Bolt has a cool web interface and they really don't want you to use it
toot.kuba-orlik.name
toot.kuba-orlik.name
The reasoning behind it is that you should take real estate on the user's home screen at all costs, because your app's icon will serve as a reminder and people will allegedly come back to it and open more often.
But what matters at the end of the day is the product and the value it brings to the users. I'd argue that deceiving the users to provide real estate for your app does not help your business in the long term. If you get more installs today by coercing them (like Reddit does, for example) you will most definitely see some other metric such as retention decline over time.
Broadly, users - us that is - are not idiots. Deception works momentarily and can have an immediate effect on some metrics. Long term though, every user and no matter how smart or dumb, will eventually assess the value it gets them against the money, against their time, or against the "home screen real estate" they provided.
Speaking from my own experience with multiple mobile apps: there are many ways you can trick the users but you can't trick the longer terms statistics.
... So thanks for keeping my periods of distraction very short! Maybe they just care about their users' mental health and are sacrificing their engagement for it :)
(old.reddit.com still does give reddit data, and from my experience Reddit does a lot of tracking IPs + working with google + traffic correlation to figure out what stuff you browse. However if you still prefer old reddit, libredirect does provide an option to automatically redirect to old.reddit.com instead of libreddit or teddit)
That's what https://old.reddit.com is for. Simply prepending "old." to the reddit link makes everything work better.
Works on mobile and desktop, just as it always had.
And no fuck-you banners.
I think there are provable cases where an app almost certainly leads to less retention than more and something like Reddit, whose value lies in allowing you to explore the internet is almost certainly one of them.
also, beware of reddit URLs bouncing through out.reddit.com — which tracks all link clicks on reddit across mobile and desktop (profiling interests), regardless of login state
I think smartphones would be much less popular if people understood why corporations love "apps" so much. It's nothing like the older PC world full of software more or less for its own sake.
Do people not turn these off? When I get an unwanted notification, I immediately withdraw permissions to send notifications, or even uninstall the app
That's it. That's the whole story. Mobile apps provide more opportunity to spy on the user.
it’s a vpn profile that just intercepts dns requests locally and screens with a hosts file
1/ New UI, forcing people on to old.reddit.com 2/ Mobile pushes HARD for their app, which is pretty buggy on Android from what I can tell 3/ old.reddit.com now shows "other links" midway down the page! Absolutely useless. 4/ old.reddit.com now forces "show more comments"
This is why people left digg to go to reddit. :-)
All I want is the old reddit interface in the middle, feel free to place ads on the right. I even went reddit gold or whatever it was called for a while. I really miss the old reddit UI, there is so much good tech information on reddit for random things, that it's a shame.
My phone can't even work all that well with apps like that or Chrome browser/WebView for that matter. I use Opera on my phone because they allow me to have 50-100 tabs open with no issues, but maybe that's only passable because I never do anything important like banking on the phone anyways.
So, whenever I'm coerced into installing an app for actually browsing content, reading comments, looking at media (vs something more one-off like ordering food/a ride), I just look the other way. Ergo, I never use Reddit on my phone without spoofing the user agent or whatever the "request desktop site" option in Opera does, but then the UI becomes unusable on a phone.
Sadly, cases like mine don't show up in any metrics, nor do people care about that use case, so it's likely that this will keep being done a lot.
Sorry but this just isn't true. They want the app for the tracking, push notifications, etc. Apollo doesn't have the tracking and does it's own push notifications (so you don't get Reddit's marketing-type notifications). Also it's much harder, if not impossible, to block ads in an app vs the web. Apollo has zero ads, they absolutely don't want you using it, even the web is better for Reddit. It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do. There are multiple things (stats, polls, certain profile features) that they don't expose through their API.
> It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do.
When that happens I imagine I’ll fall off of Reddit. “old.reddit.com” and Apollo are the only reasons it’s bearable to use other than a Google search destination.
There is and will be for years if not decades a ton of important/useful information on reddit. Things like cooking tips, home server building, relatively unbiased product reviews, video game help, and the list goes on. A good portion of that content is evergreen. But as for participating, I won’t go back to the official app after using Apollo, even if that means leaving Reddit after over a decade.
If only more companies followed that principle and just left the bloody interfaces alone unless that had a very good reason.
I found a good trick was to use AN app, just not their app. Apollo on iOS and Boost on android are really good alternatives to the official Reddit app, which is littered with ads.
At my previous job our app had much higher retention than our web product, despite the web product being much more mature, modern, and feature rich. We verified this across multiple marketing channels, and looked at long term user retention over years.
We certainly did encourage users acquired on the web to download the app, and the fact that those who did were retained longer could have been a selection effect, but I don't think this accounts for users who never saw the other platform.
It's not just real estate on the screen, it's faster on-device processing with lower latency, rich offline abilities, better and more persistent access to more API's from notifications to storage, stronger identity with durable logins, and of course better analytics tracking.
It's not always the correct choice but native apps are the overall winner for mobile UX.
The problem with data is that you can't see the things that are real but not in the data.
