Ask HN: Europe to East Coast, does it make sense to move at 50? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Europe to East Coast, does it make sense to move at 50?

76 pointskoevet262 comments

Dear HN,

I have the opportunity to move from Berlin to Princeton, NJ, in relation to my wife's job. I wonder if it makes sense financially and I thought to ask the community.

A bit of context: I turned 50 this year, I have 25+ years of coding/system design/tech lead experience. I have mostly worked as a freelance "on-site", sometimes for short periods of time, some other times I stayed with the same client for years.

These days I work on a lot of cloud migration projects, with a strong focus on AWS.

So, coming to my question, I have no frame of reference regarding salaries on the East Coast, especially for freelance jobs.

I did some research and the salaries for permanent positions in the area are significantly lower than my current income in Europe. I assume that I could potentially earn more by engaging clients on the west coast, but my US network is non existent.

Is the free-lancing that I'm used to do in Europe even a thing in the US? (Working for a client for months - at least 6 - on a daily rate which is higher than a normal salary because I can be released at any time plus I bear all the cost of employment including health). Also, can my age represent a problem for employers?

Sorry for the fuzziness of the question, I hope it does make some sense.

EDIT: my wife's company will provide a work permit for me, but at this stage I don't know which type.

View on HN

Hello there, I live in Berlin now and used to live in the United States. My family is there, and I go back to the east coast of the US often. The degenerating and dystopian quality of the United States is difficult to overstate, but almost impossible to capture verbally.

Whatever one cause attributes to the systematic breakdown of the US, it is difficult to deny the realities of the decline -- massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues, increase polarization of politics, censoriousness on all sides of the discussion, narrowness, a shortening of attention, a loss of standards. I could go on, but it's too depressing.

I came to Berlin first in 2006. Yes, it was very cheap then, but also very monocultural: now there are many more forms of life here, and they benefit from their coexistence. Stay here, make this moderately good place even better.

This is not exactly a financial response, and that was the context of your question, so forgive the somewhat off-topic aspect of the remark -- yet, the negative aspects of life in the US have both real actual costs and possible future risks. All the talk about civil war might be bluff, but it is still alarming.

no worries, it definitively helps to put things in perspective. We have not made our mind up yet, so these "angles" are super helpful too.

How is that's even slightly related to OPs question?

> Stay here, make this moderately good place even better

I think you missed the part about his wife's job in the US which is the reason for the move in the first place.

That's not a problem if you have money.

If you don't want kids.

If you do, it's always a factor. Do you want your kids to grow up in a stable culture, or in a declining one? Surrounded by polarization, extremes of all kinds, instability? I consider moving to the US for a couple of years for the money, but the second that kids are on the horizon, I would book a plane ticket to Europe.

I get that you may want to move here if you want to have kids, but isn't Europe declining at least as fast as the US?

European fertility levels are lower than the US, so they are declining faster.

Fertility rates are not the only factor in a declining society.

For that purpose 'having money' is not the kind of money that a typical immigrant from Europe will bring with them, especially not if they still have to work for a living.

Depends what you mean by "have money". Plenty of small business owners with a few million dollars in savings and assets have had to liquidate them to pay for healthcare for themselves or their family members. It can cost over $1 million to survive a heart attack in the US, and the disability of oneself or family members can easily cost millions of dollars in healthcare expenses over a lifetime.

Not to mention abysmal health and social services.

I’ve been to the US a couple times for work (all over), always travelled around a bit. I found the people to very, very warm and kind everywhere. Racial segregation is sometimes too real in some places but the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude, it’s easy and rewarding to just be the change you want to see in that respect.

The only reservation I’d have is about the healthcare system especially as you grow older. Maybe get well informed about good insurance.

Federal government literally spends over $1T on healthcare for the elderly.

The healthcare issues in the country have never been about the old.

Oh that’s good to hear, I got the impression it was only good as a veteran.

What are you talking about, health care for the elderly is terrible! I guess you've never had to take care of an old person in the US? And never been exposed to northern European healthcare?

You bring up a good point, even though the US spends the most per capita on health care we actually have the worst outcomes

https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0252_health_outcomes_spen...

Every time this stat is brought up I always think it doesn't convey the full context. Even though its in terms of per capita, it's still an absolute amount, I think a better data point to illustrate if the US was overspending compared to outcomes would be what % of disposable income is spent on healthcare vs outcomes.

For example, let's say the US spent 2x on healthcare as some country, but had 4x the disposable income, would this still be overspending or would it be more efficient given the amount relative to income? The closest I can find is health spending as % of GDP but that doesn't capture what a person's income, since it includes government spending too, so it obfuscates whether or not the inefficiency (if any) lies in private or public healthcare in the US.

Why would that even matter?

Things cost more in some places so you need to account for that variation. A million could pay for 3 / 4 doctors in the US or 30 / 40 in Africa.

You say this like the profit seeking in the US is some sort of natural phenomenon that we can't avoid. We can adjust costs based in cost of living and local currency, profiteering is what sucks resources out of the system

Physicians in the US are protected, there's only a limited number of slots every year in med schools. This is fake scarcity

Let's say the US spent 2x on healthcare as some country, but had 4x the disposable income, would this still be overspending or would it be more efficient given the amount relative to income?

Healthcare spending in $ per capita doesn't capture how much people earn in that country or how much of a burden it is relative to their income so its kinda meaningless without more context. It's like saying the US economy is better than 85% of the OECD because its in the top 5 gdp per capita.

"Disposable income" is undefined, its super vague and we can't determine anything with that phrase

Most people in the US don't have "disposable income" from my perspective

There's a very consistent definition for what that means with plenty of papers and institutions that use use roughly the same definition. Here's one phrasing of it by the OECD[1]. Basically it's just income minus taxes, what part of that is remotely vague?

Discretionary income might be an even better measure but that has more wiggle room on defining what is a necessity and not.

https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1]

I still don't see how that's a good metric, in any way, for judging health care costs. "Disposable income" takes nothing else into account such as other costs or predatory behaviors in the healthcare system

Its literally just money after taxes, and most people are living paycheck to paycheck

You can't judge how much of a burden healthcare costs are unless you account for how much of a person's income or some proxy of it healthcare is. Just saying that the US spends more per capita than other OECD countries doesn't say anything without more context. IF you want to show that the healthcare spending isn't efficient in the US you have to at least show that it's not just because everything costs more there or that everyone earns more in the US (gdp/capita is higher than ~85% of OECD in US).

It spends more per capita with worse outcomes

That's the point, where is that extra spending going? What good is it doing? Why is any other question the topic of discussion?

You haven't shown its extra spending with just that one stat. Does $50 USD buy you the same things in the US as $50 USD in Venezuela?

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it doesn't. Why not?

Does Venezuela have a bunch of leeching middlemen at every possible point in their systems due to the massive push for privatization?

I bet sugar has a lot to do with it

I think the issue isn’t the wilingness to spend. It’s the lack of willingness to make it effective.

The reason its not effective is because most of the money doesn't actually do anything, that's literally what profit is

Profiteering leeches resources from a system to benefit a small number of people at the expense of the rest of the healthcare system

In my opinion, please excuse my language, but it's fucking insane

Unfortunately it's starting to happen here too. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to make these arguments at the rate we're privatizing and contracting out things... Might end up just as bad here in the long term.

It's the whole reason for the UK tube strikes right now too, and the media is trying to paint the union guy as some Marxist villain when they just want decent wages

The whole thing is totally absurd and short sighted, it's damaging to society. This is why there's more stability in some EU countries. We shouldn't be sacrificing stability for profits, that's a terrible idea. We need a stable populace to make stable progress and have a robust system that lasts for generations

In my experience, it’s often even worse - there often isn’t even any significant profit, at least not in any coherent, centralized way. There are a lot of individual players who can be pointed out, but none of them individually is ‘the problem’.

Absolutely massive amounts of value is destroyed (and patients harmed) just doing super inefficient shitty processes because no one has the ability or incentive to do any better at a systemic level.

Everyone in the system who has a degree of control gets paid very well keeping the wheels turning and consuming cash.

You're 100% on the nose. A big part of it is unnecessary middleman companies leeching at every point in the process.

That's why the profit is so minimal, because there are just so many people providing little to no benefit all taking their piece and spreading it over a bunch of salaries while people get denied treatment

Medicare still has costs to the policyholder and it also requires supplemental insurance for coverage of things like eyes, teeth, hearing aids, long term care, etc.

They will just send you home to die when you become a burden to them. Happens all the time, old folks just get told to pound sand and die and no one does shit about it.

> the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude

Where were you? I live and grew up in the south east, and have always chatted with my black neighbors / clerks / coworkers / etc when out and about. It’s so normal that I can’t imagine a response of surprise.

I'm here in the south too, and the way my friends up north and out west talk, they seem almost more segregated than the south.

Private schools--or neighborhoods with a good school system--are basically about segregation. Every single black child I've ever seen--with one notable exception--had a super arrogant streak, in one case it was a one-time thing, in every other case like holy shit (though another one I sometimes had good conversations with, it just varied). Like out of nowhere, spitting in my path in US--that's racial bullying on their part, they're trying to impress white boys--literal white boys, white males under the age of 18--that they can even intimidate white men. So then what? What's the endgame of those underage black boys? What are they trying to accomplish? Whom else are they trying to impress?

And so then you just want to avoid them, because nobody can punish them without undergoing that which Americans and especially Californians are most afraid of--being accused of racism.

California is built with this form of segregation in mind--highways, no sidewalks, no public bathrooms, extortionate rent (huge percentage of income, 40% is common) with the homelessness that is its direct consequence, crazy zoning (you could economically build 60-story skyscrapers anywhere in Palo Alto), concrete everywhere with many places inaccessible except by car, hospitals out to fuck you, firmatage, terrible public transport--all out of fear of harm from minorities which can believe it or not be out to get whites--have that specific intent of harming whites, and they get convicted for hate crimes but those crimes never make the news--which they never punish, only prevent.

