Therefore, the relevant question is not "is the company within its rights to fire these employees", but rather "was it a good idea for the company to fire these employees".
edit: Given how fast this post hit -4, I have to assume that these people are *OK* with being able to fire gay or trans people at a whim. That ain't cool, one bit.
Supreme Court rules workers can’t be fired for being gay or transgender
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/15/supreme-court-rules-workers-...
Instead it's called "lack of culture fit", "insubordination", or a myriad of any other right-to-work excuses as to fire someone you disagree with.
But yes, for those stupid enough to put "Fired because of gay", well, it still is legal due to the loopholes a Mack Truck could drive through. https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-we...
There are also laws that prohibit employers from punishing employees in certain circumstances relating to organizing/petitioning when in regard to concerns about workplace issues.
For example:
>You have the right to act with co-workers to address work-related issues in many ways. Examples include: [...] joining with co-workers to talk directly to your employer, to a government agency, or to the media about problems in your workplace
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...
Somewhat untrue in theory. Completely untrue in practice. There are a few things you legally cannot be fired for, and a whole plethora of things a company would need to very very careful about firing you for, lest they wind up in court.
Imagine working with someone like this? If you've been in an organization with people are constantly getting into flame wars about political issues, its incredibly distracting to those that want to get work done.
Some people buy the whole "we're a family" HR spin, but its not true. You're there to do a job and you're paid to do so.
Any organization that's worth working at, obviously. And there are plenty of them.
I don't have any complaints about my current organization, but whenever I feel something has transgressed my personal code of ethics I'm first very vocal about it internally and if necessary externally. I've only ever left companies voluntarily after this, and most have made efforts for me to stay. And it's not like I've been working at the most progressive companies ever.. maybe just don't work at a Musk company.
I personally think its obnoxious and counterproductive for someone to call management out publicly. That's no way to operate an organization. Its a sign that someone is toxic. Some orgs like Bridgewater tried that but that's def not a place I would want to work. The appropriate channels and structure exist for a reason. They're not perfect but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know better than everyone else
https://www.cnet.com/tech/google-fires-another-ai-researcher...
Seems like we have come to the real root of things! We can agree to disagree.
Huge difference between calling out issues and publicly demanding the CEO to be fired.
Elon Musk put his workers in this dilemma and he should have expected a subset of them to speak out critically against him. I honestly don’t know other large organizations in our industry that is in the same situation, so there is really nothing to compare it with.
It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause.
I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority"[0]
This example could easily be one of those instances.
Back in the old days(!) one was expected to do one's job well, to treat others professionally - and to expect others to treat you well - but don't bring your private causes into the workplace and expect everyone to love you for it. Do what you like on your own time, but on the company's time, follow the rules.
[0]https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
That's also Twitter's policy on trolling and harassment which his totally sincere "free speech absolutism" seeks to end.
Intimidation isn't asking fellow employees if they agree with the content of an open letter, it's public figures calling a blogger and telling them if their blog criticising Tesla isn't taken down, their totally unrelated boss will be getting a phone call . Guess which one Musk personally involved himself in...
Errm, if fellow employees feel intimidated by you pitching up and asking them to sign, that's what we call intimidation, at least these days.
If you want to organise an open letter, put it up somewhere public, tell everyone involved, and wait for people to sign it? Or not, it's their choice.
So far, the only person who has suggested employees felt intimidated is the COO defending the decision to fire them. Just in case you were inclined to actually believe that her priority was to encourage employees to speak out against harassment and not intimidate them into silence she added that the company had "too much critical work to accomplish", no place for "activism" and told remaining employees to "stay focused",
I mean, I accept it's theoretically possible the real intimidation wasn't the COO firing 5 people for the "unacceptable" sending of emails asking people if they agreed with their views about management and the anti-harassment policy "during the work day", but I'm going to file that one away under very unlikely
Perhaps people who support activism should just start their own companies - as majority shareholders they could easily mandate that management specify time to be spent on activism... no need for focus.
> Perhaps people who support activism should just start their own companies
Got it. Employees should sort of organise an open letter and tell everyone involved but also not organise an open letter or tell anyone because how employees spend their waking hours and what they should think is up to management.
Also, sending an email circular asking people to sign a petition is intimidation, but telling people that activism is an "unacceptable" loss of focus whilst announcing firings is all about protecting people from intolerance of other viewpoints.