More often then not, the front end devs responsible for the app are not very good with "normal" web frontends - so they sabotage the competition, to reduce work. Also, web pages, could be repackaged into Apps by others leeching from the products attention.
Sabotage feels pointless given you're still competing against other native apps. Also I don't even know how you would 'sabotage' the competition, your average app engineer doesn't moonlight as a blackhat hacker.
It'd be understandable if the smartphone apps came first and the developers decided a web app wasn't worth it, but a lot of these smartphone-app-only developers use PhoneGap and other tools wherein one already has to write a web app.
People generally gravitate towards the path of least resistance, which is something you already see companies exploiting with things like unfavorable privacy settings defaults. Having an app is another instance of that. There is much less mental friction in pushing a button on a home screen compared to opening a browser, punching in a URL, possibly having to log in, etc.
Given that this is rideshare, this is important, because the services offered by other companies are effectively identical. If someone has Uber installed, they would be much more likely to go the path of least resistance — using the installed app — as opposed to going out of their way to use an equivalent offering.
Additionally, there are problems in mapping that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to solve in a browser. For example: localization (precise positioning) would be incredibly difficult without a native library, you wouldn’t be able to do any offline re-routing, like gmaps does, among other limitations.
I own a platform with native apps + web, and I can confirm that retention on mobile apps is better, by the numbers. I'm not comparable to Bolt though, neither in the business model or the number of users.
This doesn't apply to Bolt nor any of their competitors. They all work off VC money subsidizing rides and once the VC money dries up users will flock to the next competitor that's being VC-subsidized. This will happen much quicker than the users wisen up to the abuse.
Long term hardly matters for most these days, they're optimizing for $ and promotions as mercenaries. That metric bump will get the PM promoted where they'll jump ship to the next company and juice the app metrics the same.
I'm guessing it has to do with mobile users being more lucrative?
If they didnt have such a crappy web experience, I would probably just use the native web page and see some ads.
So its actually driving people away to alternatives that reduces their revenue. Crazy...
====
Dear Reddit,
What a coincidence. You've stopped allowing third-party apps to have access to your API, and I've stopped visiting your site.
Sincerely,
A Former User
Reddit will turn into a bad TikTok clone and probably die off to the real TikTok if too many people like us leave
I'm pretty sure they made the math, and that's the reason old-reddit and the API are still alive despite the many threats and deadlines they published for taking them out.
In fact, I would not be surprised if most deep content come from those (despite most users not even knowing about them), because the new interface and the app are both extremely focused on shallow stuff.
It is, however, true that they've been slowly adding features that can't be accessed via an API, so I think the more likely scenario is that they'll just try to make third-party apps artificially less competitive, betting that it might add up long term.
Like, I get that you don't update it anymore, and I don't need (or want) you to, but the new version is insanely slow on my computer, so just let me use whatever I want please.
Reading the comments on a post in old reddit is a pleasure, but in the redesign it's a complete mess. Why?
Oh and what the hell is the deal with links to content containing other completely unrelated content as well?
The day they kill old.reddit.com or API access to force me to stop using Apollo (which is an insanely well-built reddit client for iOS) is the day I'll just reluctantly stop using reddit entirely.
A taxi app, on the other hand, has a lot of functionality that is very hard to fit into a browser and implement well.
Getting a message "heavy traffic, your car has been delayed" is what everyone else seeming rational really wants. Messaging and awareness of the current state of the transaction they are in.
You have a page with a piece of JavaScript on it. Every 30 seconds it pings back "What's the status of request 12345678?" and updates a div.
If Domino's can display "your order has been handed to Steve for delivery", then a taxi service can say "Tom is stuck on the 405."
It really put a dent in how much I used to love Reddit.
And the mobile app is terrible terrible turd of epic proportions. The person who designed it is a monster.
'Allow'
Or
'Uninstall'
My suspect is that Bold wants you to use their app as they can eg send push notifications, and gather more metadata from users - some of which can be used for eg more signal on determining if a request might be fraudulent.
The latter was shut down unceremoniously a few years ago, but that was always my favourite thing to point out how over-engineered Uber often was - to the point of having two separate mobile websites for the exact same purpose.
This is the key takeaway I think, so many online businesses spend so much time trying to push me into their app, or accounts, or subscriptions, that they forget they're supposed to be taking my money. There are plenty of services I would have loved to use, but ya'll made it so damn hard to give you my money and order your services that I gave up.
In a world where every app tries to exploit "spur of the moment" brain shortcircuits a big nag seems counterintuitive, e.g. Reddit's "Download the app or go away" is my free reminder that I have better things to do.
This is what I think all these apps - Kuba, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are. They are changing behaviour at present, they make things easy and advantageous for the user. Then the trap will be sprung.
Similar to how corporate petrol stations and corporate super stores drop their prices to force local shops out of business. Once they have control and a monopolistic position they can do what they like re prices.
Here these companies are working with governance directives to decrease traffic on the roads - it suits the corporates for consumers to have less ability to travel. Making it easy for food, local travel etc whilst making it uncomfortable to have a car (extra regulations, decreasing capacity on roads, greater licensing fees, etc) is part of the plan.