I am European, I have stayed in the US many times and I think some parts of Europe have more racial problems than the US. For example, I have some Asian friends who used to work with me in Scandinavia and moved to the East Coast as they felt like second class citizens.

Another big problem in Europe is the way talent is valued. It is much more important to have good connections and to belong to the upper class. Simply compare the salaries between engineers here and there. Only management gets a good compensation. This explains why innovation is somewhat stifled.

Things are changing and there are some exceptions. For example, Switzerland shares many of the desirable traits of EU and US, but few of their issues. Stockholm and Berlin have nice startup scenes, and so on. However, the rate of change has slowed down dramatically due to COVID, the housing bubble and inflation rates.

> the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude

In ~1999 I was in New York, walking around with a sizeable backpack and asked around in Harlem where to find the Sugar Hill hostel. I'd asked two men about where to find it when I was approached by two young women who advised me not to ask these questions here as that would not be safe. I was rather surprised by this since I thought that time was past. Maybe it was the location, maybe it was the backpack but it was not what I'd expected. I found the hostel by myself and came to no harm in any way or shape.

I'm "white" (more of a shade of tan, really), everyone else in this narrative is "black" (more of a shade of brown, really).

I wouldn't try the same thing today.

Odd comment given how that area of Harlem is much much safer today than it was in the 90s

Funny, I (as white as it gets, melanin deficit disorder) stayed at the Sugar Hill Hostel for a couple of days (around labour day -- found it difficult then to leave the city on bus or train) in '98. An African American man walked me to the hostel in an apparent effort to ensure my safety. He pointed out that there are different shades of black skin, which I found a bit sad (the pointing out part). The area seemed actually fairly safe, but the fellow was nice enough to chat with.

The Hostel itself was not all that remarkable (other than the lack of air conditioning at that time of the year), but the crowd there was interesting, quite an experience. Thanks for jogging my memories ;-)

After my stay in the hostel I went for a long hike in the Catskills - where a porcupine ate my candles during a night in a lean-to - after which I returned there to pick up a friend from JFK with whom I proceeded to hike around and over Mt. Washington - where a squirrel found the bag of food which I hung in a tree to keep it from the bears, it ripped my sleeping bag stuffing bag to shreds - to return to NYC. From the long night conversations with an 19yo Israeli girl who I managed to talk out of hitch-hiking solo through the US through staying in a rather rickety apartment in the Bronx (large cockroaches in the sink in the morning, etc) with a Brazilian, an Irishman, an American woman and (another) Dutchman, it was an interesting trip. I've staid there on other trips as well, it being (at least back then) an affordable and relatively central location. Never missed the AC, maybe 'cause I'm not used to it being present?

We have really good insurance and now that my partner needs treatment for a chronic illness, they are denying the treatment. It’s lowering her quality of life, may lead to her death, and it’s absolutely standard operating procedure for insurance companies. It’s a delaying tactic.

Healthcare is hard here.

The only reason insurance would (legally) be able to deny treatment is if there is no good efficacy data.

If your doctors say there is supporting data for the treatment they are recommending, then filing and appeal is an option.

https://www.healthcare.gov/appeal-insurance-company-decision...

I believe it works similarly in countries with taxpayer funded healthcare. Some group of people at some point in the process decide what is eligible to be paid for by the government.

Is it really that bad in the US? Makes me wonder if I should continue to invest in the US stock market...

The success of the US stock market and the US as a society are not exactly related, and may in fact have an adversarial relationship, so continued investment in the US could be wise.

Oh, the US _economy_ is incredibly strong, opportunity abounds, and looking at the headwinds other economies around the world will face in decades to come I would guess it will only get better in comparison to the rest of the world...it just kind of sucks to live here in most places, and the ones that don't are crazy expensive. Think of the US as a farm for humans.

More folks than usual are hating everyone after years of lockdown and burnout from an overheating economy + Covid due to a decade and a half of fed pumps, but it’s still a small portion of the population.

The ‘everything in the US is global news’, and the end stage ‘ramp up the blood and panic’ from the media companies trying to get more revenue before they go bankrupt doesn’t help.

No. It's hyper localized. So someone in SF may think the US is turning to crap because they see an increase in homeless, drug use, etc.

In all the areas I've lived here, which are not big cities, you see none of that.

The US is vast, things are great where I’m at.

No. The US is more stable than Europe will ever be. However, the US makes lots of drama (both TV series and politics-wise, heck even in its industries). The average US-person can't shut up. Also the OP seems to be a white guy, which is cool for Europe as it's a place with unrecognized racism and discrimination.

The US on the other hand is very welcoming to foreigners (socially). Your neighbor, the barman and people on the street will talk to you. I think it's part of the reason why the US managed the integration of new people easily. It's easier to leave your way of doing things back when you are welcomed. Foreign societies in European are segregated (culturally) even though they live door to door with other Europeans.

Yes, because there are no alcohol or drug issues in Berlin!

What an over the top comment. The US regardless of these issues is an enormously successful country, with some of the friendlist people when you visit (I'm from the UK originally but travel a lot).

There's a lot of alcohol and drug use in Berlin, but there are not vast open air drug markets like Kensington in Philadelphia or Skid Row in San Francisco.

The issue is, indeed, "over the top."

Check Moritzplatz and Schonleinstrasse and come back here..

We could quibble about "vast", but the difference between Berlin's drug markets and the US's isn't really the intensity, but safety. (Don't totally misunderstand - they're still some of the least safe places in Berlin, but nothing like Kensington - which in turn also not as bad as pearl-clutchers would have you believe.)

Thats not even close.

> Skid Row in San Francisco.

Literal Skid Row is in Los Angeles[1], the figurative skid row in SF is called the Tenderloin [2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_Row,_Los_Angeles

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_row#San_Francisco

Is this the same Berlin I've been to? Many of the parks are literally open air drug markets?!

This is hilariously inaccurate and essentially a stereotype perceived from the Reddit front page. Europe is experiencing legions of issues including runaway inflation, a government and social safety net that is rapidly becoming unaffordable, a migrant crisis that is causing their own racial issues that they pretend don’t exist but are causing huge polarization and the rise of right-wing parties, a business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decades, and on and on.

> including runaway inflation

The same as everywhere... due to a war and pandemic.

> a government and social safety net that is rapidly becoming unaffordable

Completely false. Do you even read our budgets? Your debt-to-GDB was literally 3x ours last year. European countries aren't even allowed to deficit spend more than a few percent (which is what got Greece in trouble, for example.)

> they pretend don’t exist

I'm guessing you don't speak any European languages or you'd know this isn't true.

> business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decades, and on and on.

Ummm, right... like ARM, Skype, Spotify, Klarna, all the telecom suppliers, not to mention some of the biggest multinationals on the planet (whom you probably think are American)

I find lectures about American society from Europeans, as the parent comment did, exceedingly ironic and misinformed considering the same issues plague both sides. Even more so as American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.

The grass is always greener but I prefer it here.

I lived in both, each for the same amount of time, and the US is a wasteland compared to this in many ways. Both sides are effected by the global economy and geopolitics, but things are handled much better here.

> Even more so as American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.

This is delusional. All you've ever done is make the world more insecure for your own gain[1]. You invade and overthrow everyone who ever disagreed with you and scream "freedom" at everyone.

> The grass is always greener but I prefer it here.

You've never lived here, that's why.

1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md

My grandfather did stand not far away from moscow with his platoon... give germany a few years without you yankees and i am pretty sure we would do better this time ;-)

> Even more so as American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.

That's one of the stupidest misconceptions Americans have about "Europe" (the EU).

The EU has a mutual defence elements to it. The EU has a nuclear power, France. The EU doesn't need the US, your "tax dollars and (horrifically broken) political system", and should stop relying on it ASAP. Trump showed you can be an incredibly unreliable partner, why risk it?

It’s just so strange that the USA has to provide all the weapons, negotiations, saber shaking, etc. to protect Ukraine when Germany and France are so capable!

You're confounding capabilities with interests. Defending Ukraine (or rather bogging down Russia) has a lot more value to the US than it does European countries who hesitated as long as possible due to their intertwinement with Russia. The world is not as black and white as the propaganda leads you to believe.

Why do you think that all is coming from the US?

https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine...

25% comes from the US, but if you order by GDP(second graph), US is fourth. So overall a very big contribution, but far from "all". And about "negotiations" specifically, you're simply wrong - the ones keeping an open line with Putin (for zero gain so far) are Macron and Scholz (both say it's with Zelensky's approval, and he hasn't disproven them so they're probably not lying).

I would fully support withdrawing 100% of our aid and support and letting the EU defend itself. Very tired of giving my taxes to you guys.

Aren’t we mostly giving that money to US defense contractors?

Raytheon Technologies, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing are getting the bulk of that $40 billion.

Nothing like giving away the ‘about to expire’ food (I mean missles) to refresh the pantry - and all for a good cause of causing grief to historic opponents who are acting somewhat comic book evil at the moment.

We don’t talk about Iraq of course.

Are you under the impression that Ukraine is a part of the EU or that helping Ukraine defends itself means anything for the defence of the EU? Both of those are untrue.

We are all helping Ukraine because it's the right thing to do (being invaded by a genocidal regime is not a nice thing to happen to anyone).

The parent comment, me, was an American. Yes, the US state offers "protection" to Europeans, gangsters do that too.

Yes - and as an American I support withdrawing all aid so the Europeans can defend themselves and pay for all of its costs.

That's a pretty coarse-grained granularity.

How about: "As a Californian, I support withdrawing all aid, so the east coast can defend itself."

The USA is a country of states. Europe is a continent of sort-of linked countries. I don’t want to pay for them anymore given how much they pretend armed defense is unnecessary. Good luck to them but I don’t think we should be paying for their defense.

> American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.

While this sounds like something Otto said in A Fish Called Wanda, I can assure Europeans that many Americans actually believe what he is saying.

