, just because someone votes against dedicated transit lanes doesn't mean they're perceiving them as "punishing drivers". For example, intuition suggests that they reduce the overall throughput of a street (at least in Chicago, buses aren't running at capacity, so increasing the bus capacity isn't obviously going to increase street capacity, especially at the cost of a lane). So absent information to contradict my intuition, I would vote against a proposal for a dedicated bus lane on the basis that it seems like it would reduce the throughput of a street, not because I perceive it as "punishment".
But only car drivers get to dump their vehicles there. If street parking was open to motorbikes, bicycles, and pedestrians leaving their luggage then I'd be a lot more sympathetic to that argument.
> But at least in my major city, we do pay to park our cars on public streets, once in the form of a city sticker, once through taxes, and (in many cases) again through meters.
All of which still adds up to much less than the land value you're taking up, generally.
> We could talk about drivers paying more for parking, which will of course be unpopular among drivers, but it's not like cyclists are going to line up to finance bike lanes nor are public transit users likely to support a rate increase to finance improvements to buses and trains.
Where I live cyclists are very happy to pay for decent parking, and public transit users already pay for every journey (in contrast to drivers who pay some flat costs but don't pay any extra for using city center roads, which creates the wrong incentives).
This is silly and factually incorrect. First of all, you can park your motorbike on a street (and maybe even your bike, I really don't know). More importantly, just because one particular public resource is reserved for a particular purpose doesn't make it "not public" nor do we expect users to pay for it. For example, public schools are still "public" and we don't make families pay to send their kids there, instead the whole public pays whether or not they use those schools. Similarly, we don't charge pedestrians to use sidewalks despite that motorcycles aren't permitted to use them. Same deal with bike lanes--cyclists aren't charged for them, the whole public pays for them.
> All of which still adds up to much less than the land value you're taking up, generally.
I would imagine it's a little bit less (considering it's a public resource and the public pays for some of it), but meters can run $8/hour whereas an off-street parking space is often ~$300/month in downtown Chicago (or so it was a few years ago when I lived there, not sure what has happened with inflation). Of course, not all streets are metered and meters don't run around the clock, so it's not a super easy calculation. In whichever case, cyclists are may a much lower share for their use of bike lanes, and that's fine--it's a public resource and the public should pay for it.
> Where I live cyclists are very happy to pay for decent parking
But are they happy to pay for use of the bike lanes like you're proposing cars do for use of street parking? The point is that no one wants to pay to use a public resource.
> public transit users already pay for every journey (in contrast to drivers who pay some flat costs but don't pay any extra for using city center roads, which creates the wrong incentives)
I'm not following your point about incentives--it's not like public transit users pay more during rush hour. And drivers could pay more to use the city center roads ("congestion tax"), but that's generally considered regressive because it effectively reserves city center driving for people who can afford the congestion tax.
Public resources should be for public benefit. Sometimes there's a legitimate public interest in something that only a subset of the population uses directly - e.g. there's a general public interest in having children raised well, it's something that even people without children benefit from. When public money is spent on something that mostly benefits the rich or the middle-class, pointed questions are and should be asked about that.
And I don't think there's any general principle that public resources are always free to use. Public transport is generally charged for. Publicly funded museums and art galleries are free in some cities but not in others. Public sports facilities are almost always paid, at least for private individuals to use (they might be used for free by a municipal team or club). Even stuff like getting a copy of your tax records often costs money.
> But are they happy to pay for use of the bike lanes like you're proposing cars do for use of street parking? The point is that no one wants to pay to use a public resource.
It seems a little unfair to compare drivers' parking to cyclists' road use. Where I live there's virtually no street parking (for bikes or cars), everyone pays for parking, and no-one pays for road use (except for expressways). If we were talking about replacing paid car parking with free bike parking then I can see how that might be seen as unfair, but that's not the issue AIUI.
> I'm not following your point about incentives--it's not like public transit users pay more during rush hour.
Public transit does cost more during rush hour in many places. More to the point, congested lines or lines that use a lot of expensive land tend to cost more, whereas there's no equivalent for roads.