The concern is that once we lose the freedom of independent travel that we have with private cars, that won't be coming back. You will be geo-fenced.
This itself fits very nicely with the dystopian agenda I see on the horizon, where if you are not considered a good citizen, your ability to travel and interact with the system will be curtailed. We see this with the freezing of protestor bank accounts in Canada, China's social credit system, green passes to access shops, etc. Geo fencing will be a part of that.
I meant Uber, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are!! Not the author's name!
If a business forces me to use their app, I won't use that business until I'm out of alternatives.
1) GPS tracking. They want to know where you are at all times. The app makes this tracking easier than a webpage.
2) Upselling. The Bolt app has front and center upselling to their car rental service, their scooter rental service, and their food delivery service. All these services share the same account and payment info too. -- Do these exist in the web version? I don't see them on the screenshots. These upsells can be implemented on the web too of course, but that probably hasn't happened as it requires web apps for those services too.
Why not ? It's not like that would matter anyway...
- nobody working at Bolt care that they geofencing is lame. The fault was there since the beginning and the two freelancers maintaining the web version have a long backlog, little visibility and no bargaining power. Plus, they haven't got their contract renewed yet.
- They have no idea your workaround exists. Even if they are bored enough to read Hacker News on a Sunday, their web app is going to be discontinued on the next API upgrade anyway.
Bonus point :
An app is just a nice frontend. I'm pretty sure you could make your own web client and order your own ride with a few API calls even if they patch the fault.
> So basically I made it easier for me to give Bolt money. You're welcome, Bolt!
But does Bolt even want my money? Maybe the real reason they push apps so hard is that apps allow more access to that sweet, sweet private data on my phone so they can sell it, which is their real cash cow?
Naturally these kind of dark patterns to force apps don't apply.
But Bolt is not a monopoly. There are many taxi services in Riga.
> I invite you to boycott any company that forces (or coerces) you to install an app...
I do not think I will boycott Bolt just because you hacked their product and somehow become outraged. Bolt rides are cheaper than the alternative and .. the app works. The alternative mainstream taxi app needs an ios upgrade, and the ios upgrade fails on my shitty old phone.
Edit: There is no uber in riga looks like. Nice work, but running a company that generates cash at scale is hard. So i am sympathetic to the app developer.
My experience is that if you don't speak Latvian, Bolt is basically the only choice to order a ride in Riga. Oh trust me, how I've tried. I never use those ride hailing services unless there's no other option left.
> No thanks I will not boycott Bolt because you chose to violate some ToS and hack their product and somehow become outraged.
Well, I'm not inviting people to boycott Bolt because I "hacked their product". I'm inviting to boycott Bolt because they are using dark patterns to take control away from users.
My local restaurant uses an app to do loyalty stamps... I really wish tey would come back to the traditional paper-based ones
outside of the imperial centers, "big tech" have already reached into governments.
for example, latin america governments make it very difficult to schedule a dmv visit without a cellphone number AND a meta/facebook's whatsApp account. While all public universities accepted a free google meet account for covid time remote classes, and now got a surprise multimillion bill to access material uploaded to the system after the original offer period.
things are already way past the point of no return.
while rich engineers are busy fiddling with websites to solver their own problems (could your immediate family have hailed that ride when in a similar situation?) companies have already encroached themselves in the very foundation of the institutions that could solve this via public policy.
Uber entered Estonia quite early and did its classic market share grab where it completely dominated. However they quickly lost that market share to Bolt (in a period of a few years, and even before it was called Bolt - it was Taxify back then) because of local market understanding and more concentrated marketing/advertising. Nowadays Uber still "works", but you have to wait 20 minutes for a car, compared to 2 minutes with Bolt. I get a sense that a good chunk of Uber drivers are banned from Bolt, but this is just a hunch based on the Uber drivers accepting low fee rides during surge pricing on Bolt.
Perhaps customers are no longer sustainable without that.
I fail to see why an app that delivers the promised feature can be annoying. More annoying than installing extensions, messing with HTTP requests, etc?
If Bolt didn't artificially geo-restrict this feature, navigating to their site would be all you need to do, and that's less annoying than using their app. The current method, installing an extension and making a rule for it, is the result of this restriction, but would not be needed without bolt's restrictions.
I think there are really obvious reasons for ridesharing and taxi apps to exclusively use apps. Notifications are very important to the experience (which you can't do on iOS Safari). Having persistent location access like a navigation app is another key part of the system.
Don't like it? Put your arm up and hail a cab or call the dispatch office to request a ride, that's what we had to do not even 20 years ago.
The app store duopoly and privacy problem isn't one that's solved by playing whack-a-mole with individual companies on those platforms. The way to solve those problems is by regulating Google and Apple's App Stores for both privacy and business practices.
I usually do this and call taxis by phone whenever I can, but in Riga this was exceptionally difficult due to language constraints
Most apps don’t do anything that couldn’t just be a webpage yet we’re being forced into handing control and service cut to apple and google and opening up more intimate data to service providers.