Of course we can look at the history of the US in Europe. Operation Gladio ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio ) was established to start a guerrilla war in Italy or France if the parties elected were not aligned with the rulers of the US (the US barely tolerated De Gaulle). The US intervention in Italian politics in 1948 exceeded Russian meddling in Czechoslovakia that year. The CIA spied on and stole Airbus plans for US business and does this regularly for other industries. And not to forget spying on Merkel's phone calls and all of this...as the US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland famously said in 2014 "fuck the EU".

Also, someone would have to be naive to think the US is acting in the current situation out of enormous benevolence to the Ukraine. It is, among other things, working on accomplishing what it wants to achieve for its own benefit in western Europe.

> Even more so as American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.

It's a lot more complex than that and a lot less cartoonish. The US armed forces protect the way the world is structured, which is obviously dominated by the US. This state of affairs has been erected over the second half of the 20th century primarily to further US interests. It's relatively unique in that it has come about with incredibly little bloodshed, though there are some precedents (not at this scale, obviously). This state of affairs has worked really well for the US as a nation state and economy, and it has had a ton of positive collateral effects for many others as well, but of course nothing at this level is ever motivated by goodwill. Protecting the current world order is done out of self-interest.

The European powers have arranged themselves with and taken advantage of this reality pretty well. Yet no one (that matters) is under the delusion that any support or protection on the part of the US happens for any other reason than to further US interests and wouldn't happen if those interests weren't aligned that way. The US are a "force for good" if and only if your interests are aligned closely with theirs; find yourself in the way of US influence or economic interests, and things can get very evil. There are numerous examples for this in relatively recent history (the most recent one is probably the Julian Assange extradition ruling).

If you look closely, you'll also notice precisely how the big EU players accomodate for that reality. Obviously the US wouldn't tolerate a European rival and it's certainly much safer to keep those interests aligned, given the scale of US dominance. It would also be a lot harder, geographically, to build a powerhouse like the US on European soil, and an impossibility from a political point of view. So there's no upside to aim for overwhelming force projection capabilities on a global scale; just huge risks and downsides and crippling cost.

Yet France and the UK have nuclear arms and fairly effective militaries that are way, way smaller that the US one, hence not a true rival even on European soil, but cover the important strategic bases; namely a solid capability for limited but effective projection of force abroad and a nuclear retaliation capability. Germany, due to its geographic location, cannot have either, as it must not seem threatening to its neighbours if Europe is to have any kind of stability at all. Poland couldn't possibly chain itself to a Germany poised to pounce at them whenever a hardliner government comes to power and France would have similar reservations, they're highly exposed to attack from the northeast as well. Germany's weakness is why the current state of affairs can exist, with a EU security policy that revolves around the tightly-coupled binary of France with its strong national defense stance and Germany with is baffling lack of strength.

Yet it's widely acknowledged that Germany is a latent nuclear power and could build nuclear weapons and means of delivery very quickly with resources present on its soil if it decided to do so. Even its military, joke of a force that it currently is, is fundamentally built to scale into a very effective modern army relatively quickly (as in a couple of years), they have a lot of expertise, just not a lot of decent hardware or effective organisation. It's likely that they will do some scaling now, depending on how the Ukraine conflict develops further. If they do, it's going to be interesting to see whether that actually works the way it's intended to.

But as long as the US are both capable of and forced to intervene in any major assault in or on Europe, or suffer a huge loss of influence and severe long-term consequences to their economy, being strategically cheap in that department is a pretty solid gamble that brings a bunch of benefits the US cannot enjoy, like being able to treat with Russia and China with a lot less reservations and being perceived as a lot less of a threat (especially in case of Germany). Whether getting cozy with China is a good thing in itself is of course very much open to debate, but the EU powers simply don't have the kinds of interests in the South China Sea that the US have there, that does open up options.

> the same issues plague both sides

Some of the issues are common; most are not, or only superficially so, with what will probably be very different trajectories (by what might well be a large margin). Europe is a very complex place, too, a very old, very cramped constant battlefield (literally; up until recently, there was literally always someone at war there), it is geographically linked to half the world, deeply divided, has few natural resources (left), is perpetually struggling to not lapse right back into constant warfare (that's what the EU is for), has no common language, no common set of ideas or values, no strong common identity and it's chock full of ancient grievances and conflicts papered over very thinly. That gives rise to tensions the US don't share (and vice versa – the unique situation in the US poses challenges that Europe doesn't have).

>The same as everywhere... due to a war and pandemic.

Yes, Europe is at war. Good reminder of the massive social instability occurring on the continent. Scary place to be right now.

The US just took away the constitutional right to bodily autonomy. That kind of internal oppression of ones own citizens is absolutely beyond terrifying, and obviously a bigger worry for social stability.

Europe is not at war. War in Ukraine is due to an external force that affects barely anybody in Europe. What a bizarre nationalistic reply this is, to be so insecure about the landmass you happen to live on.

>The US just took away the constitutional right to bodily autonomy.

Can you point to, say, the UK's constitutional right to bodily autonomy so I can compare? I assume that there will be one as not having a strong constitution guaranteeing these rights is massive internal oppression that is very scary. Also: speaking of the UK and taking away its citizens rights... ever hear of Brexit?

>Europe is not at war. War in Ukraine is due to an external force that affects barely anybody in Europe

Ukraine is not in Europe? Also, the original commenter claimed inflation were a result of war and pandemic. So does it affect people or not?

>What a bizarre nationalistic reply this is, to be so insecure about the landmass you happen to live on.

I agree, the Europeans in this thread are bizarrely nationalistic. My sense is that there's a large contingent of political redditors in here.

People are mostly just pointing out the very objective losses to quality of life in the US compared to Europe, which is a fair answer to the original question.

And day to day quality of life has nothing to do with geopolitics for most people. US just simply ranks far lower than Central Europe and the Nordics in these measurements. A lot of it is just city planning and infrastructure.

Norway has 5 million people, insane gas reserves, is a monoculture of ethnically similar people, has basically no immigration to speak of, and owns 2% of every publicly traded country worth a damn. I can’t believe anyone would point to this country smaller than a single metro area of the USA as something that is replicable.

Ok, take Spain. Quality of life there is just substantially better than pretty much all of the US.

In what way? Do people live on huge ranches / estates, walk through large redwood trees, ski down a glacier, watch professional football/hockey/basketball live? Can they hunt, fish, shoot or run into hollywood celebrities?

Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment?

Quality of live might be great in Barcelona if you like to drink and eat and want to work less. But Spain is so small comoared to the US. The US has so much more variety.. deserts, tundra, forests, palm trees, rocky mountains, cities..

> In what way? Do people live on huge ranches / estates, walk through large redwood trees, ski down a glacier, watch professional football/hockey/basketball live? Can they hunt, fish, shoot or run into hollywood celebrities?

What... world do you live in that Europeans* can't do all of that except the last?

> Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment?

Of course... wtf? lol 76% of people own their homes in Spain. Home ownership in the US is only 65%...

* Spanish people can go anywhere in the EU with just an ID, no passport needed, just like in the US.

Spain is much smaller than Europe and houses are much smaller and salaries are smaller and the political divide is much worse in Spain. Two different states want out and after a vote they arrested the head of state for those regions. The legacy of Franco..

Did you check your numbers this time or are you still just making things up? I'm going to trust you know nothing about the politics of Spain and ignore that comment.

> Two different states want out and after a vote they arrested the head of state for those regions. The legacy of Franco..

You must be trolling. You literally had a civil war for the same exact reason... Unfortunately, no state allows any subset of itself to secede.

I have lived in Spain. Taxes are high, salaries are low, bureaucracy is a lot worse than the US, most people live in small apartments and they certainly don’t own US sized houses. Cost of living can also be high, if one tries to meet the same standard that he would have in US (electricity, gasoline prices are a lot higher).

I could pick pretty much any US state over Spain and with a US engineering salary enjoy a vastly better standard of living.

Enjoying a materially higher standard of living with large houses doesn't really match how people actually enjoy experience and happiness. The thorough social disconnect in the US, in great part explained because said large houses have to be set up in the relative middle of nowhere, counts far more for "standard of living" in my book as well as those of a lot posters here.

Addendum: used to live in a very wealthy suburb in the US. Said houses are creaky, have constant humidity issues because the mildest of winds would blow out the roof tiles, and have a very low standard of construction coming from other places. More square footage is not indicative of a higher quality of life; many rooms sat mostly empty and did nothing for us.

> is a monoculture of ethnically similar people, has basically no immigration to speak

This isn't even true (immigration accounts for half of Norway's population growth) but let's take a more extreme example: Sweden, the country with 7th highest quality of life on planet Earth yet every 1 in 11 people is an immigrant. This single case proves your generalization wrong. Every 16th person is a first generation immigrant originating from outside of Europe.

You seem completely ignorant of the fact that we took hundreds of times more immigrants per capita than any country on Earth yet we all dominate the fuck out of ALL of quality of live rankings.

Norway's population grew under 50,000 which means they welcomed 20,000.. Cities like Toronto are welcoming 10 - 15 times more people from a much wider variety of places.

The ethnicities in Norway are recorded as Norwegian 83.2%, other European 8.3%, other 8.5%

Your vision of Norway and the numbers don't lineup. 92.9% of people are white..

I think you misread what I said.

Take a look at the Abortion Act 1967 if you're acting in good faith.

Europe has a patchwork of abortion laws and generally are far more restrictive than the US, which in many places you can abort very late term. While I support a woman’s right to abort up to a point, the issue is now devolving to the states and ideally will result in less national strife, as it was an arbitrary litmus test for presidential candidates.

I live in Boston and groups here are flying women in and shipping pills out to abort their babies. Acting like it’s a dystopian nightmare because of the Roe overturn is hyperbolic.

1) there was never a federal constitutional right to an abortion. Everyone historically knew Roe vs Wade was a stopgap with tortured reasoning in the actual judgement. There is nothing in the constitution that says ‘rights to whatever medical procedures you want’, or even abortion. Instead the presumption is that everything not mentioned is left to the People and the States to regulate.

2) this ruling doesn’t change that for the states most people live in, Abortion is still legal, and has been legal. And hopefully folks in the other states get less complacent and make their voices heard.

