This simply says "Abortion is a legislative matter - the constitution does not say that abortion must be legal until the moment of delivery".
This simply says "Abortion is a legislative matter - the constitution does not say that abortion must be legal until the moment of delivery".
Equal protection under the law would be my first pick for constitutional protection of abortion. There are very few life threatening things that the law compels men to do. Yet the law can compel a women to carry a fetus to term against her will?
But wouldn't that introduce the issue of whether or not the foetus should be entitled to equal protection (which most anti-abortion voters would suggest is a child and should be protected/have rights)? Seems odd to make it a man/woman equality issue.
For example, i have two lungs. You are in a car accident and both your lungs have failed. I could donate a lung and save your life.
Your right to live comes up against my right to control my own body. My right overrules your right. Even if I was the one who caused the accident that damaged your lungs. I can be found to have broken laws causing the accident, but I can’t be forced to donate an organ.
People do not have the right to physically attach themselves to another person, and leach blood, oxygen, nurturant etc off the other person. Period. Fetuses would not be an exception.
I feel that a person who wakes up with another person surgically attached to them by some sort of mad-scientist doctor could have surgery to have the second person removed, even if this means certain death for the second person. I don't view abortion as any different.
I could support a ban on abortion methods that directly kill the fetus, but as long as the method is primarily about severing the connection to the mother and removing it from the body, I see nothing wrong with that, even if removal means certain death for the fetus.
If people feel fetuses have human rights, I could also support laws or medical ethics requiring doctors to attempt to save the fetus after it is expelled (if the condition was such that saving them might be possible) just like they would try to save any other person.
This was upheld very recently in 2019. [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coalition_for_Men_v._...
Not to mention that when a war threatens the country you being drafted is taking the lion's share of the risk, because someone not doing it is also risky and to everyone.
Here women have to risk their lives and jail because a bunch of religious extremists and fascists have nothing better to do. There is no logical, philosophical, moral or even religious reason for it. It's tyranny for tyranny's sake. It's a demonstration of the power these people have over society.
"Unconstitutional" is never as straightforwardly defined as one would like. For example, protesting against the draft was ruled by the Holmes court as unprotected speech. Today, you can burn a flag with impunity.
> Equal protection under the law would be my first pick for constitutional protection of abortion.
While I'm supportive of the, for lack of a better term, "spirit" of Roe vs Wade, it was never premised on equal protection under the law. After all, men don't have an acknowledged right to avoid parenthood. The opinion itself only justifies abortion on a limited right to privacy and explicitly rejects the "my body, my choice" justification that it is mythologized to have:
"The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 25 S.Ct. 358, 49 L.Ed. 643 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200, 47 S.Ct. 584, 71 L.Ed. 1000 (1927) (sterilization)."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/410/113
> There are very few life threatening things that the law compels men to do.
Selective service and compelled paternity.
> Yet the law can compel a women to carry a fetus to term against her will?
The law can compel a man to support a child even if he man is not the biological father. It can compel one be vaccinated against his/her will. It can also compel sterilization if it determines that one is mentally defective.
Child support isn’t a matter of bodily autonomy.
Both of those apply to both men and women.
The law can theoretically compel everyone to be vaccinated, not just men. That’s equal protection under the law. It’s also only available in public health crises - not routine.
Again sterilization has been applied to men and women.
Selective service is maybe the only analog to forced birth, and even that has carve outs for religious and moral beliefs.
>Child support isn't a matter of bodily autonomy
A man can be ordered by a court to obtain a job to pay for the child or risk being thrown in prison for refusing to comply. Even terminating parental rights does not remove him from the obligation of paying child support. There has never been a case of compelled maternity (compulsion to mother a child) as every state, even the ones that will now be able to criminalize abortions, allow a mother to surrender her child within a period of at least 72 hours.
> The law can theoretically compel everyone to be vaccinated, not just men. That’s equal protection under the law. It’s also only available in public health crises - not routine.
