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Comment by the_af | Hacker News Reader

> “not all ideas make the cut, even the best ones”

I'm not sure I understand. If the best ideas don't make the cut, which ones do? Or was Jony acknowledging a flaw in Apple's process?

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>“People think focus means saying yes to the thing you've got to focus on. But that's not what it means at all. It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully.

-Steve Jobs.

But that's "good" ideas. I wouldn't object to that. Instead, Jony said the best ideas. By definition, this means you're necessarily choosing a worse idea, because there's nothing better than the best idea. Seems like a bad process to me!

Quantifying best is very difficult. Is it the best technically but market conditions makes it less appealing? Or is it the best fit for the market but it’s a nightmare to build and so they can’t pump enough of them out to be reasonable.

The products that launch end up being good enough in all areas but rarely/never the best in all areas.

It’s the sign of a healthy business IMHO

If quantifying "best" is so difficult, then maybe Ive should have worded his words of consolation better, maybe? Otherwise it's just an empty platitude.

Someone like Ive, and anyone within his professional circle, would necessarily be intimately familiar with the concept of “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, just as best is. Any one designers design is the best for that designer. Best, by anyones definition, doesn’t always make the cut.

I obviously disagree. And it's not like Ive has never made a mistake in his decisions or appreciations. His words are not holy.

The context here is product design. Does this mean that you think there's one perfect form of a product that everyone would agree is the best, from the bean counters, to the fabricators, to the users?

Well, if there isn't, Ive shouldn't have used the word "best"! It sends the wrong message. Designers should be careful with their words.

(As an aside, in my opinion -- and many others on HN, as I've read through the years -- Ive sometimes made the worst choice between two design decisions, so he definitely sometimes cut the best in favor of the less good).

(Also, judging by the reactions to my top-level comment, others agree with me!)

I think you're coming from a context that isn't design, so there's a language mismatch here. In design, and basically everything not dictated by maths/optimization, the precise definition of "best" is that it's subjective. From the dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/best

> 1. excelling all others

> 2. offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction

Different models of products exist because "best" is subjective. The phone that is best for me is not best for you, but both are precisely, by definition, best for each of us. You seem to be thinking that the word "best" means some absolute global maximum, which is not the definition of the word. That maximum is made from weights in some huge vector space, with those weights being different depending on the perspective of each of us. There is no "correct" perspective that can allow this global maximum, that you seem to be searching for, to exist.

You're making the assumption that he, a celebrated consumer product designer, was not aware of the subjective, multivariate, nature of "best", when used in the context of consumer product design. I don't think that's an appropriate assumption, for any professional designer.

Both definitions 1 & 2 are universal and not exclusive to design, and furthermore, prove my point.

I stand by my opinion: Ive was either careless about words, or pointing out a flaw in Apple's process.

Please, don't try to convince me I don't understand product design or what "best" means. At this point, this intellectual match trying to save Ive from his own words is not productive.

Let's agree to disagree.

How about an example then? Could you tell me what the best car to buy is? If you present the same make, model, and year as me, then perhaps you’re right. From what you've said, I think we can agree that you don't need details like my location, income, number of passengers, range, or driving habits.

> Could you tell me what the best car to buy is?

No, why would I?

> From what you've said, I think we can agree that [...]

No, we cannot agree on nothing of the sort. Where did I say I'm a car design expert?

Please stop trying to make me say things I don't want to. I'm just pointing out Ive's misleading use of language. Since Ive is a design expert, I hold him to a higher standard, but he certainly didn't "make the cut"! Maybe he wasn't the "best" after all.

There is Product Category A, Product Category B, and Product Category C. In each of those categories there is a "best" product.

But a company may not have the bandwidth to release in all three categories. So it may choose to focus on Product Category B, and the best implementation for B, and leave A and C (for now). Even though there are "best" implementations/ideas available for A and C.

Sometimes it is not possible for a company to walk and chew gum at the same time.

I read it as “even (some of) the best ones” based on the “not all ideas” start.

Could also be speaking with hindsight

Carful to remember the “some of”… but the best ideas might be too risky, not as practical, timed poorly, too controversial, etc.

Then they are not the best...

They are discussing design ideas. There might be many, many reasons why a product with an absolutely killer design could get cancelled anyway.

This means a better design idea won. So the idea that got cut wasn't the best!

Yeah like having a standard USB port on a laptop in 2020. At least they fixed it now.

You mean a USB A port? They brought back MagSafe, HDMI, and the SD card slot, but for USB it's still only USB C.

Wow, I somehow also had the misconception that USB A was back. I wonder how this shared delusion spread.

Not all the best ones do, it is quite straightforward. Some bad ones also do occasionally make the cut, but it tells more about the nature of ideas than Apple’s process at this point.

If that was Ive's meaning, that humans sometimes choose a worse idea than the best one, then it's both a truism and an empty platitude...

In Re: Betamax vs. VHS, what does "best" mean?

Excellent point. I don't know, maybe there was no clear-cut "best" in that case. Refreshing my memory about that formats war by reading Wikipedia, it wasn't obvious Betamax was "better" (it didn't check many of the boxes consumers wanted, like cheaper, longer running time, faster; instead, it checked boxes video professionals wanted, so it can be argued Beta was not "the best" for consumers!).

That said, in this case Ive seems to be arguing even in cases where the "best" can be identified and has a known meaning, it won't make the cut. By definition of "best", this means something "worse" will be chosen instead. Seems like a flawed process to me!

PS: if you ask me, I think Ive wasn't careful with his words, and instead he meant "even extremely good products sometimes don't make the cut, because they are competing with something even better here at Apple". But he said "best", an unfortunate word which made his statement... wrong. Someone so careful about design should also be careful about words, because words are also design.