It’s a devolution of the issue to the states. Which sucks for a lot of folks, especially young women with few options. But it isn’t banning abortion nation wide or anything.

If anything, this is now way more like Europe.

"barely anybody in Europe"

Nice.

>I'm guessing you don't speak any European languages or you'd know this isn't true.

Am I missing something or did you respond to a person writing in English? English being a language created in a place called England, which last I checked is in Europe.

not any more! thanks UKIP!

The UK is still in Europe. Europe is a continent. I think you are confusing the European Union and Europe.

Europe is not a single country and even the EU doesn't cover all of it, so it's kind of hard to generalise.

Many of the things you mentioned are not generally true of Switzerland, for example. And OTOH, in Germany, the far right has stagnated and doesn't seem to make further inroads, large companies do continue to be successful but there are especially a lot of mid-sized companies (what's this obsession with growth at all costs?), etc. (let's not forget that one of the mRNA vaccines was developed here).

Yes, there are problems, sometimes even major ones, but I do think you're stereotyping just as much as GP.

This is a life experience, my friend. I don't use Reddit. Anyone who lives in one of the non gamma social levels in Europe knows that life here is better: the bargain made with the metasystem is superior. Only for alpha pluses is the US better, sounds like you are an alpha plus aspirant, good luck.

> Europe...a government and social safety net that is rapidly becoming unaffordable

Germany has had national health for 140 years, and people have said it is "rapidly becoming unaffordable" for 140 years.

I talk to older people who get US health care. It is incredibly expensive compared to other countries (which few deny), and nowadays they can barely get ahold of their doctor.

> a business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decade

Cisco hoovers up many network companies, FAANG hoover up startups, US mobile and land is basically either Verizon or AT&T, the ad agencies, accounting firms, media firms and on and on are all consolidating into a small oligopoly, I can't think of any major sector around a few decades where this has not happened. Europe is not much different.

>This is hilariously inaccurate and essentially a stereotype perceived from the Reddit front page.

I can't pick what was more brain cells-killing to read: bshepard's initial rant, his later claim that he doesn't use Reddit despite having written a comment that could be pulled from /r/politics or /r/worldnews every single day, or eertami's claim that the Ukraine war affects "barely anybody in Europe". Honorable mention: kkfx's claim that a lawyer is needed to get a gym membership in the US.

This comment captures my experience from lowly Eastern Europe as well, even though the US has some exceptional business opportunities.

It's true that money can insulate you from this societal degradation, but because of this approach by the upper class, the income percentile to maintain isolation is getting narrower by the day, until it practically evaporates.

This is a perfectly acceptable view of the United States if you only watch television news.

> Stay here, make this moderately good place even better.

or better yet, come to the us and bring your good influence to help get this troubled place back on track. the political situation in the united states is indeed complex and troubled, but the influence and impact of the united states on western nations is undeniable. if it does implode in some horrific way, it's hard to imagine a scenario where it doesn't drag the rest of the west down with it.

If you preach to a voting base who will vote against you at every turn, good influence has no value. You can only go where you are welcome to share, where ideas can be safely and intelligently discussed, and reasonable people can come to some sort of compromise or a solution all can agree on.

US politics have become too polarized, where constituents don't want solutions (evidenced by them voting for representatives who don't vote in the public interest, or who publicly gloat about hurting the other side through policy), and no one person has the power to move the needle (not to mention Citizen's United where the wealthy can pour unfathomable amounts of fiat into races to back their candidates and their politics). Know when to hold them, and know when to fold them.

EDIT: And it's not just the elected. A SCOTUS Justice motivated purely by hate.

https://www.businessinsider.com/clarence-thomas-told-clerks-...

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/27/us/2-years-after-his-brui...

> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas told his law clerks in the '90s that he wanted to serve for 43 years to make liberals' lives 'miserable'

(us citizen leaving for western europe)

> Know when to hold them, and know when to fold them.

i understand and appreciate the desire to walk away. it's the classic, quiet, dignified and usually effective response to insanity. (and american politics, for the last 6 years at least, has been nothing short of insanity)

but unfortunately i don't think it works that way. i think that leaving only serves to both export polarization and make matters worse. i suspect the us is too big and the world is too small.

Please make sure to keep voting after you move, as much as it might feel like spitting in the wind and yet another annual hassle - you really have to stay on top of both your voter registration, as well as your annual overseas ballot request, at least for Texas (every state has different voting from abroad policies, even different policies for military vs. non)

The official government website to help you navigate this is fvap.gov. The Democrats Abroad one that provides even more handholding and optional nagging: votefromabroad.org. They’ve only ever called to remind me that elections were occurring in Texas, and early enough that I could work out ballot issues, and then a follow-up a week or so before I really need to have that ballot in the mail.

I’m a semi-rural Texas voter who regularly has unsatisfying conversations with Ted Cruz’s snotty staffers and John Cornyn’s slightly politer ones, hanging up the phone to go enjoy the life I’ve made for myself in southern Germany.

> Please make sure to keep voting after you move

Absolutely. My geography does not absolve me of my responsibility to do so.

Complaining about polarization and people not wanting solutions is fine, but saying "A SCOTUS Justice motivated purely by hate." isn't helping matters. It is just continuing the very thing you are complaining about.

If you are doing something out of malice for decades to a group of people, that is hate, and I will call it out as such. Your false equivalency holds no water, and while I provided receipts in my original comment, I’ll let Rep. Jeffries do some lifting here.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3485737-hakeem-jeffries-t...

> Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) this week blasted Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas for his stance on a number of issues facing the court, including abortion rights. “Let me ask this question of brother Thomas,” Jeffries said during a House Judiciary Committee hearing this week. “Why are you such a hater? Hate on civil rights. Hate on women’s rights. Hate on reproductive rights. Hate on voting rights. Hate on marital rights. Hate on equal protection under the law. Hate on liberty and justice for all. Hate on free and fair elections. Why are you such a hater?”

See? Hate.

I'm pretty sure quoting somebody who is calling somebody a hater is not proof they are a hater. Even if Thomas is a hater calling him out is just leading to more polarization.

This post brought to you by the front page of Reddit.com.

This is either a troll response or you’re outright detached from reality.

I freelance and love it. The hard part for you will be getting your foot in the door. I’m about your age, and so far haven’t had any problems with employers in our industry. The rise of remote work probably helps you a bit with the employment side of your question.

As for the negative comments, what the comments here don’t address is this: the US is almost more like a bunch of countries rather than one single entity. Which of the states you choose- and which city— makes a huge difference as to your experience. There are absolute hell holes (Flint, Michigan comes to mind) and surprisingly pleasant places (my town of Greenville, SC which was run by an Austrian mayor for so long that it has a fairly European feel to it).

On average, the food here is worse. The bread is much worse. The coffee is terrible. But you can find great bread, coffee, etc if you go out of your way to do so (I do). And in NJ and NY metro areas, you’ll have plenty of good options.

The healthcare system is dumb and annoying, but fine (where I am) as long as you have insurance (which you should have through your wife). The fact that your healthcare is tied to your employer is so, so dumb. If you freelance and get a visa, maybe you can buy your own. That’s what I do, and it’s my preference.

Politically, we are really more divided than I can remember in my lifetime. But it doesn’t affect me at all in my day to day life. I suspect the next two years will be pretty rough if you care about politics. Personally, I just tune it out. I vote. But other than that, I focus on my family, job, local community, and hobbies, and I’m quite happy here.

Edit: one more thing: my wife and I are considering moving to France. I work remotely, so this is simpler for us than for many. Our plan is to start by testing the waters with a long term (3 months or so) rental. If you can do something similar, do it!

Thanks for your thoughts.

I visited the US in the past (hell, me best trip ever was an epic coast to coast with a Marine friend) and I'm aware of the differences.

Cultural differences are ok, this is why we consider moving - and why I moved a lot around in the past.

My main concern is about getting to an age where I can't really afford severe financial missteps.

Our "purchase power" here in Berlin is very very high and as much I consider Berlin a messed-up city the overall quality of life is stellar.

I can afford to stay put for a while (in fact, that is the plan in case we move, so I can support my kids with school etc.), but I want to make sure that, when my stay at home dad period ends, I can get to an income level that is close to our situation in Berlin.

Doesn't have to be the same, but I don't want to end up loosing money over the move.

A few last thoughts: NJ can be pretty expensive. My family there spent more per month on property taxes than I spent in a year on mortgage, property tax, and insurance combined on a larger home in SC. I’m not sure if you have a choice in what city you are choosing, but if you do, it pays to shop around, so to speak.

If you’re willing to forego freelancing there are some great remote-first companies that will pay you well. Elastic is an absolutely amazing place to work, and they have a decent German cohort, too.

Why do you find Berlin a messed up city?

Because it's a dirty, messed up hell hole, in comparison to the rest of Germany.

You mentioned supporting your kids with school. University is quite expensive in the US compared to Germany, even if your children decide to go to an “in-state” college. You might want to look into that, especially if they will be out regular school age within the next ten years.

I looked at your comment history, because I was thinking , “wow that guy must have it pretty good in Berlin.” And yes, as you say, you have a very very high purchase power in Berlin. I think you will find that it will be quite expensive in NJ to replicate your quality of life as you are not nearly as far up the income percentiles for the NYC metropolitan area. We spend part of the year in Warsaw and feel like kings, then we go back to Florida and feel distinctly more plebeian. I would say everyone can adapt, but for example if you wanted to replicate the amenities in Berlin you will find yourself in an extraordinarily expensive and near-unicorn walkable neighborhood. If you prefer a car based life then your cost of living in rural NJ will be much lower (and you will also probably be able to afford a nicer car without all those auto and fuel taxes).

I don’t know much about the relative school quality for your kids, but do know that in the US schools are funded locally so people spend a lot to be in the zone of a desirable school or otherwise go private. Since the difference between good and bad schools can be enormous, you will end up paying for this one way or another.

