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Comment by ketzo | Hacker News Reader

This doesn't quite answer your trend, but personal anecdote:

I recently switched jobs, and as part of my job interview process, I was pretty firm about only looking for companies that were working at least part of the week in the office. I just really thrive on in-person work.

Fast forward a few weeks... and I ended up taking a job with a startup that was fully remote. I loved their product, loved the founders, loved the team I had met; I figured I would make it work.

Two months in and I have hardly noticed that I'm not working in person. There's just such a huge difference when you're working at BigCo remotely and working at an eight-person startup. Particularly at my company, people just really give a shit and it shows. I feel genuinely connected to and engaged with my teammates. Makes remote work a lot better.

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I'm happy for you!

Out of curiosity, did your current housing situation provide the space for a comfortable and productive home office, or is this unexpected development putting pressure on your housing situation? (If you're part of a trend, that has implications for preferred housing layout and square footage. And, of course people in different housing situations should be expected to respond differently to fully-remote opportunities..)

(FWIW I'm single in a 600 sq ft apartment. I'm also a manager. My workspace needs for desk layout, equipment, and quiet are minimal compared to individual contributors, but I sometimes think of the perceived status implications when my humble abode appears on video, though I've reflected and don't really care..)

Edit to add regarding status implications: believe it or not, a candidate I was interviewing actually blurted out "You're a manager in tech! How come you don't have a nicer house?". That got into my head briefly, until I decided that I don't care.

Can people really tell anything about your living situation from your teams call background, though? Just aim your camera at a neutral wall and you're good to go. You could be living in a giant palace or a inner city slum and nobody would know the difference.

I recently left a large tech company. It was very obvious who was "higher up" in the food chain, as the home offices of Director+ level folks were generally larger and much more nicely decorated. At VP-level, they almost resembled super-villain lairs.

Yes, at my firm one has a very extensive library behind them complete with ladders and everything.

The marker of low socioeconomic status in a remote environment is disruptions to your video call. Kids crying, people walking through your background, people yelling, neighborhood dogs barking, etc. is something that doesn't get into your call when you're rich.

Mostly right except for kids. All up and down the org chart at my firm there’s been interruptions by children haha. Also, sometimes things just happen no matter who you are. There was a US Supreme Court hearing over video chat and someone on the call flushed a toilet.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/06/politics/toilet-flush-sup...

Sure, but the richer you are the less it happens, because you have staff to take care of kids, etc. Although I have noticed that kids appear on camera at the most senior and junior levels of the company. If I am working with an low-level assistant to get something done she might have a kid pop on camera and she's super embarrassed about it. If the CFO has his kid wander into the room in an all hands he picks her up and shows her off on camera. You'd like to think that this could normalize it for the assistant but that's of course not how power works.

Heh, a neutral wall in my 600 sq ft place? I have such limited layout options to put my desk, that would be an additional challenging constraint.

Virtual backgrounds are popular in my workspace, and I think a more general solution to the issue. I'm not a huge fan of virtual backgrounds, they make things even more artificial, anyhow I would use them occasionally but for the fact that Google Meet does not support them in Firefox.

A simple blur can be a good compromise if you want to hide your room. Although personally I just make sure it's tidy and allow people to see it.

Yep, simple blur seems most classy, thanks for mentioning that as it wasn't directly implied by "virtual background". To be clear, Google Meet does not support a simple blur on Firefox. (I could use a virtual camera, but as I mentioned in another comment.. I don't care enough)

If you're concerned just get a roll up picture or greenscreen for your background

Yeah, I have my office pretty well arranged as a "set" but I do have some very utilitarian metal file cabinets behind me. I was mulling making furniture changes but ended up just draping a fabric hanging over the cabinets from a curtain rod. Take about 30 seconds if I need to get into the cabinets for some reason.

I care less about meetings but I also shoot some video so needed some sort of decent setting anyway.

I'm not OP, but I'm a manager that's 100% WFH at this point. I had a spare bedroom to devote to the workspace, and that's been a lifesaver, since (for me) part of maintaining WLB has been the ability to physically change spaces as a way of reinforcing that I'm no longer in "work mode" before/after certain times. Even without a separate room, having a dedicated work area might be a good idea to help with that balance if that's a problem for you.

Yep, I look forward to upgrading my housing at some point, for these great reasons and more..

Buy a smart bulb for your WFH desk. Pick a color (example: bright white) that you only use when you are working. you might not notice anything at first, but after a while it really helps with shifting your mentality into or out of work mode very quickly. Very helpful at the start of a busy day, or the end of a rough day.

