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Comment by PaulHoule | Hacker News Reader

A big issue is that finance continues to draw the bright, ambitious and the greedy away.

Somebody who founds a company worth $5 billion is royalty in Silicon Valley. Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that. Much more money for much less work, risk and accomplishment.

You just can't make enough money from startups to impress people in NYC.

Other than that I'll say that NYC has the most formal dress code of anywhere I've been. You can show up in "hacker costume" that includes clean denim and a t-shirt that fits in any town other than NYC. In NYC, people ~will~ hold it against you if you don't wear a button down, tie and all that.

My motto is "when in rome", but it's not an attitude that's welcoming of tech talent.

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Funny, I don't know what NYC you experienced, but the one I live in has a much wider variety of people than the types you've mentioned.

I know plenty of people that go to work in jeans and a t-shirt, and no one holds it against them. Personally, I prefer to dress a little bit nicer; not to mention that (other than during the summer), the weather dictates the dress code to a large extent.

I could go on with more counter examples, but the point is, you have a very narrow view of what NYC is actually like.

* P.S., re: Coffee: Try the Ace Hotel lobby on 29th between Broadway and 5th. There is an independently-run Stumptown Coffee shop attached (best coffee in NYC) and I'm there virtually every Sunday working on my laptop. With their free wifi. Along with about 20 other people doing the same thing.

How are you working there? There's loud, obnoxious music playing all the time.

My earbuds block outside noise very well. (Also, I generally don't seem to mind working in noisy environments.)

I just have to say, the best coffee in NYC is actually La Colombe on Lafayette and Prince. I will buy you a cup if you haven’t tried it ;)

I'm gonna go with Gimme coffe. But stumptown is decent as well. La Colombe is a little too bitter for my taste ;)

We at blip have been frequenting gimme!, but less so since Bowery Coffee opened on Houston. You should really check that out, it's great.

Nope the best place is the The Pulp and The Bean in brooklyn. Ask for the Dieci :)

Agreed. Most NYC Startups don't have anything resembling a dress code. I even wore jeans and t-shirts to most of my job interviews.

I'll second La Colombe and Gimme Coffee in Soho!

Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that [$5B].

Where do these numbers come from? They are wildly incorrect.

George Soros is only about $20B. Bridgewater is about $40B. JP Morgan Asset Management is $30B. Citadel is $10B. (Numbers are all from rough recollection, may have changed since I last heard them.)

$5B is royalty in NY just like it is in SV.

Besides, being the founder (and hence presumably the owner of a significant slice) of $N is much, much better than being merely the guy who manages $N of someone else's money.

There's definitely a point here somewhere, though. New York City has a way of making you feel poor unless you're very, very wealthy. A few million doesn't cut it.

> "New York City has a way of making you feel poor unless you're very, very wealthy. A few million doesn't cut it."

SF is very much the same, though to a somewhat lesser extent. Hasn't stopped it from being a tech hub though, so I'm not sure if that's the deciding factor.

Yes and no. Certainly compared to the real world, San Francisco is a place where you need a lot of money to do anything (or rather, to have a place to live) but the psychological factors aren't there. I can easily go into the best restaurants in town, drink at the best bars, hang out at the best nightclubs, and I don't feel like I'm out of place or that I could be having a much better time if only I'd spent a lot more money. That's not a feeling I get in New York, Los Angeles or (worst of all) Las Vegas (even though I'm keenly aware that I probably am richer than all of the folks who are trying very hard to look rich in Las Vegas).

I think the two of you are using different definitions. Soros indeed has assets of X billion dollars. That kid from Yale has assets of 50 million that he has leveraged 100 times to be able to control positions valuing at 5 billion.

I totally agree that finance draws top talent (and that I really wish it wouldn't), but I wouldn't say that a lot of those folks work less hard. I spent 4 years on Wall Street (loosely construed) and spent time with some of the hardest workers I've ever encountered. The earnings they generate, however, are definitely far above startup folks, on average.

It is interesting, though, to look at the tails of that distribution. That's where you find the massive wealth generation. And, instructively, at those outer limits, you'll find that the top of the top is populated by entrepreneurs as much as it is by finance guys. Bill Gates, Ellison, Zuck, etc. compare to the Warren Buffets, John Paulsons, and their compatriots.

Good point - important to look at the tail. Also, a lot of these burnt out finance kids are finding tech interesting - but so many just want to become a vc. I think its a personality issue too - have had so many mind numbing conversations with super smart NYC finance whizes who want to start a company but the template line is: I have the concept, i'll hire a tech guy, give him 5% equity, and we will conquer the world. Very very few are doing it to solve a problem / create a company - the primary focus is still what it was while running the hedge fund.

Having said that - there is so much good stuff coming up in NYC too. Good signs.

NYC and SF are places that attract people from all over the world. The local talent pool is dwarfed by the worldwide talent pool. They even draw talent from each other.

So really it's a question of whether finance is drawing people away from entrepreneurship in general. Given that finance is the most reliable road to riches these days, I'd say certainly it is, but entrepreneurship offers far more in the way of creative rewards and the opportunity to "change the world".

NYC's competitiveness with the valley probably doesn't have much to do with how much money or respect is in finance. Rather it's about the quality of the ecosystem for entrepreneurship. NYC could easily become competitive with SV without Wall Street having to take any hit at all. If the absolute opportunity for entrepreneurship were better in NYC then it would be just as attractive to potential entrepreneurs, except for the few who want to be "big fish", but that type of attitude is not conducive to success as an entrepreneur anyway.

Finance is a big draw for sure, but financial companies have a really bad reputation as places to work. Every hacker in New York understands that finance pays well, but otherwise sucks compares to every other place you might work - hours, dress code, working environment, etc. are all worse.

I will agree that people are generally more greedy here than anywhere else on the planet. And there is a certain segment of the city that only respects people with lots of money, certainly to a degree you won't encounter elsewhere. But that doesn't describe everyone in New York.

It is true that in some contexts people dress very formally here compared to other cities, but my experience is that the startups in New York have a dress code that is just as informal as startups elsewhere. If you saw anyone wearing a tie in an office, I can pretty much guarantee that it wasn't the office of a startup, even in New York.

> You just can't make enough money from startups to impress people in NYC.

How many people do startups to impress random other people? Is NYC different in this respect?

My impression* has never been that you're expected dress nicely, just presentable. You might not be able to get away with wearing that ragged pair of jeans and old tshirt that you happen to really like, but that doesn't mean button-up shirts and slacks. Just something that, you know, isn't fraying at the seams.

* From growing up just next to NYC and making my way into the city pretty often.

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