I'm an American (Texan) who has been living in Germany for the past 6 years. I would suggest to consider the culture and lifestyle more than the work, as those will play a much larger role in your happiness and satisfaction. It sounds cliché, but money doesn't necessarily buy happiness.

I enjoy living in German/European cities significantly more than I did living in big cities in Texas (I can't speak for the East Coast). I value the culture of being able to walk or bike pretty much anywhere in the city in a reasonable amount of time. I value feeling safe even in the "bad" neighborhoods here in Germany. I've never once come across a situation where I was worried about my safety here, I can't say the same for the US. I value a society that isn't so extreme (wealth inequality, political ideology, etc.).

As for what I miss about the US, it's mostly the food (TexMex, BBQ) and nature (so much more to see and do, but you need a car). There's also the work culture which is a bit different, particularly in terms of startups and innovation; Germany definitely lags behind in this aspect. Some things are more convenient in the US as well, such as stores being open later and on Sundays.

Germany isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the US in a lot of quality of life aspects.

Before moving, I would recommend going to visit the city and see if it's something that might fit you. Try to talk to locals and explain your situation, I'm sure there would be people happy to show you around and give you some good insights from a less touristy perspective.

Of course, all of this is hard to weigh if your wife will be living there for certain, as long-distance relationships can be tough.

Hey thanks for your comment, I feel this thread is turning a bit into a US vs. EU pitfight.

We are going to be in NYC in a couple of weeks and we plan to spend one day in Princeton, as you suggest.

Regarding the long term relationship, if we move we are going to move as a family (2 kids included :))

Happy to contribute what perspective I can :). I didn't mean to put it as a hostile US vs. EU thing, just wanted to state my reasons for going the other way.

I saw in another comment that you said it would only be for a few years. In that case it's a bit different as I was going off of the assumption it was long-term/permanent, so it could be a more worthwhile experience.

I would say that it could even be beneficial for the kids in terms of their English skills and getting a more worldly experience. Most Germans I know speak good English, but some of those who have done study abroad programs in the US have definitely mastered the language and accent, which is especially useful in STEM as almost all research is done in English these days.

yes, the English learning experience for my kids is the first thing I thought when this opportunity started to became concrete.

Sorry, I didn't mean your comment was polarized, the opposite. Yours was one of the few balanced comments in this thread so far (also don't want to discount other HNers comments, this is hugely useful for me)

> Regarding the long term relationship, if we move we are going to move as a family (2 kids included :))

Have a plan for covering your family members' health insurance. You can use this website to compare NJ's individual marketplace for health insurance plans here[1].

Get the details of what your partner's employer is offering for health insurance, including what the costs are for each additional member of your family. Find out what the total cost of coverage is for COBRA should your partner be laid off and you want to keep your healthcare coverage. Health insurance rates skyrocket when it comes to covering family members if your employer isn't paying your premiums and deductibles for you. Family plans can have deductibles alone of over $14k every year, with premiums in the thousands of dollars per month.

Once you know the details of the offered plans, use the insurance company's website to see if there are any providers that take the plans in your area, including hospitals and emergency rooms. I say this because even if you have health insurance, that doesn't mean healthcare providers will take it. It's especially important with kids, because if you need to take them to the emergency room, you will be paying a large premium for doing so even if you get little to no care at all. It's very easy to walk away from a emergency room visit with a bill for tens of thousands of dollars for even minor emergencies.

You'll also need separate vision and dental insurance plans.

If you or anyone in your family has disabilities, or are at risk of becoming disabled, really, really consider if you want to leave a place with relatively cheaper and sane healthcare for another place without it. The US is not a kind place for those with disabilities or chronic illness.

[1] https://www.nj.gov/getcoverednj/getstarted/compare/

As a counterpoint I had a knife randomly pulled on me earlier this week in Munich. I’m sure this could have happened in the US too but I wouldn’t call Germany free from violent crime.

Do not go. Here's why:

1) You have no network in the US. You will have to start from scratch. Remember how you started. Multiply difficulty level by 2. And you're not going to be any younger.

2) Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU. This nullifies gains from moving to the US. Add cost of moving everything over long range by plane/cargo ship.

3) Healthcare cost. My friend asked me once about cost of dental care in Ireland (where I live now). I replied 'it depends, between 30-60 euro'. He was quoted 13000 dollars for one tooth job. Think about this double hard, you're 50 and you won't get any younger.

4) Friends and your peers will stay in the EU. You won't see any of them for months and years. Factor in plane ticket prices. You won't be coming home to visit family for Christmas.

Just few things from top of my head, but I think they are important.

>Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU

On HN, we hear all the time that the inverse is true. Is it because high salaries are limited to Silicon Valley?

In Western Europe, freelancers with good credentials and a large network can have yearly gross revenuу of 100..200k€. Is this comparable to US freelance revenue?

I’m at the upper end of that spectrum, so I think yes.

I guess one difference is how much of the gross income goes to taxes/social insurance contributions. This can differ a lot from country to country.

> You won't be coming home to visit family for Christmas.

Especially if COVID-19 or similar comes back. That cut me off from my family for multiple years.

who would pay 13000$ for one tooth? that can cover air tickets, vacation, tooth job and extra money to save in most of the world including most EU countries, that's insane price

...that was end user price, after factoring in private insurance plan. For 13000, you can buy tickets in both directions, vacation, tooth job - and buy local car in the target country if renting one exceeds 1000 usd [1].

[1] https://extra.ie/2022/06/12/news/tourists-cancelling-trips-t...

Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU.

Do you mean the opposite?

Lots of anti American comments in this thread, so I’ll attempt to actually answer your question. Background - I’m an American who moved abroad for 12 years (UK) and returned after Brexit.

Salaries are much higher than the EU. But in some cities cost of living is high. Coming from Berlin, you’ll have an easier time finding an apartment, but it will be expensive. I’d expect to pay $2000 to $2500 per month for a decent apartment in Princeton. Also, you will require a car. Public transport here is not feasible for the most part. A decent car will be $250 per month base, plus $100 to $200 insurance per month, plus fuel. Food is cheap and plentiful. The portion sizes are twice as large for the same equivalent price as the EU :). Make sure you get healthcare coverage through your wife’s job - this shouldn’t be a problem. If you are both in good health you should be fine. If you have preexisting medical conditions then it will likely be much more expensive for you here than in the EU.

> Lots of anti American comments in this thread

Probably the time zone. Better to ask this question in the afternoon in europe.

So you can get a bunch of American nationalists who have never been to Europe answering? You're dismissing people who have actually lived in both places.

Calling out obvious issues one needs to be aware of is not anti American.

I could find lots of things wrong with both US and Germany. Everywhere has its problems and nowhere is perfect. I’ve spent time in just about everywhere and lived in a multitude of environments and cultures. I’m happiest living in Rochester, NY than I was anywhere else. It’s all personal preference, but the “issues” mentioned in other comments were not constructive nor related to the OPs questions.

> Food is cheap and plentiful. The portion sizes are twice as large for the same equivalent price as the EU :).

As someone who moved from EU to the US for 6 years and recently got back: the quality of the food is way lower there, though. As in: food standards imposed are significantly lower. I ended buying mostly organic food at Costco after my body significantly changed within first 6 months.

EDIT: don't know why I am being downvoted: the food standards difference is based on actual facts, not my personal experience, it doesn't take a lot of googling to compare the sheer numbers. Or if you're lazy just consider the mere fact that salmonella is still a thing in the US, which is why all eggs are washed before the sale.

Food standards might be lower, but I would argue that the food quality is better, depending on the country in the EU.

Here in Germany, 25% of meat bought in grocery stores doesn't follow the most basic of butchering standards set forth: https://www.ua-bw.de/pub/beitrag.asp?subid=0&Thema_ID=2&ID=2...

What you get in the US is choice - and as a software engineer, you have the money to make those choices. Shop at Whole Foods, not the local gas station, and you will see there is a world of difference.

That's one mistake I see Europeans make - they apply a European world view to the US, and don't understand the wide spectrum of choices. Here in Europe, most things are equal or about the same. This mentality is even applied to universities (ask a German which university is "the best", and you will receive a confused look).

Whether you think all of this is morally correct is a different question.

For a fair comparison, what percentage of meat bought in US grocery stores follows the most basic German butchering standards?

It's true that any given German grocery store has fewer choices than any given US one, but extrapolating that to "there are no choices" is absurd. Germany has more choices of grocery store, and in both countries if you really want good meat you go to a real butcher (definitely not Whole Foods) anyway.

Your comment about universities must be a joke, or your social circle lacks any kind of discrminating ability. I've had multiple conversations with a dozen Germans about exactly this topic in the past month regarding our recruitment/hiring practices.

I don't know the statistics, but I've never encountered bone splinters in any meat I've ever eaten in the US.

As for the universities, it's not like I made this up. I'm well aware of the broad differences in quality of education (and futhermore, healthcare) here, but my comment wasn't about me and this is not an invention of mine, it is a widely held belief: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/comments/ay5nrs/which_un...

I also didn't say "there are no choices", so I don't know who you're quoting here. What I was trying to explain is the European worldview being applied to the US, where there is much vaster inequality between universities, products, income, etc. I didn't attempt to make a value judgement about it, I was trying to show a common pitfall of Europeans arriving in the US: it's important that you know where you're shopping, it's important that you know where you're going to school, and it's important that you know what neighborhood you're in. In Germany, you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime.

A reddit thread with 15 comments, several of which disagree with your claim, is not a "widely held belief"!

> you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime.

This is unreal. Is this some Bavarian bullshit? Nobody in the north believes it.

> In Germany, you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime

I was never to the US and maybe it is worse there. Don't want to compare but your statement is just plain wrong and the people always telling this as a mantra just never have lived in a bad neighborhood and/or do not have kids.

washed refrigerated eggs are pretty standard also in many European countries, that's not exactly helping your argument though I agree US standards are lower than EU

Well, washing eggs nor refrigerating pre-purchase cannot be standard, because it's pretty much forbidden:

"4.3. Washing of eggs

The practice of washing eggs of class A for human consumption is forbidden by the European Union legislation."

