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Comment by FreqSep | Hacker News Reader

And Juuls additionally are not “smoking” - it operates at a much lower temperature than combustion in a typical cigarette.

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After around (some number of) people died from vaping Vitamin A Acetate, I don't think we should really make a distinction anymore.

(I originally said 1k, which appears to have been misremembering.)

As a slightly tangential counterargument, forcing vapes off the legal market means less regulation around ingredients.

It's an interesting argument and something I struggle with. I don't generally support prohibition. I do think Juul (along with all tobacco and liquor companies) is monetizing suffering in a way that's unacceptable. I don't think making them illegal is the answer. But there is no amount of regulation which will stop these companies from doing harm, nor any that will be particularly effective at containing it, since their mission is to harm.

Those were cannabis cartridges. This is the exact misinformation that gets vapes banned unfortunately.

Vitamin A is far too thick to vape in a Juul type pod system. The only use it has is as a thickener for concentrates which use a whole different type of wicking system.

If the Vitamin A Acetate were in a Juul pod, you'd be just as dead. I'm not particularly interested in the mechanics of Juul pods that stop this particular chemical from being used - it probably isn't going to be the only chemical we thought was safe and turns out to be deadly in this new context. Vaping is, in fact, dangerous, and framing it as distinct and safer is, in my view, the misinformation.

Juuls use a silica wick which, while possible to absorb something as thick as Vit A the vaporization process would happen too quickly for the pod to perform properly. You'd have to wait 10+ minutes between puffs and the vapor production would suffer greatly. You would immediately know something was wrong.

Concentrate cartridges use a ceramic stone with a heating element inside or encased. This ceramic greatly reduces the flow rate and allows slower vaporization of the concentrate.

I ran a vape shop for years I am more than happy to discuss safety of vaping but won't participate in whataboutism.

Having given the matter more thought, I do believe I spoke out of turn.

What if you let me choose the risks I take? I'm not hurting you by doing so (no matter if you agree, disagree or if, like most moral crusaders, you are literally unable to comprehend someone making choices different than your own), so what's the problem?

> Vaping is, in fact, dangerous, and framing it as distinct and safer is, in my view, the misinformation.

But how can you convince others of this view if you're "not particularly interested" in the relevant facts?

yeah, and we should ban cars because a bunch of people drowned while boating. Vehicle deaths are vehicle deaths after all.

where on earth did you get 1k from? it was a few dozen people:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+died+from+va...

also, vitamin e acetate was used to cut black/grey market cannabis vape products, not nicotine. nic juice is so cheap to produce that there's no reason to cut, vitamin e acetate is probably more expensive.

i quit an 8 year smoking habit the first day i purchased a vape. it's depressing and frustrating to see this option removed for others.

Chiming in as another person who switched entirely from smoking ~1 pack per day for 10ish years to juul. I never intended to quit nicotine, but e-cigarettes got me off combustion and I consider that a good thing.

1000 deaths (which briefly googling suggests is less than the number that die from lighting strikes annually), is in no way comparable to the nearly half a million from cigarette related health issues[0].

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal...)

To be clear that was a black-market additive in unregulated cannabis vape cartridges, nothing to do with nicotine vapes and definitely not relevant to a company as regulated as Juul.

This would be like saying Coors Light is dangerous because your cousin's moonshine had methanol in it.

It's even less-related than that. At least Coors Light and moonshine are both intended to be an ethanol beverage. It's more like saying scuba tanks are dangerous because some black-market BB gun CO2 cartridges were poisonous to inhale.

Here is a link to the CDC where they mention 68 confirmed deaths and strongly link it to black market marijuana cartridges, not nicotine.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/s...

> National and state data from patient reports and product sample testing show tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)-containing e-cigarette, or vaping, products, particularly from informal sources like friends, family, or in-person or online dealers, are linked to most EVALI cases and play a major role in the outbreak.

What does people dying from poisonous additives have anything to do with making a distinction between two different things? People also die in car accidents, but we maintain a distinction between car accidents and smoking.

Incidentally, smoking has been a pretty significant cause of car accidents. People drop them while driving and panic.

I think it would be wise to retain the pretty significant distinction that those people (really sadly) died from vaping Vitamin A Acetate. But it's kind of like talking about moonshine deaths in a discussion about how non-alcoholic beers might still make your tummy hurt.

I think there is nobody in this comments section who would disagree with banning the use of Vitamin A Acetate as an additive to vape products, and also nobody who wouldn't want those responsible for the deaths to be held accountable.

Inhaling gasoline is also bad for you. So is freon. Asbestos? Really bad for you.

None of those are in a Juul cartridge. Vitamin A Acetate is also not in a Juul cartridge.

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