Equal violation is not equal protection. Otherwise slavery would be OK as long as you could find a persuasive or compelling enough interest for it and found that it could be equally applied to men and women. That's not how rights work. They're inalienable. You either have them or you don't.
> Again sterilization has been applied to men and women.
Same as above.
> Selective service is maybe the only analog to forced birth, and even that has carve outs for religious and moral beliefs.
Carveouts and concessions only make the violation of a right palatable, not reasonable or justifiable. Several states that oppose abortions have carveouts for incest, rape, and/or threats to the health of the mother. In spite of these carveouts, I reject that states or even the federal government should have a say on what one does with one's body in the first place with "special" cases being negotiated after the fact.
> Well then we mostly agree.
What is it that you don't agree with?
https://www.history.com/topics/united-states-constitution/ma...
Funnily enough, it's literally not in their original job description. Judicial review, like so many things about the Supreme Court, is just based on precedent [1].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_...
> Weird because the courts striking down laws as unconstitutional is literally their job description.
Not really, because the question is actually "what makes something unconstitutional." Should the standard be "we nine unelecteds don't like it, and can read whatever we want into text that is actually silent on the issue"?
> Equal protection under the law would be my first pick for constitutional protection of abortion. There are very few life threatening things that the law compels men to do. Yet the law can compel a women to carry a fetus to term against her will?
That frankly doesn't make any sense. The law doesn't say that men are permitted to get abortions but women aren't, and the law clearly must be able to regulate things that one sex is incapable of doing (e.g. penetrative rape, and please don't waste time trying to argue the illustration instead of the point). Also, I believe most, if not all, anti-abortion laws apply to people other than the woman getting the abortion.
I mean that’s what every ruling is. The court exists because the text isn’t clear. No text is clear enough to handle reality. There are always exceptions, shifting definitions, changing technology. No document can be the full representative of its meaning - a system of rules based on documents will always have a layer of interpretation built on top of it
> I mean that’s what every ruling is.
No, it clearly isn't. If it was, you might as well abolish the other branches of government, because the government is really an oligarchy of judges.
> The court exists because the text isn’t clear. No text is clear enough to handle reality. There are always exceptions, shifting definitions, changing technology. No document can be the full representative of its meaning - a system of rules based on documents will always have a layer of interpretation built on top of it
That's true, but only to a point. Take it too far, and you are just using an oligarchy of judges to bypass the legislative process.
The law also compels men to carry fetus's to term against their will, should they happen to become pregnant somehow.
Just because men can't get pregnant doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply to them.
Yes it does.
I don't think it's the court's job to equal the playing field on biology.
But since you put it like that, wouldn't that mean the father also has the right to decide for or against the abortion of his child?
which is also why 2nd amendment is relevant. if the people responsible for the creation of laws is sufficiently corrupted, then the public have the right to form a militia and replace them. Which you cannot do if those same corrupted people are the ones deciding who is allowed to have guns or not.
The Supreme Court has taken on relevance because Congress is worthless. When no laws can be passed, courts act as clever compilers to keep society working despite the source code being ancient. The programmers of the law have not updated it to match the reality on the ground nor the features users want. This is a far better outcome than an uprising against the government, but it will only work for so long. Ultimately Congress needs to become functional again, which will require compromise and pork barrel trading.
>Ultimately Congress needs to become functional again
Yes exactly. I keep seeing rhetoric that we "lost 50 years of progress". we didnt. We band-aided our government and had 50 years to make the proper correction and havent been able to yet. More importantly, though, I dont think we have really tried to
the group that was keeping that band-aid on is now out of power and we want to blame the other side for simply upholding separation of powers. I mean, it is tone deaf to do it now at best, but Mississippi pushed the issue. the court is obligated to uphold the law, not dictate it. Abortion as a privacy right has always been a weak stance.
Anecdotally, I have felt a growing disinterest in local politics growing for the past decade. I can name so many people who "didnt want to talk politics" 2 weeks ago who are now non-stop politically charged over roe v wade. I could roll my eyes about it all, but honestly I just hope it serves as enough of a wake up call for people to stay involved.