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:52...

Class A eggs are basically the only type you'd buy for consumption. I, for one, have not once found Class B eggs in a store. AFIK Class B are used in food manufacturing only.

Then why are eggs refridgerated if they are not washed? Also I wonder what is definition of washing, because often eggs I buy are perfectly clean.

Class A eggs are also forbidden from refrigeration, because unwashed eggs can develop mildew and contaminate other products. Everywhere I bought eggs in EU, they were on the regular store shelf, not in refrigerator.

I don't know what's your definition of perfectly clean, but eggs in EU are not perfectly clean in comparison to the US ones. The latter look like they're literally bleached. Not a single spot on the shell. The eggs I buy in EU, code 0-2, are quite dirty, with residue on them.

So that's definitely wrong most likely same as washed eggs ban, because at least in Czechia in Slovakia you will find them refridgerated in every single supermarket and in plenty other EU countries, I remember even discussion about this on HN. By perfectly clean I mean perfectly smooth surface without any dirt or anything attached to shell, maybe they differ between brushing and washing.

Don't know how to explain it, then. Never once seen eggs in refrigerator in Poland, for example. Maybe they're not Grade A? As in the cheapest eggs available would be Grade B.

Nah, they place there all kinds of eggs, no matter if cheap or fancy bio eggs, it's almost always refridgerated, only sometimes they place cheapest big boxes of 30-60 eggs on pallet next to refridgerator make sure they are in chilled enviroment, so actually the cheapest are sometimes not refridgerated.

> Food is cheap and plentiful.

Compared to some of Europe yes, compared to Germany absolutely not.

> anti American comments in this thread

It's weird that describing things accurately is considered "anti-American." The question was answered multiple times though: If he does get a higher salary, much is going to be wasted on making up for deficiencies of the US that may be invisible to a German (especially wrt. health, food quality, security, social services, etc.)

It is not weird. It is normal. Billions of dollars spent for propaganda of American dream. And it is global. This is the power of an utopian idea. People need belief in the success. Critical thinking was never popular, but nowadays is the exception of the rule.

> It is not weird. It is normal. Billions of dollars spent for propaganda of American dream. And it is global. This is the power of an utopian idea. People need belief in the success. Critical thinking was never popular, but nowadays is the exception of the rule.

Yeah, definitely, but you'd still expect people here to do better. Nobody who hasn't lived in both even needs to comment really.

The top comment is about as anti-American as it can get. Apparently we’re all drug addicts and burning our own houses to the ground.

It’s important to generalize for the sake of the OPs questions, but saying nonsense doesn’t help anyone.

That's what I'm talking about, it's just a completely accurate description and you're freaking out saying it said things that it didn't say! Zero things in it are false, but what you're claiming is:

> massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues

This is a fact and it's not "[you're] all drug addicts and burning your own houses to the ground."

The only way you can get upset is to straw man it really hard.

I find it hilarious that you think I’m freaking out.

I’m laying in bed listening to the birds chirp, trying to provide some level commentary.

I read the top comment and chuckled hard. It’s not even close to real. Social media is amplifying some really skewed info.

Try living here, it’s beautiful.

I lived there half my life. It's a wasteland in comparison. That's how I know from first-hand experience and immersion in both sets of media that this isn't about "skewed info" but a complete lack of info for some people who have never lived somewhere they're comparing their country with. This guy is asking about where to go be old, which is a real thing that's going to effect his life... to me going back to the US as an old person is a nightmare. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, especially in the current state of deterioration.

first hand experience = anecdote, which in turn means it's a completely,m worthlessly unreliable indicator of a general factual and statistical situation. You're confusing your specific impression from your life in a very tiny part of the vast tapestry that is the United States with a massive generalization that you claim is factual. Anyone here claiming that the Americans suffer from X or Y awful thing at absurd levels should actually try backing it up with a link or two to hard data that shows how much more these bad things apply to Americans than they do to those living in the (apparently) European paradise. As one comment a bit further down notes (no link to a source but at least they make a statistical claim) French people are on average among the world's biggest users of psych medication.

It might be beautiful _for you_. Nobody's saying you can't find a lot of beautiful places and experiences in the US. But it's marred by a degree of neuroticism that explains why so many people I know in the US have friends with issues with drug dependency and overuse (prescribes and illegal), health issues, and vibe that goes between depressing and fake.

>massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues

>this is a fact

Do you actually believe it is a fact that the US suffers from “massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues?” If so you need to reconsider the definition of a fact and/or reconsider your sources of information.

Absurd hyperbole which is outright detached from reality regurgitated by you as fact. And you have the nerve to tell this other person they’re “straw man really hard.”

Next level.

It's not absurd. When I was in elementary in the US 20 years ago I was _astounded_ at how medicated children were and how many kids suffered from the most random allergies.

It's not poverty in the classical sense of a third-world country for sure. Doesn't make it any better.

France has the highest per capita psych medication usage.

There are many contract opportunities in the US, often paying more than in Europe, sometimes a LOT more. You didn't provide details about what you do and how much you make, so it's hard to be sure in your particular case. You will be close to NYC, which also opens many opportunities. You could use some job search engine like Indeed to look around a little in your area of expertise.

This said, the visa issue could be a major hurdle and it's important to do your homework about this work visa that will be given to you.

Regarding the negativity about living in the USA... I immigrated to this country 20 years ago and I love it. I would never trade the US for Europe, despite Europe being an interesting place. It's not fun being poor in the US, like in most of the world, but I think overall it's an amazing country with lots of opportunities, great quality of life and wonderful people.

I think I’m in your camp, but unfortunately stuck in Europe. Does it make sense to vote with your feet when you’re 44?

If you line up a good opportunity in the US, it could. At 44 you probably made decisions based on the expectations for Europe's safety net when you get older. This would be reset when coming to the US. But depending on what you do, it's possible to command enormous salaries in the US, in which case this move would make a lot of sense.

How hard would you say it is to get one's foot in the door as a newcomer?

My experience servicing US clients from Europe has been great so far. Most clients are easygoing and communicate really well. Also, it seems to me that most care more about what you can do for them as opposed to random credentials and whatnot. In parts of Europe, and especially in Germany, there's still this obsession with having the right degree, and people would proudly feature all their degrees in their email signature :D

Anyways, I'm close to OP's age and will be coming to NYC later this year to open an app dev shop. I'm working on getting a few contracts going before I land but I suppose it should get easier when I can start pounding the pavement, right?

You have not provided enough context for anyone to give you useful advice. We would need to know your hourly or daily rate and to basically see your resume to have any chance of giving a rate range. There is also the issue of taxes which make comparisons less straightforward.

That said, I think you can generally expect IT pay to be higher in US major cities than almost anywhere in the EU. The US also has the concept of consulting. That runs the range, you could be working for a body shop agency for no more pay than a salary where the agency takes up to 50% of the client’s rate. You could also be an independent consultant where you run your own company and directly market and contract with your clients for 2 or 3 times the pay. The latter takes a personal network and a reputation. If your current clients pay you well, why not just properly structure things and work for them from the US?

Besides pay, there is the issue of cost of living. You could have the option to live in a fairly rural area and commute into Princeton. Cost of living can be fairly low in the US outside major cities or some of the highest in the world within them. It is a big country with much variance.

One last thing: you will find that the US is basically still the barbarian lands in comparison to Europe, history has a long arm. That can be good or bad depending on you, but don’t be shocked when you find out that the country is bordering on anarchy in comparison to Germany, expect it.

Fair point, I didn't want to turn the post into a vanity context.

My daily rate is around 1k euro + 19% vat. Note that I have multiple clients, so in some good months the above figure is higher.

My tax pressure is around 43%, including health insurance.

You are already at a reasonably high rate, even compared to the US. That rate is about 250k annualized, which is a good senior developer salary at most companies outside the big tech companies. It is possible to make more consulting, but it would require the hard work of building your US client base. Specialization matters as well. I think you might have trouble finding many projects through agencies, as that rate is higher that most Agency rates I’ve heard quoted, but again it depends on specialization.

So no, there’s no low hanging fruit here. I’m sure you could improve your rate in the US by 2x or 3x by running your own business, but as you are already in a very optimal place there would be hard work involved. And honestly, Americans put longer hours in, pathologically, so you may find the return on investment to work for American clients to be distinctly lacking.

Can you make a test move for just a few months and see if you like it?

Employment aside, there are other things that matters when you change countries / continents. As an European, I wouldn't like to move permanently to the US.

If you are making enough money in Europe, I don't see much incentives to move to US.

Interesting work? A love for liberty? Less crab mentality?

Sorry, as a somewhat disgruntled European I couldn’t resist.

That'd be France you're describing. Plus, the food is better there :)

Is it? This may be heresy, but I found the food in the US to be better than in France. If you're willing to spend a lot of money it may be better in France, but for ordinary eating out I've found the US to be better. Patisserie is better in France, though.

I think so. But we mostly cook, so ingredient availability/price is more important than restaurants, which however I also found much better in France. Of course it probably depends on the areas you visit and how you select restaurants. Paris is full of tourist traps. In the US regional differences were enourmous.

Just the fact that you’re focused on the food makes me think you’re totally wrong. ;)

France has one of the highest tax-to-gdp ratios in the world (46%). If you like government constraints it’s not the place to be.

What does "love for liberty" mean to you?

I guess it could be summarized as the feelings expressed by Thomas Jefferson et al in the US Declaration of Independence.

Few people understand and value those feelings today, but I’m one of those few. I’m not naive enough to think that the US is full of people like me, but there are more of us over there, and it’s not socially acceptable to piss on us endlessly (as it is in Sweden I’d say).

As a Swede I don't get the pissing analogy

We don't plan to move permanently to the US, we are thinking between 2 and 5 years.

If we would be very, very unhappy I guess we could pack and leave, but that would be a worst case scenario that I'd like to avoid for the enormous stress that it would cause.

few months will hardly cover honeymoon period, so it can help if he can realize things quickly but some things take at least 1-2 years to start coming to you

Concrete data point: My neighbor (a German) moved to the East Coast a year ago (for wife’s job) and has zero intention of moving back (they have bought a house).