Source: I did WFH for about 2 years before the pandemic in a 1 bedroom apartment that I shared with someone

I did this for sleep hygiene reasons because my office is windowless (the light goes from cool, to warm, to red as the night goes on) and as a side effect I stopped working so late because it was easier to notice "hey, it's 6 pm, I should probably stop for the day".

Great idea. I double up my office space for work and for personal projects / hobbies outside of work (same desk and chair, different computers), but didn't consider having a dedicated colored light for it.

I think I'll leave normal lighting for work, but then do a more playful color for hobbies, like purple or blue or red or something. I already have the light even, I just haven't been using it.

Our HR team recommended having an alarm, that plays calming music, which starts 15 minutes before your day ends so you don't stay past your time.

Personally, I don't really have an issue with staying late (a little after 5:30 I need to start dinner so it can be ready by 6:30-7:00, I'm kind of a slow cook).

My motivation to try this is more for shifting to hobby mode and being productive when I go back after dinner, as I've been super unproductive after work lately.

Something I never got around to setting up that you might find interest in if going for a few different "modes" is using NFC tags / stickers to trigger the light change. So you can have a couple stickers on the wall or w.e and tap you phone to work or hobby or normal and have things change automatically.

going into the phone isnt really a big deal, but I always felt setting up a physical trigger would be way smoother mentally

My wife and I both went remote and the start of the pandemic and both of our respective companies have decided to keep our positions fully remote. We have a dedicated office space in our home that we share. I don’t think we would have been successful in WFH without the dedicated space. It feels like a place where work gets done. I can sit out in our living room, dining room, or kitchen but I find I am just not as productive in those spaces.

Living in NYC, I can't tell if by "status implications" you mean that a 600 sq ft apartment is swanky or cheap.

Ah, I meant cheap (in terms of apartment space and interior, not in terms of rent). I'm in a nice neighborhood in Oakland, CA fwiw.

600 sq ft in Oakland isn't that far off from 600 sq ft in NYC at this point. it's cheaper, but it's getting there.

I've thought about moving back to the Bay, but I can get two to four times as much square feet at the same price, and I've been working mostly remote for almost 20 years.

I've worked remote for a long time. It's very common to see people working from their home bedrooms.

First-time remote workers will often overthink their office, but seasoned remote workers don't really care. It's worth taking a minute to tidy up the room in your background, but nobody is going to be judging you for not having a dedicated home office.

> I'm also a manager. My workspace needs for desk layout, equipment, and quiet are minimal compared to individual contributors

At least in software, the space needs for everyone are fairly minimal. There are some creative solutions for monitor arms that can reduce the not-in-use footprint of a desk even further.

Oh, I wouldn't think anyone would judge me, especially these days (plus there's blurred backgrounds etc).

But a separate room I use for work helps me keep work separate from personal life when working from home. If I didn't have/couldn't afford that, I'd at least have a separate desk I use only for work. If not that either... it would be harder for me.

They'll judge you poorly for spotty or slow internet on calls more than the background of your home office.

>They'll judge you poorly for spotty or slow internet on calls

Of course, realize that there's a good chance there's nothing they can do about that.

Trying different providers and even different routers helped me. Wi-Fi is less reliable generally.

Many of us don't have a choice of different providers. And while I agree that WiFi in particular may not be as good as a wired connection, many people also don't have an Ethernet jack near where they work at home. (I do personally next to where I take my calls.)

I've actually had good luck with an "ethernet over power" device in my WFH setup.

eg https://www.amazon.com/Powerline-Ethernet-Adapter-Extender-T...

but in general, yes, I agree, I have had problems with network connectivity in my WFH setup that are very difficult to do something about, and which are very frustrating to all involved, it is a problem.

I've extended WiFi with a power line adapter. It works but I had to try a few plug combinations for it to work. I know with X10 (yes, long time ago), you could have issues spanning your electrical box from (maybe?) one side to the other.

The instructions that came with the one I got say that it should be on the same circuit or whatever. I am pretty sure mine is not. It works well anyway. Which surprised me, I honestly didn't have high hopes for it, but it has made my zoom calls more reliable vs wifi in my office location.

For most US residences, there is at most 1 wired broadband provider to the house (coaxial cable), and they provide an unspecified anemic upload bandwidth.

Also, most video chat apps have filters where you can make your background look like a couple of different options. A standard, clean, organized home office being one.

Although filters have gotten better (more precise, faster responding to movement), I still don't like them for cutting off hands or things I hold up for the camera to see. So, I hang a curtain behind me, since I don't have a wall.

Yeah, I tend to agree. And tbh I kind of like the glimpse into a person's life that a non-filtered background gives (in much the same way that idle chit chat helps me "connect" with a coworker).

