Hacker News Reader

Comment by mattw2121 | Hacker News Reader

"As a remote organization, Test Double is constantly revisiting employee connectivity and providing new ways for our folks to spend time together and with leadership in order to build relationships and alignment across the company."

Not sure if what I'm about to say applies to Test Double, but I have interviewed for several remote positions recently and all of them have said I would be required to attend team building events in a city half way across the country from me. This is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather go into the office, locally, 3-5 days a week than to have a company require me to attend some silly team building event for a week where they expect to own my time 18 hours a day.

If a company is going say it is remote work, then be remote and don't try to force these bizarre team building activities on everyone.

View on HN

My fully remote company has done a handful of hack trips where we live and work together in a fun destination city for a week. They have all been optional so far. Everyone who has chosen to attend has reported feeling more connected to their team, more willing to ask questions (less fear of looking dumb), and generally happier in their role in the company. We intend to continue doing these once or twice yearly, assuming we have the financials to make it happen.

Zoom has created a lack of communication not more. It's like arguing over the phone, but now with 10x the people. In person you can simply communicate much better.

Any meeting in person or otherwise with 10s of people is normally a waste of time if any collaboration is expected. Not sure why we would think any different with Zoom.

I think it's hard to argue that interrupting or finding a space to talk isn't easier in person, with the benefit of body language, than over Zoom et al.

Does zoom not have a hands up mechanic like google meets? Haven’t used it in over a year and can’t remember the UI

It does, but it's awkward in practice and falls into the same UX trap -- any advanced feature requires training & consensus on its use, and nobody has time or inclination to train on meeting software.

There are obvious bias sample issues with the survey group, but as long as the company provides the costs for travel, etc, and it moves around to try to distribute the travel hassle, it can work well enough.

Industry conferences can also provide a useful target (meet before the conference, go to the conference, etc).

Sounds super parent friendly.

It’s far easier for me to arrange a week away from home every few months than go to an office every day - if I were to do an 9-5 that would mean not being able to take kids to school or pick them up, ever.

I still don't see why your company should steal two or three weeks of your family time away.

You can see it as a perk, but I see this as a theft.

And someone else might see 10-20 hours commuting and 40+ hours in an office every week as "theft." Take the job you want and can get which has expectations you can live with. There were a lot of jobs at least in pre-pandemic times which required quite a bit of travel or even near 100% during the week (consultants).

It might be easier to arrange, but I don't want to leave my kids for weeks at a time. Young children change every day. I've been away from my daughter for a few days and have already missed out of some of her development.

What some great companies have done is addressed this with their offsites, either by making the offsite family friendly and paying people to bring their entire family (destination vacation on us!) or paying for childcare while the working parent is at the offsite.

That's what our company does and it's an incredible perk. All expense paid trips with planned events and child care. Even pets are welcome.

We have several new parents at the company. For our last event, two attended and one did not. I think it depends on individual preference and spousal support.

However, please note that we have unlimited PTO (not a scam - I have not turned down a single PTO request in the last two years) and strongly recommend at least 1 month paid paternity/maternity leave.

As a candidate for a remote role, who hates to travel, this is off putting to me and I would not accept a role at your company. While it is "optional", I know how office politics work and, when you choose not to do the "optional" things, someone is thinking you aren't a team player.

I don't mind full remote -- if it's full remote. I also don't mind going in the local office (for the reasons you mentioned people like your company trip -- I feel more connected and communication walls are broken down).

I would probably never assume I would never have to (or at least be pressured to) travel at a remote company. Maybe there are examples. But being that person who refuses to ever travel would be, as you say, disadvantageous over time. Heck, for a lot of roles, some amount of routine travel is pretty much expected at most companies, especially as you become more senior.

I can confidently state that nobody who chose not to attend the last one was punished or ostracized in any overt way. But nobody can help the fact that if some people meet up and feel more connected, then those who choose not to meet up will feel (relatively speaking) less connected.

This is one of those situations where there's no obvious perfect answer. If we didn't do regular meetups, then we'd lose out on the benefits for those who like them. If we do, we lose out on the talent that fears them.

Trying to get together physically now and then is really a big benefit. People on this thread are belittling them by calling them "team building" but it really is a good setting to get to know people informally, exchange information in a way that isn't half paying attention on a video call, etc.