> If the best ideas don't make the cut, which ones do?

The best idea might be too expensive for the market so you go with the next best one?

If it was too expensive, then it wasn't the best.

Whichever way you put it, it's either a flawed process or a weird turn of phrase by Ive.

No its not a flawed process nor a weird phrase.

Have you ever heard of "Good/Cheap/Fast — pick two"?

Yes I have, where is "best" in that triplet?

An unqualified "best" means it's the best. It was an unfortunate turn of phrase by Ive, a person known to make mistakes, as pointed out several times here on HN.

> An unqualified "best" means it's the best.

No not really, real life does not work that, you can be best in some aspect while not the best in other aspects but for some reason you dont seem to understand nuance, its probably your hatred for Ive that seems to be clouding your judgement.

"Best in some aspects" is not an unqualified best. Maybe Ive should have been more careful about his wording -- which was my point, after all!

> its probably your hatred for Ive that seems to be clouding your judgement

Wow. Hatred. I don't even know the guy, how can I hate him? I don't own a Mac, I just use one provided by my work. I don't own an iphone. I really don't pay much attention to Ive at all, just pointing out a flaw in his wording.

Hatred. Really. Is that how you normally debate?

> Is that how you normally debate

Is that how you normally debate by making personal attacks? You have already made up your mind the Ive makes many mistakes.

> Maybe Ive should have been more careful about his wording -- which was my point, after all!

and my point was that there are nuances which for some reason you still dont understand because you have already made up your mind about Ive, so lets agree to disagree because you are not going to change your opinion.

I'm sorry, where did I personally attack you? I struggle to follow your line of reasoning.

> You have already made up your mind the Ive makes many mistakes.

I made my mind just like any person would: by looking at past behavior. This is not a sin, is how human judgment works.

> you still dont understand

Ok then. Good luck with your debate tactics.

You are making personal attacks saying Ive has made many mistakes, instead of just arguing about the main point you have already made up your mind that whatever he does is a mistake and then you refuse to understand why you are wrong.

I dont need luck when facts are on my side. Good luck understanding nuance in the future.

> You are making personal attacks saying Ive has made many mistakes

That's not a personal attack.

> you have already made up your mind that whatever he does is a mistake

Uh, no.

As I said, good luck with that.

If you were being interviewed for jury selection for case against Ive, you would not be selected because of your bias against Ive.

As I said, Good luck understanding nuance in the future.

Jury selection, uh? Your line of argumentation is now surreal.

Good luck, and good bye.

It appears surreal to you because you are in some kind of obsession against Ive. That is not healthy.

Good luck to you too, you do need it.

I find it funny that you complained about personal attacks yet the only one here engaging in personal attacks is you.

You also seem obsessed with Ive.

I find it funny that you cannot just let go even though you said goodbye, that should tell you who is obsessed with Ive.

Well, likewise for you, isn't it?

You were the one who said good bye, not me.

But you do have some sort of fixation, wouldn't you agree?

Again it was you who said goodbye yet because of your obsession you are still continuing this conversation.

It takes two to tango, doesn't it?

What does it say about your obsession that you're continuing this thread?

I didnt say goodbye, you did.

You seem... obsessed with the word. Please tell me more.

I just find it funny that you said goodbye but your obsession and hatred against Ive made you come back. Please tell me more about your obsession.

Well... You're the only one mentioning him at this point. Who's obsessed?

What's funny is that you overstepped the line with the "personal attack" claim -- you know it, I know it -- but you're too stubborn to back down now, so you resort to... making personal attacks.

I am being entertained, you lost the argument with your bias and hatred, you know it, I know it but you are too stubborn to back down now so you resort to... changing the topic.

I still don't understand why you said goodbye if you had so much hatred inside you which you want to take out.

So you agree you resorted to personal attacks? Personal attacks entertain you?

Your effort to dig yourself into a hole is very entertaining to me. So please continue.

Would you say what you just wrote is yet another personal attack?

I see you enjoy insulting other people. One might even call it... hatred.

Do you feel insulted? That seems a bit rich coming from you when you were insulting Ive with your hatred.

What hatred? It's only in your mind. You cannot point to a single instance, unless you feel claiming someone is wrong about something is "hatred"... which would say a lot about you.

But yes, I do feel harassed by an online troll: you.

You are the one who said goodbye yet came came back to harass me like a troll because I told you why you are wrong and why you are biased.

Let me get this straight: so I am harassing you because I said goodbye but didn't stop responding, is that what upsets you so much?

And also I'm a troll because I didn't take it in stride when you started saying I'm "insulting with my hatred" someone I don't know?

Did I get this right, is this what offended you so much?

I'm sorry I hurt you so much, you poor thing.

Your harassment does not upset me, it entertains me.

You are a troll because you said goodbye but when someone proved you wrong, you could not handle it because of your hatred.

You should feel sorry for yourself, you need to see someone to handle your hate which is festering inside you.

You're really so upset about the "goodbye" thing!

I missed the part where you "proved me wrong", I guess I need my glasses!

Tell me more about hatred, please.

Its so funny that your hatred brings you back even after saying goodbye, why did you say bye and then shamelessly come back?

Read my comments again with your glasses.

So we are back to "goodbye" and "hatred" uh? Hatred against whom, exactly?

Could you please link to your comment where you "proved me wrong", for my own edification?

We are never moving away from your goodbye, you shamelessly coming back was probably the most embarrassing moment in your life and very funny for me.

Did you get your glasses and read my previous comments again?

It could mean there are more than one.

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