The “just worrying” labelling technique [pdf] | Hacker News Reader

The “just worrying” labelling technique [pdf]

mindmate.org.uk

151 pointsjossclimb46 comments

This reminds me of a CBT technique known "Rumination Cues Action". It was quite useful in my case.

The goal of the technique is to tackle the issue behaviourally, spot the rumination trigger and do something else so you can anchor yourself to back to reality. This should help you develop a habit of stopping worrying _before_ it escalates into rumination.

This is roughly how it works:

1. Notice when you're ruminating (i.e. what are the triggers? e.g. "leaving the bed", "taking a shower"). Ideally, write them down somewhere. I’d use the Notes app on my phone for that.

2. Once you notice the trigger happening again, _do something else_!

Example: if I noticed that I was worrying about _<generic, impossible to solve problem [1]>_, I'd leave my computer and grab a glass of water, stretch, text someone. Initially, I had to do this almost all the time, which felt a bit silly but after a few days I had less and less to put in my Notes app and felt generally more in control.

None of this is a replacement for therapy, of course, but it's one of the CBT tools I've personally found helpful. Stretching 15m per weeks is not as good as visiting the gym, but it's still better than doing nothing. And this is low-hanging fruit.

[1] pick your poison, in my case this could've been anything ranging from impostor syndrome to homelessness to cancer to war.

Much of this seems familiar from mindfulness and CBT style approaches to rumination and catastrophising.

However, I do have a problem with the word "just" and its possibly dangerous consequences. The opposite tendency is minimisation.

You properly identify "impossible to solve problem" as a target, but without some care the label "just" might get attached to: Just a final exam. Just one burger. Just a little unexplained blood.

I was expecting a second page to the PDF dealing with how to mentally process these labels and sort them into actionable and inactionable.

Worry can be anything from a pointless, corrosive rumination to a very important instinct that your subconscious or body is telling you to do something about. Linking the feeling to a phenomenon and possible action requires attention which cannot be pushed down indefinitely.

I see your point, but I think this leaflet is aimed at the people who have a tendency to overthink and ruminate as opposed of ignoring issues, hence the approach.

You'll be rarely ruminating about something that is a real, actionable problem. Instead, you're more likely to be ruminating about something, anything that isn't the actual problem at hand. So, in a sense, ruminating can be a form of escapism.

That's why I don't worry too much about the use of "just" here. At least personally, I don't think it's likely that I'd follow this approach and end up _avoiding_ problems.

Reason: it's easier to spot either extreme when you step out of your head even for a moment.

PS. When I worry too much about something I can't control (e.g. silly office politics) I try to figure out what is the thing I'm _not_ thinking about (getting the release done, having a difficult workshop to run).

PPS. I'm not a psychologist, but I read some interesting perspectives on the problem of avoidance when researching Schema Therapy. Surely, there are better materials than that, but I found it personally interesting and you might too.

> the thing I'm _not_ thinking about

Yes, interesting point. I think that's a good thing to investigate. Thanks for the thoughts,

This isn't about labeling the target. It's about labeling the entirely unhelpful "just worrying", which they identify in the very first bubble. "Just worrying" about a final exam is an entirely accurate and useful label. "Just worrying" about it will not accomplish anything useful or helpful.

Labeling it as "just an exam" may or may not be useful/helpful in some circumstances, but those aren't the subject of the PDF.

This only works to a point, especially if the excessive worry is the result of past trauma.

> Or saying hello to the worry but don't stop to chat

Alternative approach: get to know the part of your brain that's worried. What underlies that worry? What is that part of your brain afraid will happen if it didn't bring up this anxiety? It's trying to protect you from some sort of pain, even if this behavior of excessive worry has now become maladaptive.

That's sort of the basis of Internal Family Systems therapy. The idea that our brain has discrete parts (different neural nets probably), and that they're all trying to protect us. Getting to know these parts can let us understand why they do what they do, which can give us the tools to heal them, and allow them to take on new roles.

Sometimes this "labeling" technique can lead to negative blowback if parts of your brain feel that you're now in danger because you're ignoring their warning signals. The same problem happens with meditation too, which is why you hear lots of stories of people being destabilized at meditation retreats. I think this risk is higher for people with trauma in their history.

I never thought I had trauma, but this has been my exact experience with labeling, and I’ve recently begun working with an IFS therapist as well.