You can make them optional I guess but the outliers who don't want to go will often end up dropping off of others' radar screens over time. Personally if periodic offsites (or for that matter attending certain other types of events to, say, give a presentation) really aren't your thing, you should probably find a company that better matches your preferences.

I have the opposite opinion.

I work for a 100% remote company that does two team building events per year. The first is a fiscal year kick-off event that the entire company attends, the other is a set of 3 regional events (US West Coast, US East Coast, and Europe), of which you will attend one.

I've only been at the company for a year, and I've only been at one event, but it was amazing. We had our fiscal year kick-off in Chamonix, France. In August, the US West Coast event will be in Lake Tahoe.

I really like these events. I really think meeting my co-workers in person strengthens relationships. It's nice to be able to meet the actual people behind the screen.

> than to have a company require me to attend some silly team building event for a week where they expect to own my time 18 hours a day.

Is it like an annual thing? A monthly thing?

It depends on the team building event. Some could be awesome. There are team-building events I would be thrilled to go on and others I would dread. Hell, there are some where I would ask if guests are allowed.

I have a family and I have friends. If I want to do something awesome, I'll do it with them :). Just let me work with co-workers and let's not try and force me into friendships. These work outings are like the play date for kids -- it's more about the parents (leadership) than the kids (team).

I have family and friends. And I do things with them.

I don't have the money to just party with them 24/7. And I'd rather go on a teambuilding exercise than write code. And that's the choice for the week.

Also, frankly, I enjoy shifting which groups I socialize with.

It’s entirely a lifestyle choice to treat work like that, and one I constantly consider. However as a manager who gets to hear what other managers are thinking away from their employees, you are going to end up being treated like a piece of machinery.

There are some bad bosses who might do this on purpose because they feel snubbed, but even good ones who are looking out for you will eventually succumb to this. There is only so much time in the day and the human brain likes to save energy by not thinking about things that come up much. If you try to cut out all socializing with other humans at the job and just do the work, they’re gonna stop even remembering that you’re on the payroll.

This can be positive? I’ve seen a few engineers get a niche skill(frequently in some esoteric home grown software) and just work away at that for 40 years till retirement. I’ve also seen some of those same engineers cut because new management came in and wasn’t given the run down on how important they were because the old management forgot they existed.

You misunderstand me. I'm not cutting out socializing at the job. I manage a large team and never schedule anything outside of working hours for the team. We can socialize, joke around, and make small talk all day long. But once it's quitting time I have other (and to me higher) priorities.

On some occasions, someone from work has transitioned from a coworker to a friend. That was a natural transition and not something that I needed team building events that compromise my personal time to achieve.

I don't have an aversion to socializing at work. I have an aversion to work trying to steal my personal time.

Ah, I did misunderstand then. I’m onboard with what you mean now and do something similar.

I do allow for trips at my remote job but only when they are to an area I already wanted to go, and I can bring my spouse along so we basically get a free mini vacation on the evenings. I usually also pair that with staying the weekend before or after as my jobs so far haven’t cared about scheduling a return flight on a different day

I don’t have but three people who I consider “friends” at work. I also work remotely. But it does make working together a lot easier when you have actually met the people you are working with at least once whether it be clients or coworkers.

There are also times where it just makes sense to all get in one room together and get things done. It’s especially helpful during project kickoffs and design sessions.

Luckily, my company has a very liberal travel policy where my team members can choose one of our offices anywhere in the country and meet up. We just have to be “frugal”. (Guess where I work?)

This is the strange anti-pattern I've seen. If someone is looking to work remote traveling across the world is an extreme negative for many.

I want to be remote full time, but also want 2x (max) destination trips to build face time and bs.

I know a lot of people who would rather work remote - but are willing to go into the office just to spend time around other people. They would be 100% on board with this.

I personally prefer an office (if it's close) for the distinction between work and home, but I'm also fine working from home. That said, a biannual reason to spend time with coworkers sounds great.

And, if teambuilding is like a second-tier vacation where I don't have to pay for stuff or use vacation time, that's even better.

I'm not against going into the office because I hate being outside my home. I just hate commuting.

I have no problem either remote with travel. They pay all expenses and I rack up hotel points/airline miles.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com