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Comment by orobinson | Hacker News Reader

Interesting. I was very into PC gaming in my teens and look back on that time quite fondly. Certainly not with any regret or a feeling that I wasted my time.

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Same here. If you're saying "that time I spend gaming was wasted time", you'd better have a really good story about what you would have done instead, excluding any kind of hindsight magic.

I don't think there's anything bad with gaming in your free time - at any age. In the end, why shouldn't one just enjoy whatever life's possibilities are? It's obviously important to keep all other areas of life under control, but what's bad about enjoying doing something - even if it's not productive - especially when you're young. This is quite philosphical, but I've found the idea of optimistic nihilism very helpful for having an overall more relaxed view on life https://you.com/search?q=optimistic+nihilism

Why "especially when you're young"?

Arguably, any consumption activities are better done when old, and investment activities when young. Effort when young pays off with tons of compounding over your lifespan. Effort when old is not as important, and so pure consumption non-productive activities are probably better enjoyed when old, are they not? Especially if it is something like videogames that doesn't exactly require some great physical abilities.

There are a ton of low-effort forms of entertainment available today. It's easy for them to dominate choice. If you take those away, other things will emerge and grab your interest. If you are even a remotely interested person you'll find stuff. A few months ago I was at the beach without as much technology access and enjoyed it so much that I put myself on a media diet after. I suddenly felt more excitement about programming projects I had started but not finished, reading books, cello practice, little projects around my house and garden. One thing all these things had in common is that they left be feeling better when I was done with them. That just doesn't happen for me with most video games and movies. But it's just so much easier to fall into the couch and watch Netflix or grab the controller.

I really think this thread has to specify the types of video games it speaks about. Because games range from CoD-like X-to-Win shooters with endless changing backgrounds to something more elaborate and harder than real life activities, while being relatively short.

You are right that this makes a difference. I think the difference might be relatively small though. At best the experience can be comparable to having read a great fiction book (Disco Elysium, Life is Strange) or a good social experience like playing with your friends online while using voice chat. Online games with total strangers can be challenging and fun, but also a blur. I've spent way too much time playing Rocket League for example and my experience in hindsight would have been the same off I had only played for like 5-10 hours. And then there are pretend-work games like Factorio, Kerbal Space Program or even more obvious Zachtronic games like Shenzhen IO. The latter might be great exercise for non-programmers, but you don't actually accomplish anything and still exhausted the same parts of your brain.

I like this post. It rings a bell with me when you wrote: <<But it's just so much easier to fall into the couch and watch Netflix or grab the controller.>>

I cannot put a finger on it, but what is the difference between (a) reading a newspaper, magazine, book (fiction or non-fiction) and (b) playing video games or streaming films / TV shows? I cannot put a finger on it, but (a) reading activates some part of my brain that (b) streaming does not. Why? I'm not sure. I never read any research about it. One thing I can say: Watching documentaries is different than other stuff. Again: Not sure why. It might only be me and my brain that feels this way.

Also, this part: <<I suddenly felt more excitement about programming projects I had started but not finished, reading books, cello practice, little projects around my house and garden.>> Again, I cannot put a finger on it, but what really is the difference between these activities and playing video games or streaming films / TV shows? On the surface, not much, but the emotional satisfaction is so different when finishing a cello piece or novel versus a streamed season of a TV show.

Playing a game means mastering skills in a purely fictional world with purely fictional sets of rules and challenges. It doesn't translate into your life, expect in the most abstract way [1]. Whereas reading a newspaper, magazine or a book deepens your understanding of the world you live in.

[1] The flipside is that it can teach you bad habits as well. If the result of the game does not matter in any way, you have no incentive to try hard at it, and can just coast, turn the game off when you're frustrated etc. This is not how real-life is (coasting and difficulty avoidance don't work as well), so games can teach damaging habits. It's better in team multiplayer games, because in-game peer pressure can make you get out of your comfort zone.

If you really think that games cannot teach you the same things as purely written words then perhaps you have a very limited view of what kind of games are out there.

Games convey very simplistic ideas compared to the full extent of human thought, expressed in spoken or written form. It's usually way more washed down than cinema, which is already incredibly washed down.

Not to mention the benefit of say reading about your country's history, as opposed to the history of some ficitonal world in a video game - with history books, you're learning about the things which actually happened and have had a direct, large impact on your life and the world around you.

Novels, while being ficitonal, allow you to explore inner worlds of other people and complex interactions between them (and there's nothing more complex in the universe and at the same important to us than humans and interactions between them), something that games are severely lacking (cue in people telling me about Nier Automata and one or two other story-based games which are approaching the level of a bad novel).

Most video games are spatially-oriented and are basically more sophisticated version of children playing tag, football or similar simple games focused around interactions in 3d space. And the ones that are not that, i.e. that try to be about humans and not simple spatial and temporal relationships, basically suck for the most part. It's clear that the medium is not meant for them.