> And drivers could pay more to use the city center roads ("congestion tax"), but that's generally considered regressive because it effectively reserves city center driving for people who can afford the congestion tax.
Right, and this I think is the real issue; people see attempts to make drivers pay their fair share as regressive because they assume driving as the default. Whereas at least in the city, being able to afford a car at all puts you well above the bottom.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen any sort of data that backed up cars over buses as a more efficient transit system other than people comparing their personal trip time as equal or greater in importance than everyone else having transit times reduced
I never made any claims that cars are more efficient. I only claimed that most tranist expansions are too little to make a significant difference.
I think some of that is because public transit is unsexy, so people come out with dubious comparisons or at least ones which misleadingly appear to support a pro-public-transit conclusion. For example, I saw a study that showed that a dedicated bus lane has a far greater capacity than using the same lane for car transit. I completely believe the finding, but people pass share it around as evidence that dedicated bus lanes are a no brainer; however, this ignores that buses are rarely capacity constrained so adding a dedicated bus lane would likely decrease the throughput of the street even though the capacity increases (of course if more people start taking the bus as a result, then maybe the throughput could increase?).
I want public transit to work out, but my experiences with public transit and driving in Chicago make me realize that public transit has a long way to come (not only with respect to all of the unpleasantness of public transit, but even with sheer convenience--driving in Chicago is much faster, I can bring my dog and more easily transport other things, etc).
I'm not sure it's feasible for most people to do without owning a car, but we probably can get to a world where people need to use their car less, and we can also work on improving car transit too. Work on city/suburb design that encourages cars to take highways rather than city streets, continue making cars safer and lighter, etc.
The problem is not public transport, the problem is not homeless people, the problem is not mentally unwell people. The problem is poverty and there is a solution: housing first policies and healthcare for everyone.
I've been living in Germany for quite a while.
It's about the same distance from my home to the airport as O'Hare is to downtown Chicago. About 25km.
The top speed of the L is 55mph/90kph. Plus all the dwell time on the route, it takes 41 min and 17 stops to get to downtown.
For me, there is a regional train that gets me pretty close to home (10min walk) in 17 minutes and 0 stops.
From there if I have lots of luggage there's a bus and a tram that get me right to my block.
Chicago needs to vastly speed up their trains, and provide express trains between major destinations. 20 minutes from airport to downtown is completely feasible with basic commuter trains that can reach 160kph like the Stadler KISS trains that Caltrain will be using.
Why go this far when it's pretty clear that a happy medium is possible? Seems to me it's clear that a place like NYC does well enough at accommodating density, foot traffic, public transport, bicycling, and still allows a modicum of (usually inconvenient but still possible) auto traffic.
As a native New Yorker, I have to disagree.
Your standard bike ride in NYC is a mix of exhilaration, care and outright terror because the motor vehicles just don't pay any attention at all to bicyclists.
I've been hit (from behind) by a bus without ever changing lanes. I've had taxi passengers open their doors three feet in front of me (no way to stop or get out of the way) and way more close calls than I care to remember.
Cars are a blight on the city.
I'm sure it is a great idea to divide the people of a country in city-livers and non-city-livers. It will bring wealth and happyness in this new world. And maybee the next big civil war...
I don't live in a city. I don't have or need a car. I can do nearly everything with a 10 minute walk. There are two city centers available to me within a 20 minute train ride and many more with a 1.5h train ride.
You don't need cars to have "access" to cities.
And then cities become prisons, with no escape even at the weekends.
The people waging war on the car rarely seem to be car-free themselves. There seems to be an attitude of 'To deal with climate change, pack all the poors into tiny apartments in megacities and take their transport away. Then the wealthy people can have the rest of the planet and its open roads!'
Nope. It just means you take the train to your weekend getaway or the airport or the long term car parking or whatever.
Of course that's not feasible anywhere, that's why there's the concept of Park and Ride. You take the train to a station which has a big car parking and you can use your car from there. The usual use is for people commuting by car to be able to leave their cars there and take the train into the city, in order to avoid traffic (and this concept gets abused in the US and Canada with train stations and lines only for that single use case and unusable for anyone without a car), but it can go both ways.
Going on a hike where you don't need to go back to the place you started is pretty convenient.