Obviously lots of details; they are in academia, have an 8yo, were most recently in the UK, etc. But they have their skin in the game and made choose USA.

> they are in academia,

Makes me wonder if they draw a lucky ticket like tenure. Because for most cases, the opposite would make more sense.

If anything goes wrong (or they realise what that kid's college education will cost) they have the option of pitching the house, likely with a gain large enough to buy anything they'd like back in Germany, and move back to the social safety net without much fuss.

Especially well-played to move to the US as soon as the kid is old enough to no longer need special medical care or a daycare.

There are worse descriptions of a country than “Zero risk shot at huge upside“!

I’m certainly glad my ancestors took it.

There are also better descriptions of a country than "it's great, as long as you're not from here."

I don’t think people realise quite how good we have it in Europe. I would not leave Europe to live in America for any amount of money.

You do you, but a lot of the horror stories about the US relate to disadvantaged people (financially and otherwise). If “Any amount of money” is >$5M I guarantee you could buy a house in a quiet but close-to-a-city neighborhood, and have plenty left over for healthcare. You will read the same headlines about outrageous injustice that you currently are, but be in a better position to help fix them.

Yeah but anyone can become disadvantaged.

Note: sorry, my english is not my native language

My only advice(s) as someone in mid '40s are: 1. Don't jump to such a sudden and radical change, many-many things in US are vastly different that what are you accustom (strong point since you're from Germany) 2. Give it a try since you're mostly working as freelancer, spend 1-2mo (tourist visa) so you will not break up from your wife 3. See how's living there, if you can accommodate 4. Let us know (start ablog) :)

Moving to the US at this point would be like buying a ticket on the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg.

But sure, why not?

Underrated comment

I think you could say this about many regions in the world at the moment to be fair. Covid has made a lot of simmering issues escalate all around the world.

During Vietnam there were hundreds of bombings in the US per year.

If you have medical issues for anyone in your family, think a million times before moving to the United States. Unless you have very good health insurance, you’re fucked, financially.

Other things like infrastructure, political polarization etc are very real. But there are also lots of opportunities in tech, salaries are higher than Europe but the work culture is worse - expect to work longer hours than Europe, little paid leave, fire at will etc. These are personal choices and compromises.

If things don’t work out, can you easily move back to Berlin? If yes, maybe it is worth taking a chance and spend a couple of years here and see how it goes?

Let me give you a less doom and gloom outlook than I’m seeing here :) I’m a native born American who has spent a few years living in a developing country. USA can be a great place to call home. I can’t explain how much I missed the friendliness of people here when living abroad. Not hearing “how are you” and not seeing smiles for years made my heart cold. It’s just so lovely how easy it is to talk to strangers here.

If you’re able to move over, I’d sincerely recommend hitting the road and seeing everything usa has to offer on a series of road trips. You and your wife will love it!

I would closely research the health care situation. When you're young, white, male and invincible the US may well be a good choice, but later in life when a bad health care bill is typically just around the corner you will want to be very careful about such decisions.

In Germany not a whole lot can happen, in the United States you may well be on the receiving end of the stick.

And that's before we get into the speed with which the whole of the world as we knew it seems to be unraveling, including the USA, but I can see some arguments for being safer there than in Berlin.

Watch out for copayment. Make sure your visa is in order. Make sure there’s a social security and tax treaty in place (probably is, but…). Hope you have no pre-existing medical conditions (prob ok with ACA). There’s good and bad in all countries and regions, so make sure you select areas that are congruent to your interests.

Interesting to hear peoples perception of America on here. A lot seems to be based off a short visit or reading online comments of disgruntled Americans. Additionally, some of the issues outlined, such as the gym membership issue, I have never experienced in my entire life nor know anyone who has had that issue.

If you have visited you probably went to one of 3-4 cities or a tourist attraction, neither is really indicative of how most Americans live.

How about us who have lived in the US and have been coming and going since the 90s as well as having done that in a few places in Europe too?

The 90s were peak US. The last 6 years have seen a very, very quick decline.

zoom has let agile east coast firms work with international contractors which i expect to compress US freelance rates and inflate international rates towards the US mean. the only markets you gain access to by moving to Princeton is NYC and west coast timezones as remote worker. my main question is how you will source contracts which is the determinant of if you are competing with local or remote talent. My NYC contracts, as a freelancer living in Philadelphia, all came from NYC software meetups combined with a strong online presence in the relevant community. Cities in the US are not nearly as closely located as Europe where there are 10 cities within 3 hrs commute of any point so if you’re going to get contracts from IRL networking you have to focus on one city. if you don’t plan to benefit from NYC proximity i don’t know if you will gain advantage living here. Also you may experience ageism in NYC market as it is extremely competitive.

I'm an European IT professional who lives on the East Coast for more than a decade. You for sure can find 6-12 months gigs, but my experience is that it will take time to find the good ones, that pay well and don't treat their contractors as second class citizens. You need to build a network and that may take years. Also ageism in IT industry exists. For people over 50 the expectation is one to be in the management or maybe in very niche industry that has high demand for IT professionals. I think your quality of life will go south in NJ. You should look into this from many angles and payment is only one of them.

Making your wife happy will certainly makes you happy. So if your wife is super excited about this, just follow her for the best or worse. Youll be together so youll be fine.

Id tell her that you will follow her wherever she goes. Its cliche I know but wouldnt you want to hear the same?

A couple of comments as a European who lives and works in the US:

- I'm surprised that you find salaries lower in the US than in Europe. That said, if you compared freelance/consulting rates to salaries, that's Apples and Oranges. If you compare salaried positions, even on the East Coast, the salaries should be noticeably higher than in Germany. The extremely high compensation that people in some posts are talking about are generally found in a few, extremely high cost of living areas on the West Coast.

- I would expect AWS focused cloud migration consulting to be in demand in the US more or less the same way it is in Europe. That said, you'll be in competition with the usual consulting/outsourcing suspects and with no network, that might be a bit of an issue.

- The big financial hit for freelancers over here tends to be health insurance, and that's going to be rather expensive at your age (I'm a few years older than you). If your wife's job does offer health insurance for both of you, that's a major bonus. In fact that's pretty much what keeps me from freelancing with 30+ years experience (I used to freelance in Europe).

- Yes, there are differences in the quality of life over here. Not all of it is applicable to freelancers for whom paid vacation time isn't a thing, but it's a different mentality when it comes to work here for a lot of people.

To put not too fine a point to it, yes, your age can be an issue. Despite age discrimination being illegal, it's still rampant in this industry. OTOH I don't have that many problems finding work, and I work with a few people who are older than me and also don't have those issues. A lot of it depends on the company you're working for or with - some of them are looking for cheap young cannon fodder, others are willing to pay for experience and deal with grumpy old people :).

The other question you need to answer for yourself is the motivation for moving over here, even temporarily. If you're looking to make untold riches quickly, it's probably not that great an idea. While you should be able to at least match your German income over here, it might take a few years to get back to that level.

I moved also with 50 for 3 years, and it made sense to me then. Of course I'm happily back.

NY pays good, the rest in the East not so, comparable to Germany. Living in third world countries is always interesting.

free-lancing is easy, but also easy to find (and loose) a job. you'd might get a H1-B, which means you would be tied to a company. Or a O1, then you are free to choose. everybody can get a O1 there, you just need some references of excellence. eg for dancing in strip clubs, or doing DJ'ing.

You already have a work permit?

My wife's company will provide a work permit.

I would double check this - assuming your wife will be going over on an H1B or L1 visa (edit: correction: L1 can get you an L2 as a spouse), as a spouse you would not be allowed to work in the US.

If Princeton probably O1

which would mean no work permit for a spouse

+1 having gone through the US immigration system, it doesn't quite work as a reasonable immigrant would think. Before you move, make sure to talk to a US immigration lawyer. The process will be long and painful unless she's moving to a university or for a religious job where some exceptions apply.

You might find yourself in a spot where you're not allowed to work, even for European clients legally

Thanks, yes this is something I need to determine ASAP - even though the move should realistically take place next year, so I should have some time to figure things out, visa-wise

My wife job is for a European company, no UNI or religious context.

As the spouse of L1 you get an L2 which lets you work for any employer including yourself as long as the L1 is active. With the L2 you get an EAD on arrival and do not have to wait for months to get it.

Ah yes correct, thanks. I have updated my comment.

A friend of mine moved to US on L1, with his wife. It took them 5 years before the wife got EAD (work permit). It is possible that they fucked the process up, and it can be done faster, just wanted to mention it here.

And if that's 'at will' employment you may well end up finding out what it is like to be without a safety net if the spouse should get fired.

But in this event, we could move back to Europe, no?

Moving isn't free. I've done it, twice. And every time it feels like starting all over again.

Are you permanently moving, or is it likely to be temporary (a few years at most)?

I suppose not too much can go wrong. I have a feeling quality of life might be slightly lower, compared to what I'm told about Berlin. If you don't like it you can move back.

Despite what you hear on the news about the internal issues there, my opinion (based on spending a few years there) is that America is a cool place.

Realistically, you will need to earn NYC wages to afford living in NJ, but employers in and around Princeton expect to pay workers half of those wages. It's also a culturally devoid area and highly car dependent. You'd have a better bet freelancing in either Philadelphia or New York.

Hi, ok I thought that Princeton was everything but "culturally devoid". Do you mind elaborating on that?

Having lived there, in my experience it was mostly wealthy people and their adult children that lived there, and it was your typical upper middle class suburb. It's a boring, at least to me, monoculture compared to the two cities it sits between, or even New Brunswick. If you didn't come from money, it was an insular place to be. The people I knew, and myself, couldn't wait to get out of there.

Note that there are 2-3 posters in this thread spamming it with their opinions to push a certain narrative.

Two neighbors, ex-USA Citizens have give up the Citizenship to cut their tie with the IRS... They often say "America is here" (France).

