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Comment by detritus | Hacker News Reader

Within a second of seeing the 'improved' ones I spot what is, to my mind at least, an immediate failure - the detail resolution is far too small. It doesn't account for the printing limitations on small fabric tags, never mind the ability of old fogeys such as myself to be able to squint that hard and actually read them.

I have no idea even looking on my screen here what the difference between the first three is supposed to be, and the numerals in the three thereafter are only legible because I'm staring at a bright screen, not swearing into the void in my laundry room, trying to find a better light.

All that aside, I feel I'd still have to look their new interpretations up. International visual vernacular .. doesn't really exist.

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I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive.

Laundry is literally filled with things to know, outside of these symbols. Household tasks are.

I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Yet people have done that in the wash, so why not start there?

Here's what each sane person should do, who actually takes time to look at tags. (after all if you couldn't care less, and never look at tags, what's the point?)

Print a copy of the extended tag list out, and hang it in the laundry room at home. I have a cabinet where I keep extra detergent, etc, so I taped it up on the inside of the door.

Problem sovled.

For a laundrymat, for your smartphone, download a properly formatted, for easy phone viewing version.

Done.

Non-problem, compared to expecting the entire planet to change. We don't need another standard!!

All that would happen is I'd have two standards to look at.

The tags aren't that hard to remember, either. Do not bleach is the only one that you have to think, oh right the triangle is a bottle of bleach. The circle in a square is describing spin cycle. The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. The iron is describing an iron. The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron.

I remember this in spite of not having done laundry in 5 years. And you're exactly right. New symbols mean little to me, I would still need to look them up and then there would be twice as many bad symbols.

This redesign article is an example of why you should avoid UI/UX people who can only design. They'll change your branding everytime they get bored and create more headache than they solve.

> The circle with no square is describing drying without heat.

That's the square with no circle, the circle with no square is very different.

> The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron.

Just to highlight how non-universal these symbol are, I have never had an iron that has three levels of heat or that represents the levels with dots.

It's not "only three levels". All my irons have had "continuous" "level" knob, with three "presets", represented as dots. Along with other "presets" for different kinds of things to iron. But maybe that's Euro thing.

Funny thing, those two do not match. For example, on my current iron "Cotton" is marked at three-dots, whereas all my cotton clothes have labels that insist on ironing them on two-dots.

Perhaps the symbols should simply be printed on the detergent packaging together with an explanation.

In what language(s)? Then you run out of room on the packaging/waste paper. The point of symbols is that they can tell more information in a smaller space and can be recognized universally.

Maybe you gotta look them up on your own, but after a while, you learn the ones you need to.

Uh, how about in the primary language(s) used in the market where the detergent is sold? The other text on the bottle is already localized.

Bleach and vinegar are both acidic, it's acids and bases (like ammonia. Main ingredient in Windex) that should not be mixed due to the potentially toxic gases they will produce.

So very wrong. Bleach is pH 12 or so.

(Chlorine) bleach mixed with ammonia (which is a base) or any acid, including vinegar, will release the chemical weapon chlorine gas.

Bleach's pH is above 7 therefore it is alkaline not acidic

> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die.

You sure about that?

Well, I can’t speak to your tolerance for chlorine gas, but…

Or were you saying that the bleach bottles on your shelf state that one should not mix bleach with acids such as vinegar? I’d actually have to go look at mine, but I don’t recall a mention.

So I looked: the warning is in the middle of a wall of text, with print so small only pedantic geeks with good, young eyes are going to bother. Let alone be able to read it, anyone over 40 will need a magnifier.

I was referring to the statement that the bottles don't contain a warning, not about the chemical reaction that obviously exists.

It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners". If it only said vinegar, then someone would mix it with ammonia and when they died, they'd claim "it only said vinegar!"

It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners"

Without going back and straining my eyes, I don't think it even goes that far. Just do not mix with acids, and it specifically called out "urine and feces", from which I guess we're supposed to surmise that it is not a toilet cleaner? It's a difficult problem, yes, because "but it didn't say not to..."