Yeah, it's also possible that it's not the best approach even for people without acute trauma. Trauma can also be complex and cumulative, like with CPTSD.

I think it can work in the short term, but it ignores the longer term fact that these anxieties are coming from somewhere in our brains that can't always be reprogrammed with a simple labeling technique.

This is all thinking in hindsight, so maybe it's backwards rationalisation, but when I started meditating it felt like it helped me improve my focus at work, but around the same time I've become more emotionally disregulated. So, maybe there is something to what you're saying.

This is very anecdotal though (and I've definitely had an abusive mother)

I've read a lot of anecdotal reports just like yours. I think it's way more common than people think when they get into meditation. Especially for people who had any trauma growing up.

I think the IFS model offers an interesting hypothesis for why this happens. According to IFS, we have parts that experienced extreme pain in childhood that hold onto that pain and become "exiles". Other parts are put in front of them as "protectors". Meditation seems to quiet the protectors, which can unleash the pain of the exiles unexpectedly, leaving us without the ability to deal with it.

IFS takes a different approach by working with the protectors, not against them. You only go to the exiles (the deep pain underneath) with the permission of the protectors.

I started making a checklist of things that worried me so I can offload end feeling of forgetting to do something critical and no longer have these worrisome thoughts cause I can simply tell myself, stick to the checklist it’s all accounted for. Try it out!

I'm going to try it but I can't imagine why it would work.

After an accident two years ago I developed some tics and abnormal compulsive behaviour that make me feel like a real nutcase but none of the tricks I find online have done anything to help.

I've tried inflicting light pain to myself when it happens as a sort of reverse Pavlov bell, I've tried deep rationalization: analyzing the feelings to their root as a way to take away the associated emotions, and lately I've been trying repeating the opposite of the way I feel as a way to try and cancel the thoughts. It is really hard retraining the brain it seems.

It's given me some really interesting insights on trauma, though. It's hard to empathize with things you haven't experienced, I used to feel people were weak who were traumatized by life experiences that I felt were not all that bad compared to some of the things I and other people I know have been through. But it turns out it's not about the magnitude of the harm, it's more about the way your brain interprets it and the false causal patterns it forms from your experience.

> It is really hard retraining the brain it seems.

Have you tried seeing a therapist? A good therapist works a bit like a coach (think: "sports coach", not "live coach" whatever the fuck that means). We're notoriously bad at spotting unproductive thought patterns, and having someone with an unbiased perspective and the right expertise really helps. It takes years, but so far it has been the most effective way of doing so, for me.

Also, you can keep rationalising as much as you want, but your meat sponge is not a rational, logical machine. The average HN reader might make the mistake of believing otherwise (include me on this list). Your amygdala doesn't give a shit, however.

Speaking from personal experience here, hope it didn't come across as patronising. I just noticed that many of the things you've said sound familiar.

It'd probably be the healthy thing to do but I don't have the money, the time or the ability since my physical health hasn't recovered yet. Also I find the idea of talking about my feelings to a complete stranger unappealing. But anyway I'm not complaining, it's not too bad, I've solved the more debilitating aspects through personal work and the rest I can live with until I figure out a way to get rid of it.

I didn't take it to be patronizing, I appreciate the advice.

I think techniques based on observation and acceptance might have a better chance of working than trying to forcefully extinguish or fight it.

Bruteforce has worked for me in the past. But maybe you're right, I'm going to try this one and see how it goes.

PTSD? Have you considered MDMA, ketamine or Ayahuasca? Nitrous Oxide is also said to work on the same “glutamate pathway” and may also have some therapeutic effect. You’d need food safe stuff though like you find in whipped cream, not from a car’s nitrous bottle.

No idea what it is, I never went to a mental health professional. I got Ketamine before being loaded into the ambulance and I felt pretty great for about 4 to 6 months after. But it's not easily available in my country outside of emergency situations.

Hadn't heard of some of those other ones, maybe I'll them a try, cheers.

If you're not aware, ketamine clinics are now trending in the US. The effects do seem to last about 4-6 months from what I've heard.

Just a disclaimer to consult your doctor about this stuff, or take a lot of precautions. This stuff can go really -really- bad.

From reading this and similar articles to this, I think it's a psychological 'trick' to basically convince your brain that "this is being dealt with".