This is actually due to the camera having a difficulty distinguishing whether your hand belongs to you or not. One thing you can do if you still want a fake background is to get one of the white photo background sheets that professional photographers use and put it behind you. It makes it a lot easier for the camera to tell what’s you and what isn’t and also really helps to prevent the bleeding effect that happens around where your face meets the background.

> perceived status implications when my humble abode appears

I would rather focus on the quality of someone's work than "status".

Also, you can't find a "neutral" wall or window in 600sq?!

At such square footage I would imagine most wall space is taken up by furniture.

Window is kinda bad since direct light makes cameras bad.

For reference 600 sq ft is 55.742 sq m, which is a decent appartement for a single person in Paris, or a couple without kids. I've been to numerous apartments of a similar size and you can easily find a neutral(-ish, there can be a bookcase(??) and it's still neutral) wall.

I've been remote since I graduated from college about 17 years ago, and I didn't get a dedicated office until 8 years ago. Before then my computer desk was in my bedroom. Sometimes a rather small bedroom.

> my humble abode appears on video

Isn't blurring the background, or using a virtual background, nearly universal now? (Around me, it is.)

It's fairly popular in my organization yes, but too much trouble for me until/unless Google Meet supports it in Firefox.

Looks like it's supported in Google Meets (as well as Zoom):

https://support.google.com/meet/answer/10058482?hl=en&co=GEN...

For me, it does. I run Linux on a laptop with an integrated GPU.

Oh my, what’s wrong with my Mac?? I’ll dig into this. Thanks!

Good lighting, a decent (almost anything other than the built-in) webcam and using software blur on your background will give you a better setup than 90% of other folks for not that much money.

I live in a 48sqm apartment and never even thought about this. I work usually either from my little desk and kneeling chair in my bedroom or my couch. My remote coworkers at different levels have all kinds of stuff in their backgrounds - pets, kids, books, walls, posters, clutter, paintings, and thinking back I have not once found myself judging them negatively _or_ positively for it. A candidate judging your house in an interview seems super awkward - for the candidate. What a weird thing to comment on.

I judge people who still live in tiny apartments in downtown cores after 2 years of lockdowns and remote work. I don't want coworkers who are so stalwarts they stick with a bad plan for years. Get out of the city.

I don't think you need to worry - those people probably don't want a presumptuous grump judging their living choices as a coworker either :)

i'll be enjoying my city life, thanks :)

I live in the city because I love living in a city. So many things to do, not needing to own a car (I hate driving). Having the whole world a few steps away.

I need the buzz of a city around me. I lived in a tiny town in rural Ireland before and I was depressed and withering away. As I don't have a family I need more life around me than people who lock the front door at 6pm and settle down with the family for the night. Good for them but I don't work like that.

And yes I work remote 80% of the time, the office is 20 mins on the subway away but I prefer home. Especially since we moved to this horrible hotdesking setup at the office. If I could get away with it I'd never go :)

Not everyone's preferences and needs are the same.

> A candidate judging your house in an interview seems super awkward

It is super awkward to imply your interviewer should have a wealthier zoom background, but its by far not the worst thing I've heard blurted out in an interview. Interviews are stressful, and people in this industry (myself included) are pretty awkward.

I had been working from home for a year and a half already in a very comfortable WFH setup, and knew I would have one going forward.

That, obviously, makes a huge difference: I didn't need an office to work in, I just wanted one.

Not OP. When I was working in another field and working part time, remote developer I had my desk set up in my bedroom. When I went fulltime I converted a small, approx 5 ft x 7ft, closet to an office. I shoehorned a standup desk and a bookshelf in it. I have wired internet, desktop computer, laptop, everything I need. Is it the most comfortable, meh..sometimes yes sometimes no. But when my door is closed my wife and kids know that I can't be bothered. I do spend a lot of time away from the "office", sitting in the livingroom, on the patio etc but that I feel is part of the perks about WFH.

I live in a 700sqft basement suite with wife and 2 kids and am a manager myself.

My office is (part of) the living room and I like showing to my team mates my human side all the time: that's who I am, so, I'm very happy when the children climb on me during meetings.

Yeah, sometimes I have to deal with challenging situations, but overall, it's been going well.

People expectations world-wide adjusted with covid,I'm really glad because it fits my lifestyle.

I had a very similar experience when looking for roles in the fall. I explicitly wanted to makes sure there was an office to go to and ended up (via a personal) connection, applying for a fully remote role where there was a local office I could work from if I felt the need.

Seven months later, I've gone to the office a total of 4 times, and two of those were because I had other appointments/errands nearby that day. I've surprised myself at how much I didn't miss the office environment.

I have had the same experience! Remote work at a big company is miserable

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