But again, I'm pretty sure the solution does not lie in a wall of 6 pt. text., regardless of what it needs to say.

> I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive.

I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it.

I've started turning gardening and landscaping into a bit of a hobby with my new house. I'm constantly looking up specifics on plants, how to prune, and etc. It is so much easier than when I last had a house. The workflow no longer requires amassed knowledge, books, or keeping every tag that came with every plant.

It's now:

Take a photo of plant Use app to identify Get all the info you need

> I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it.

What do you think the problem (one of them) with the Information Age is? The affordance of lookup makes it so that we have to look up more and more. And then we have to arrange more and more information in order to make the frequently-needed information convenient enough to look up.

I think it's very generational. I'm Gen-X but I cut my teeth on BBS's and IRC. I've been connected and looked forward to being more connected since the early 90's.

Part of my generation and most of the previous generations IMO have never fully embraced a connected world. Just watching how much quarantine crushed some people and how some of us doubled down on online lives that were already fulfilling (discord, watch parties and online interaction). I've always felt judged by my older friends / folks my age about how I live my life. (I met my wife in an MMO a decade ago and we moved across the country to be together.)

When forced to go online, the generation that rejected online have an allergic reaction. I can't even count the number of times I have been texted or called for something personally or professionally that could be found in a 5 minute search by people who reject the idea of even searching first.

Long story short, I think it will literally die out.

That’s not ‘problem solved’. That’s an ‘acceptable workaround’.

The problem is ultimately that the symbols are so abstract that nobody remembers them.

I would highly recommend reading some UX classics such as:

- The Inmate Are Running The Asylum by Alan Cooper

- The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman

(and I'm sure there are many more good resources that are recent than that.)

It's very easy as tech-savvy people like us to underestimate how hard technology, even conventions like laundry symbols, are. I personally have printed out a legend explaining the laundry symbols and put them near to my washing machine, but I'm the only person I know who does that. Everyone else guesses or struggles to use laundry symbols correctly, or reads the text in English if it is provided.

Now, does that mean we should change all the laundry symbols just because one person shared a redesign on their blog? No. Changing something that is so well-established has significant downsides and risks. But I think it's perfectly legitimate to spot their difficulties, and to pursue better UX relentlessly, with testing with real users. That's what separates a good (UX) designer from an engineer who produces something that fits their mindset but not the mindset of actual users.

They aren't well-known, at least according to the article.

I myself recognize that I've seen a few of them, but since they are as cryptic as Egyptian hieroglyphs to me, I ignore them.

They aren't well known, but they're an international standard. Getting everyone to switch to a new system will take a huge effort. As others said above, there are just so many symbols that I dare to claim it is impossible to come up with a symbol set that is self explanatory, or easy to memorize. As soon as you're in doubt about any symbol, you'd have to look it up, and then it doesn't matter whether you need to look up one or three.

I only know the one for temperature, the "no dryer" one, "wash by hand" and "no spin-dry". But like you, I don't give a shit. I wash everything at 60 (underwear, bed sheets, towels) or 40 (everything else) °C with spin-dry at 1400rpm.[*] Some pieces might wear faster, but so be it. I guess the vast majority of people does it that way.

[*] Ok ok, except wool or cashmere, or a suit. But this is something I just learned from my mom at young age, not by researching any symbols.

There are warnings on my bleach bottles saying not to mix with things. But that didn't stop my wife from doing it once. Generally people don't RTFM even if you put it on the bottle in big red letters.

edit: Just to be clear, though, I agree with you - people should educate themselves and the fact that people won't make a point of educating themselves is the problem. I've had multiple experiences where I paused to look up if it was safe to mix medications that were being given to my kids, or if it was safe to use a human first aid ointment on a pet. Sometimes the answer is 'No!' but the general reaction is usually "Oh I wouldn't worry about it".

Are people seeing some huge benefits from paying attention to these symbols? I've been, as the kids say, "adulting" for some time, and pay no attention to them. I couldn't draw a single one from memory. If you showed me one, I'd only be able to guess at the meaning. All I do is not wash stuff that says "dry clean only" (it always just says it in text, I have no idea if there even is a symbol for that) and favor cooler water & cooler dry cycles. I air-dry anything wool (if it's not in the "dry clean only" category).