It's basically very similar to mindfulness, but this is giving a specific structure of telling you to note your emotions with "just...".

For anyone wondering, this actually works, it can literally change your life, and is as simple as it sounds.

But if this is true, why wouldn’t it be some huge thing you hear about everywhere?

And it is, as the essence of mindfulness meditation.

> why wouldn’t it be some huge thing you hear about everywhere?

I feel like you hear about this all the time though. Both in the context of mindfulness, and in the context of cognitive behavioral therapy.

Also, as far as I know the actual effectiveness of CBT and mindfulness is still up for debate? It certainly works very well for some people, but "this actually works" might be a bit much?

I tend to think of the workings of the mind like those of the body.

Some people have minds that lack even basic personal hygiene. Others have minds that could run a marathon every week for a year. Most people are somewhere in-between.

This is partly nature, partly nurture. But just as 'do squats' is good advice for someone looking to improve their general health, this labelling technique is good advice for someone who wants to worry less often.

I'm not a doctor or physio, but I'd imagine that if you have heart problems you'd want to get those sorted before doing squats. Likewise, if you have suicidal thoughts it would be best to address those before anything else, for example.

So yes, I believe 'this actually works'. But depending on your current level of mental fitness YMMV.

They’re both actively researched but also both have a body of evidence supporting their effectiveness.

If your only caveat is does not work for 100% of people, I think you’d have to exclude almost all therapies, drugs, techniques, etc.

And, it’s free. To learn many great books are available for free.

Or go on a retreat to practice under an instructor. If you can’t afford the retreat fee, it can likely be reduced or free. You will marvel at walking away at the end feeling no pressure to buy or do anything.

I keep telling myself: "He who worries, suffers twice". I can't remember who the quote is attributed to, but it's a helpful little phrase that reminds me that it's better to just suffer once and be done, or sometimes, not suffer at all.

The story of the Buddha ’inviting Mara to tea’ stuck with me. It involves more embracing of fears than “just worry”, but probably does take more emotional investment. https://www.tarabrach.com/inviting-mara-to-tea/

Just this morning I listened to a radiolab podcast: "the wordless place", which talks about how a word puts something in a category, and that doing this can take living concepts and turn them dead, like putting a firefly in a jar without air. It makes reference to something named the Zeigarnik effect - for remembering unfinished or interrupted tasks better than completed tasks, and it analogizes this to the ability to better remember a phenomenon in its detail and nuance and contextual connection better when you don't have a word for it.

In this case, putting a word to worry is used as a good and effective way to stop worry, which is an angle that had not occurred to me.

This is one of the 6 key processes in ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy), which is based on RFT (Relational Frame Theory).

Defusion involves the creation of nonliteral, nonevaluative contexts that diminish the unnecessary regulatory functions of cognitive events, and increase contact with the ongoing process of relating as opposed merely to its products. Said in another way, the focus is on mindfully noticing thinking as it occurs. Some examples of defusion techniques include thanking one’s mind for a thought, watching thoughts go by as if they were written on leaves floating down a stream, repeating words out loud until only the sound remains, or giving thoughts a shape, size, and texture. Clients can practice labeling the process of thinking (e.g., “I am having the thought that I will never be successful”), and practice behaving in ways that directly contradict a thought (e.g., saying “I cannot walk” as one walks across the room). The goal is greater behavioral flexibility, not an immediate change in their frequency or form.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635495/

Is there a good book on CBT? I've looked into Burn's collection and others, but they have so much filler and anecdotes about this one time they had a patient that thought they were ugly but was actually stunningly beautiful, then the simple steps they followed cured them etc.

Looking for something more practical on how to implement the techniques, not something trying to sell me that it works.

His “Feeling Good Handbook” is actually a good course if you treat it like a particularly slow textbook aimed at new students.

Skim the exercises and anecdotes. You can stop reading after chapter 6. It’s just variations on the same theme from there.

I also have a two page “crash course” I derived from it. It’s a worksheet and how to use it. It assumes you have some level of self-awareness and already understand the dangers of using CBT improperly.

Word: https://kayode.co/therapy-worksheet.docx

PDF: https://kayode.co/therapy-worksheet.pdf

At some point, I need to write an article on my blog that covers how to use it properly. Until then, I’m using unlisted links.