The thing is, Nier Automata doesn't try to be a novel. I mean, it's not even that subtle, game all but tells you that it tries to experiment with storytelling in the medium in the first 30 minutes.

Also, you sound extremely prejudiced and close minded: > Novels, while being ficitonal, allow you to explore inner worlds of other people and complex interactions between them (and there's nothing more complex in the universe and at the same important to us than humans and interactions between them) How do you even argue with that? Can you somehow support this claim? Though from reasoning like this i can deduce that you must hate House of Leaves, and kinda understand why you dislike Nier Automata.

Nier Automata is an interesting example! It touched on a lot of interesting topics and did so in a very creative way. At the same time I also feel that the game wasn't mindful of my time at all. The stretches between the interesting story elements were frequently separated by long, often-repeating stretches of fairly simple hack'n slack gameplay. I'd hold up something like Outer Wilds or Disco Elysium though. But Disco Elysium is pretty close to an amazing book and doesn't do as creative work with the game medium as Nier does.

Imo most games are simply dopamine-sinks or reflex-based, which is fine, but you are not going to get the same brain activity as doing something which requires deep focus and that can actually be constructive. Games tend to be passive, in that once you understand how to win, you don't need to put in as much active thinking. You just need to know how to respond.

I think some of it might not be about reading activating part of my brain as much as it is about most video games and modern movies and tv shows creating some kind of dopamine feedback loop and dependence that makes other tasks less interesting and even reduces my ability to perform them as well.

> you'd better have a really good story about what you would have done instead, excluding any kind of hindsight magic.

Nah, that is not how it works. Effectively, you want people to tell you about some grand plan they would executed it, if they did not played.

The way it works when you stop gaming/reading too much facebook etc is that you start being more active in other areas. You get more fit, you suddenly read more about history without planning to, you do crafts here and there, learn to draw or play music instrument on and off. And overall you feel calmer, more creative, sleep better. And after after months/years it accumulate and you look back happy. It does not feel wasted, cause you have that picture on the wall, your dad has your the thing you created, you are really proud about that song you can play.

Because there isn't that much else to do as a teen. The opportunity cost of spending time on gaming is low. You could get a job and start saving or investing, or study harder and advance your education more quickly, but it's not the expectation that teens will do this in a significant way.

An adult who is free to do anything and chooses to spend a lot of time gaming has a higher opportunity cost and a higher likelyhood of regret later.

> You could get a job and start saving or investing, or study harder and advance your education more quickly

I see this more of a waste of teenage years time than playing videogames with friends

Learning responsibility? Learning how an organization functions? Perhaps learning a skill at the job (customer service, mental math, cooking, etc)? A waste?

> Learning responsibility? Learning how an organization functions? Perhaps learning a skill at the job (customer service, mental math, cooking, etc)? A waste?

but enough about being in an MMO guild

I see people argue for the real-world skills gaming affords— but when the biggest risk is embarrassment among people you’ll never meet, and the primary real world reward is inadvertently exercising a few organizational muscles in a vastly different context from the real world, I just don’t see it. Not saying there’s no benefit, but it’s not even in the same ballpark as actual work experience.

Not all jobs are boring. I worked as a life guard and taught swim lessons as a teen. I made great friends, we had pool parties, and I enjoyed teaching and it felt good to buy/save for things myself rather than always ask my parents for money

Working as a life guard taught you about skill building (life guards are usually well-trained / licensed) and responsibility (show up to work on-time and consistently; care for swimmers). Even if you found life guarding boring, you would still gain both of those experiences. If you stayed home and played video games instead, the result would be different. (I hesitate to use the term "less" here... else I would get a HN pile-on!)

What about people who read a lot in their childhood / teen years. Their minds seem to be wired differently than those who play video games. (Probably mistaken cause and effect on my part...)

> we had pool parties

if that's what you like, yeah. I prefer to have sat with my friends playing bomberman or fighting games, laughing at each other when they died, eating popcorn and chilling.

I did a lot of that type of thing too!

There is a ton of stuff to do as a teen. I spent a lot of my time getting into graphics. Other things to do could be sports of various kinds, music, making stuff, etc.

I look back on that stuff fondly, and I feel like doing that stuff helped me a ton today.

> Because there isn't that much else to do as a teen.

Whoa, that's a bold statement!

I think the key here is the regret. Is playing games alone, or with friends really that much different from some other activity, such as traveling, alone, or with friends? Sure you learn while traveling, but also get good at gaming the more you do it. You can even substitute traveling with some other hobby (playing the guitar, building legos, etc). Some may argue that the guitar is a "useful" skill but I'd argue that gaming can be a useful skill in the same sense.

Same. If anything, my teen gaming years may have helped get me through school.

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