Color-safe detergents have been the norm since my very early adulthood. I remember ads for it when I was a kid but by the time I was buying detergent, most detergent was color safe. I've never even bothered to sort by color, aside from keeping raw denim away from everything else (on the rare occasions it's washed at all).

What am I missing out on? My family's clothes seem to last just fine. My wife pays even less attention to this stuff than I do, and everything seems OK.

This has been one of my favorite Dilbert cartoons for a while: https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-12-27 It's been my wife & I's philosophy on clothes for a while and it's been working out. I'm sure it's suboptimal and I'm sure I don't care.

It works fine (90% of the time) until it doesn't

And yes, I do pay attention (to the special cases). T-shirt? It's a t-shirt.

Winter coat? Fancy suit? See what it says. Or send it to be professionally cleaned.

Where it usually fails (with everyday stuff) is that people DNGAF and dry their clothes at 90C then come to heavily shrunk garments. Or with faded colors.

Yeah, I can summarize my laundry habits as follows:

- Dry clean formal clothes

- Air dry wool

- If I'm going through a raw denim phase, keep it out of the regular laundry

- Everything else goes in the washer set on permanent press and then in the dryer at medium heat

Never in 17 years of doing my own laundry has this system failed me in any way.

Many clothes are not supposed to be put through the dryer. Just dry them naturally unless it perennially rains where you live. I’ve stopped doing that since a long time ago and they now last much longer.

Almost all my pants became too small from washing. Perhaps they would not have when I paid attention to the symbols (or perhaps I became fat?)

or maybe you should just cold wash

I was just having this discussion with my wife. I was under the impression that using the dryer to dry clothes is what causes items to shrink. Does the water temperature in the wash make a difference too if you hang dry?

Depends. But yes hot washing shrinks some materials.

https://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-hi...

They both cause it to shrink.

Wash on cold and hang dry is best if possible.

I can draw one from memory. It was a triangle. Not sure what it means … but I can draw it.

> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die.

Have you looked? Mine says “STRONG OXIDIZING AGENT: Mix only with water. Mixing this product with chemicals […] may release hazardous gases”

The vinegar, meanwhile, proudly says it is organic and "100% chemical-free" (yes yes, I know): https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/quezons-best-organic-spic...

Let's say that you have a set of symbols and 30% of the people who view them are able to derive their meaning without research. Why not try to increase that number? What's the downsides excluding the time making the new symbols.

Another downside would be people who know the existing symbols having to learn the new ones.

Not if the symbols are intuitive. Remember I'm saying that in a population you are increasing the percentage that can derive the meaning of the symbols without research. That includes those that already knew the previous symbols, so it doesn't matter

30% to 50% regardless of who was what type in the past set. It's like if you changed the floppy disk icon in MS Word to a text box that read "SAVE".

Right, which means people who don’t speak English would be at a disadvantage even if they recognize the universal “save” icon that’s been used for 30 years.

I came here to make the same point you did. The originals are superior, largely because their open design will remain legible after significant deterioration. The slight increase in obviousness of the redesign is not worth the loss in legibility. I still don’t know what most of the new symbols are supposed to mean.

Also, I missed a link to a legend for the original design, for which the author’s animated version does not compensate.

Also some are equally confusing as the originals.

There isnt much point in making a competing standard as we already know what happens (more confusion, more fractured knowledge, etc.)

Instead, just print a laundry chart and leave it with the washer.

As for whitegoods manufacturers: they could, as a minimum, describe their various wash and dry settings using the appropriate symbols rather than marketing terms.

Yeah, also the mercury thermometer sideways?! It's counter-intuitive. That said, the new symbolism slightly improves upon the old one which is not intuitive at all. You have to learn what they mean and then they're fine. They're just not intuitive.

The water temp in the old one is expressed much more clearly than the new one.

The most significant improvement is the bleach/no bleach symbol. The rest either don't improve much or actually make things less legible.