I got chronically stuck in my meditation regiment when I got to the point where I was supposed to briefly acknowledge distractions. It turned into too much of a thing. Too much thinking about thinking.

The best headspace for me is when I can stop identifying with my thoughts. That’s the best thing that I’ve learned from meditation yet, and I would have never gotten to that place/space organically by myself.

> This technique involves no criticism or anger at yourself,

Easier said than done. I blamed myself for getting distracted. And then I blamed myself for blaming myself. I wasn’t mindful enough to get out of that cycle.

I struggle a bit with anxiety, and started doing some similar form of labeling a few months back.

Whenever I notice my thoughts spiraling I just notice it ("I am starting to be anxious") and take a few deep breath to put a break on the automatic reflex loop.

I can't say it solves all problems, but it seems to be at least somewhat helpful, and as the PDF says, it's really, really easy.

Similar, and I add a note about the thing into a little notebook to review later.

I’ve been doing this for months.

Sometimes it’s helpful, but it seems more and more like I’m using it as a tool to suppress my worries and control my thoughts, which feels bad and leads to a lot of internal conflict.

I can’t understand what people mean with “let your thoughts float by”. For me, noticing them is synonymous with interrupting them, and it feels like I’m suppressing them most of the time.

I can understand that. I have to follow through with logic for why the worry won’t help.

“What is the upside for me if I continue to worry?”

> I can’t understand what people mean with “let your thoughts float by”. For me, noticing them is synonymous with interrupting them, and it feels like I’m suppressing them most of the time.

The way this works for me, say, when I meditate, is to acknowledge a thought and put it in a box labelled "for later".

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just dealing with it when I _want to_, not when my anxiety kicks in or when my brain tries to fill the silence in my head. If it's important, I'll remember it.

I still suck at this, but I'm somewhat better than I used to be. So, it's a bit like exercise, and one can get better with time. It's also very personal (ymmv). Again, this way of looking at it worked for _me_.

It’s common to get hung up on a point like that. I think the best way to get past it is have someone explain the same thing in a different way that might click easier.

What’s described here is basically mindfulness meditation. I an not the mystical type at all and this was a great entry point for me:

http://ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Mindfulness%20in%20Pla...

> Worrying involves repetitive thinking … without coming up with any solutions

The problem here is not the worrying, it’s the lack of solution.

> The ‘Just Worrying’ Labelling Technique

This is not really a technique, it’s just a thought terminating cliche. There are many possible thought terminating cliches.

In my experience, rational techniques are far superior to thought terminating cliches.

I think it's okay to use thought-terminating cliches on yourself if you understand what you are telling your subconscious and why.

E.g. politics isn't going my way this year? What can I do? Vote? Protest? Strike? Donate? I will certainly vote. I don't feel like doing anything else. Everything else has to fall under "I'm doing what I can for now." or "Yeah life just sucks huh" or something.

Then I'm free to put that thought back down for a while.

I think the linked poster is talking about irrational stressors, not ones you can talk yourself out of.

Worries that stem from irrational sources sometimes can't be quelled with rational thought processes. We're more beholden to primordial stress responses than we'd like to admit, triggered by things which make no sense on paper. Social anxiety is a good example. Worrying about deadlines you know you're on track for. Etc.

It makes sense that (some) irrational stresses can be quelled by sheer force of will. We have some conscious control over our stress responses, or at least can retrain the way our brains follow up to that stress response. It doesn't work for everything, but it's a good tool to have in one's mental wellbeing toolbox.

> We're more beholden to primordial stress responses than we'd like to admit

I completely agree. This is why I don’t think thought terminating cliches are a solution. Our stress response is a policy trained over eons of evolution. We should honor it with real thought and real action.

Incredible, thanks for sharing. Seems like this whole website is packed with similar good explained help around mental health: https://www.mindmate.org.uk/

This sort of thing always reminds me of the potato sacks the Silastic Armourfiends of Striterax had to punch each morning to get rid of their surplus aggression.

I use this on deja vu so I don’t have to spend a while trying to figure out if/when I saw something before.

The word "helpful" is doing a lot of work in that phrase "helpful problem solving."

For starters: which phone is the most secure option for HN to make a call to a therapist-- an Iphone SE or a Pixel 6 Pro running Graphene OS?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com