IME if you plan a short migration for a project, witch means go, earn enough money, come back and you do not need ANY KIND of health services in the foreseeable meantime it's ok. If not...

USA level of services is third world compared to EU, bureaucracy is byzantine, surely you might earn much more in absolute terms, just to spend much more in countless fees, you get, perhaps depending from a place to another, very nice nature, nice colleagues, parties, spaces, ... It's an experience, but definitively not a country I'll ever choose or recommend compared to EU. Financially is a nonsense if not for a limited period of time, being healthy, etc.

My suggestion is NOT just asking about salaries but also about cost of living, about all the bureaucracy you need, about how to find a lawyer (because yes, you need one, even just to subscribe to a local gym) etc.

You need a lawyer just to subscribe to a local gym?

That's an exaggeration yes, but not that much: I was in the USA for a project, I want to try a local gym and they give me a 60+ pages or so contracts!

Here, and at least in most EU country, the contract is just one page with the list of services and the relative monthly or per-entry fee + privacy notice. It's not even a real contract in the end. All I need is a generic medical certificate that declare I'm healthy enough to go to the gym.

Surely it's not a valid meter for a country, but still a significant sign of really exaggerated bureaucracy where a lawyer might be needed just to be sure not get trapped somewhere.

The US has a lot of issues but needing a lawyer to join the local gym is a gross exaggeration. Nobody is doing that.

The inherent view so many Europeans have of the US based solely on news or anecdotes from expats is pretty amusing sometimes.

Nobody is getting a lawyer just to sign up at a gym, and our incomes are comically higher for skilled persons than European salaries. I literally make 10 times what my French counterpart would in my profession and with a much lower tax rate so the real difference is even larger. I could work for 5 years and retire in France wealthier than if I had worked a 40 year career in France. Would I rather be disabled or unemployed in France? Probably, but that's not exactly the HN audience.

> Would I rather be disabled or unemployed in France? Probably, but that's not exactly the HN audience.

But it's also about knowing that your friends, your family, the people who make your coffee, the people you meet in the park etc. will have a safety net to fall back on.

I do think that I'm not the only person who finds that reassuring.

re. the "I make more money", I realise as a person without kids, I have a skewed perspective but I don't find myself lacking a lot in life. I don't understand the obsession with wanting to get as rich as possible, and if society provides for a lot of things (including kids' college tuition) you may not need to save as much.

It's less the desire to be grotesquely wealthy and more than ability to work less time for the same quality of life. I've taken several 6+ month breaks between contracts now and they gave a lot of clarity and perspective to what life could be. Time is our most valuable and limited asset.

Many people in Europe, at least in the tech sector, seem to work less overall, whereas when I worked for an American company, our colleagues over there seemed to routinely work overtime, be on call without compensation etc.

I work 32h a week, I earn enough money for myself and I feel that my work-life-balance is pretty good. I think I prefer this to working really hard for 10-15 years, almost burning out and retire and do nothing.

You've begged the question a little by choosing France, a country with roughly the same cost of living as the US or Germany, but with programmer salaries more in line with smaller or eastern European countries.

It's true French programmers may be able to swing 10x in (parts of) the US, but they can find 2-5x just by moving to Germany or northern Europe.

Healthcare is complicated as mentioned, but I imagine his wife will get family health insurance. Despite all the true horror stories, the US has top notch health services if you are properly insured and have reserve funds for the inevitable "gotchas" in the system. Don't even dream of showing up without health insurance - the EU beats the US hands down in this scenario.

No comments about needing a lawyer to subscribe to a local gym, it's utter nonsense, perhaps even malicious.

Do family plans still frequently have extra charges for spouses who could get their own plan (via employer or by passing some base income level) but don't? This could cause issues if freelancing.

Different plans have different rules and I don't know Princeton's. I think that family plans won't generally require a freelancer spouse to obtain health care (my employer's excellent plan doesn't require my freelancing wife to do that), but I can't speak for every plan out there...

You also "need a lawyer" to cancel gym memberships in Western European countries. Do some minimal research yourself.

Personal context: I am American, have lived in 9 countries on 5 continents & currently live in Europe, and am the same age as the OP.

Immersing oneself within another culture is almost always worth it, but like anything valuable there are always challenges. Psychologically, the Gartner hype cycle will apply to you and your family (replace “innovation trigger” with “new culture trigger”). Given your visa situation is unknown, what’s your backup plan if you can’t work? (e.g., go back to university, learn a new language, etc.) I can’t stress enough to have a plan here. Having one partner being productive in a new culture while the other is mired in the “trough of disillusionment” for a long time is a recipe for immense family/financial strife.

A good starting point for financial questions you might ask yourself:

• Will your children go to private ($$$$) or public schools?

• Will your partner’s employer pay for tax preparation and for how long? Finding international tax people, let alone competent ones, in the USA is extremely difficult & $$$$. Do not underestimate how Byzantine/inane/amoral the US tax system is.

• How are you handling international banking & investments? (Goes with the tax part above)

• How are you handling private pension contributions? (Goes with the tax part above; *warning*: different governments may not recognize foreign pensions and instead treat them as taxable investment accounts…. Tread *very* carefully here.)

• How are public social taxes handled between DE & the USA? (e.g., US $$$ into Social Security is credited as DE €€€? Or just time credits to qualify for a DE pubic pension? Where will you retire, the USA or DE?)

• Are there any social taxes that need to still be paid in DE while you are in the USA in order to use healthcare, education, etc.? (for your return, in case your partner looses her job, kids want to go to DE university, etc.)

• How will you establish credit? Remember, you are starting with no credit history so large purchases (car, etc.) will be difficult. Especially in the USA where credit is the norm.

• Will you rent or buy a home? Can you qualify for a mortgage and if so, when?

• How can you obtain a US drivers license? (e.g., Can your DE one be instantly swapped for a NJ one? Or will you have to take a drivers test? If so, does that require you pay for drivers school? Does your new license have restrictions on car types that you can drive and for how long?)

• Is your partner’s company paying for shipping of your furniture, etc.? Or will you buy everything new? What about electronics that need to be replaced? (e.g., vacuum cleaners, kettles, etc.)

• What is the best visa for you & your partner? *warning*: Do some research or pay for independent legal counsel here. Remember that the types of visas that your partner’s company will suggest/initially sponsor may be in their best interests and not yours. Can you qualify for a visa independent of your spouse? (i.e., so that your whole family isn’t 100% dependent on your partner being at her current employer.) Are there any preferential visas available to you via DE/USA treaties? (E.g., E1/E2, etc.) This area can be really expensive to fix afterwards, so make sure you get what’s best for you.

• Is your partner’s company paying for “home visits”? (e.g., return flights to DE 2x a year, etc.) If so, for how long?

The above is just a starting point, but I’m sure the “global mobility industry” has others to be found.

Why not contract remotely from The States, keeping your client base in the EU?

All I can say is, spend a great amount of time reading and watching videos about the wonderful state of New Jersey and its natural landmark the Nee Jersey Turnpike.

Why? Berlin is much nicer :-)

You should do it.

Princeton NJ is a beautiful part of the state, and close to the university.

Not sure where you will live, but Nassau Street has a quaint charm. There's plenty to do, and you are a 90 minute train ride to Manhattan.

Don't let the comments discourage you. People are just blowing off steam from the roe v wade ruling.

Princeton is indeed beautiful. The housing stock is a little mixed -- the apartments near the university are pretty old, and there wasn't much new construction happening when I attended the university in the late 2000s, but the homes (manors, really) nearby are nice (but expensive). You will absolutely need a car. There are buses, but the routes are sparse. It is indeed possible to do a day trip to NYC, as I did many times. You will end up in Penn Station, which is awful, and midtown, which is awful, but the subways will take you where you want to go.

I overall do not miss living in Princeton, though I know a fair number of people who stayed after graduation, or moved to Princeton after living in some big cities. It's monocultural, to borrow a term some other commenters have used. It is mostly people who work in or adjacent to the university; it is mostly affluent, white people; there is some art, centered around the theater or the museum scene, but it is the art of that one culture. However, take my subjective experience of the city with a grain of salt.

Moving is hard. Moving to a new country doubly so. Make sure you have a strategy for finding friends, likely through your wife's work, or perhaps through meetups. Americans are easy to make friends with. That is, at least, one thing we have going for us, still, in these troubled times.

Freelancing for software engineers is very common. I have many friends who do it. You do not even need to file for a corporation to do it. The taxes are not much worse than being a salaried, full-time employee: as with the W-4 form, it is copying numbers off a page someone mails you.

Ageism is a real thing in the tech industry here. It is not difficult to find a job, but you will likely work with younger people, probably people in their 20s. Some companies do a good job of integrating people across the age spectrum, but some -- the ones that expect late or odd hours, especially -- do not. That is changing though! The tech industry only gets older each year.

If you do move, find a place with central air conditioning. It gets hot and humid during the summers, and only more so now, a decade later, with climate change. Check out, also, the McCarter Theater, which is beautiful. David Sedaris, one of my favorite authors, often gives a talk there each year; and the students from the university put on a pretty good revue each year as well.

Attempting a concise rebuttal to doom-forecasting about USA’s future:

Which decade since 1900 was worse than the one before it? Did the daily newspapers predict the most impactful events of the decade (positive or negative)?

I share most of your current outrage and concerns, but history shows a clear net positive trend

I was chatting with my dad about this recently. He said, “I lived through some rough decades in this country. Not ‘civil war’ rough; but pretty close. Everyone was predicting our decline. Everyone was wrong. We’ll be just fine.”

In my experience, the doom and gloom folks— both micro and macro— have almost never had their predictions play out. There are always Eeyores out there. I prefer Pooh.

I agree with your general point, but I think there’s a strong case that 1960’s > 1970’s.

America is the best country in the world economically and culturally. Most folk who spout anti-American rhetoric get their news from biased sources and have never been here any length of time. Sure it has its problems like everywhere else but this country is the greatest and I could never imagine living anywhere else. So I’d recommend trying it.

I say all that as a European.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com