Also, sidenote the "drying" symbol looks a bit like the hotsprings/onsen symbol --the official symbol is a little diff as it has an oval, but on roadsigns they drop the oval sometimes so it looks very similar (see U+2668)

So I wear reading glasses and I’m with you the first 9 “improved” icons are indistinguishable to me at a glance. In particular the older ones with 20/30/50 are instantly readable where the new ones are not.

The iconography is updated which is nice but the line weights are too thick.

line weights are too thick.

Way too thick, overlapping and thats why probably impossible to print on most textile labal printers. I also find most of the labels looking the same - similar to when Google redesigned their icons and not everyone liked it.

https://9to5google.com/2020/10/06/gmail-logo-workspace-redes...

I think they are a lot more intuitive than the old ones, but I'd need to look up some stuff. I don't know what's the difference between normal, perm press and delicate for example. Or why the 3 knobs on the washing machine should represent it

The flask for bleach, and the drying symbols are much clearer though.

The detail in some is a bit too high for some clothing tags, I'd agree on that.

Speaking of bleach though - when was the last time anyone here used bleach while washing clothes? I have never in my entire life done so.

Maybe not regularly, as bleach is quite damaging to fabric and others, but often enough to have a bottle of bleach available in laundry room

Ok, just to clarify, do people say "bleach" when the mean products containing sodium percarbonate (like Vanish, OxiClean)? Or do you mean actual bleach (as in sodium hypochlorite)?

Actual bleach. I typically use oxi-clean, very rarely use bleach. I've found that even the most severe staining/yellowing can be removed by soaking the clothes in the washer overnight with oxi-clean (something that's not really possible with front loader machines).

Well, I mostly use things like Vanish/OxiClean, but there are times when I hit proper bleach - but admittedly that one is rare enough (especially since switching to coloured bedsheets) that I do not keep bottle of sodium hypochlorite on hand.

I use it frequently.

I use it all the time. In fact I was staying at an airbnb recently and my hair dye stained all his towels and pillow cases (a week after I got it done!) so I gave them a good bleaching before I left and left them sparkling white.

> Within a second of seeing the 'improved' ones I spot what is, to my mind at least, an immediate failure - the detail resolution is far too small.

Indeed, especially given the current nonsense is commonly unreadable already after just a wash or two (if not before you've washed the garment).

UX designers everywhere: "this doesn't look like sex on my retina pro"

I don't think they did real world testing on the "improved" ones. I'd say it's obvious the number thirty could use a degree sign after it, but making it smaller and putting a box around it instead of in water, makes zero sense to me.

The failure of this UI/UX "expert" to grasp this most basic common sense detail is why modern websites and applications are generally speaking top-heavy UI/UX disasters.

Over the last 15 years or so I think we've taken a few giant steps backwards as we let freewheeling artists take over. Yet go back to the early 80s and look at the original Macintosh UI which was designed by an artist - Susan Kare - with complete elegance and simplicity. What has happened? Just because computers have increased in speed doesn't mean the complexity of the artwork must increase proportionally - often at the expense of usability.

This sounds overly negative and exaggerated. Adding quotation marks around the expert seems excessive, as this is surely the author’s profession no matter you agree with his idea or not. If you compare design nowadays and say the geocity days it’s a huge leap. And for every Macintosh UI there were most likely countless unintelligible designs that nobody remembers 40 years later.

That, and the line-dry one looks like a turd with stink lines.

I know a few of the symbols, mostly to check if I can actually stick the clothes I'm buying in a washing machine or if they are effectively a single use item (for me). After checking I can wash them, the most important value after that would be the temperature, which is no longer readable. I say that, but I stick everything at 30 anyway... (Alright, some things I know are safe to wash at 60deg, like bathroom towels, so they get the extra heat)

Those labels are printed too small for all intended audiences.

I propose a Moore's law of a label printing density doubling every 18 months (years?).

They are way more recognizable. When I looked at the example label at the end I immediately knew what all those new symbols meant. I still didn’t know what the original ones meant on the left.

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