I mean, employers can and do fire people all the time for embarrassing the company, though doing it for criticising the CEO and insufficiently strong protections from harassment tends to be dodgy ground. But the idea that they're doing so to promote tolerance is the most Orwellian bullshit take imaginable. Popper's paradox of tolerance is about what level of safeguard is necessary to prevent free speech democracies from collapsing, not making it clear that people aren't allowed to criticise their boss and especially not on company time.
It's not clear whether employees should be using company resources and company time to organise against the company or its management. Is that something we think is a given right? If so, why?
There is a reason that during a (legitimate!) strike pickets have to stand off their employer's property. We had that in the 70s with the NUM, we had that in 2010 when BA strikers were prohibited from entering (private) Heathrow property[1]
> the idea that they're doing so to promote tolerance is the most Orwellian bullshit take imaginable
1) there's quite a lack of tolerance left of centre, and 2) context is everything.
Your starter for ten: I'll give you a quote, so without searching, take a wild guess who said it...
> "Everybody understands all lives matter. Everybody wants strong, effective law enforcement."
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/mar/16/british-air...
Indeed. The context has nothing to do with weird digressions about the tolerance of the left or picket line legislation in the UK. The context is that a company fired some people for sending emails criticising a CEO with a long track record of being even less tolerant of criticism than the average CEO whilst asserting it's unacceptable for staff to question the company's anti-harassment policies. The context is the CEO also has a track record of threatening to get people who never worked with him fired from their completely unrelated job if they don't take their blog posts criticising him and his company down. Stating that he may be legally entitled to do this is one thing. Citing the paradox of tolerance to argue that cancelling people who criticise Elon Musk and ruling out the possibility of debate on SpaceX harassment policy is in fact compatible with "free speech absolutism", because email circulars questioning the boss' behaviour and harassment policies (or blogging on SeekingAlpha, I guess) intimidates people is... something else entirely.
Excluding of course, the CEO of the company in question. He can say anything he wants, fight with and call people pedophiles on Twitter, run a crypto pump and dump scheme, spread pandemic conspiracies, etc etc etc to the point that investors in his companies have spoken up about it and now his own employees are writing letters. That behavior is totally professional and ok.
https://ballotpedia.org/Ballotpedia%27s_Polling_Index:_Gener...
As Terry Pratchett so wonderfully put it in Making Money (Discworld #36)[0], there is "a piece of ancient magic called [..] fifty-one percent of the shares".
As far as what happens at SpaceX goes, Musk isn't the minority. He's the (?? 78%) majority owner.
So, if you work at SpaceX and don't like him, I think the options boil down to: a) suck it up, or b) find somewhere else to work ...
... or maybe c) leave and start your own SpaceX? We all know competition is good. Of course in that case you'll really have Skin In The Game[1] - and coincidentally that's the Taleb book I've been reading this afternoon.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Money [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_in_the_Game_(book)
Also, that linked post is something else. In the span of one really long essay, he went from halal food, to trying to intellectually rehabilitate Brexit, to a maximally-extended version of the Paradox of Tolerance, and then finally to disproving the right-libertarian thesis that market manipulation is impossible. I genuinely can't tell if this is brilliantly considered, or just authoritarian right-wingers trying to specifically feed me propaganda.
I don't really get how musk's feelings on free speech apply here. SpaceX is not the government, and it's not a communications platform. I also think it's unfair to say "his feelings are hurt" - it seems perfectly logical to get rid of employees that so strongly disagree with the way the company is being run.
And I have to wonder, why even work there if that's how you feel? This just looks like another example of a group of people who have "problems" with their company but don't want to give up the pay that it provides them.
I principled person would at least quit before making a scene in the media, rather than spamming many people in the company.
This is look at me behaviour coupled with politics at its worse.
Real trade can happen without the speculation game. Some people may not get to build rocket engines in such a system but the species doesn’t owe a minority of first world engineers everything they want anymore than it owes an even smaller minority of billionaires.
The propaganda has worked really well; you seem to actually believe human agency is coupled only to the money making endeavors before us today.
Past technology is a joke relative to ours and so will these fancy things we make today seem to the future. Fleeing Earth on rockets is not the only path. It’s the only path we are allowed to speak to. Alternatives would cause the wrong people to lose privilege and power.
Of course they are. Concerted workplace activity to improve workplace conditions is protected under NLRB. It's literally the definition of protected activity.
I'm sure you can think of reasons other than "feelings getting hurt" for these firings...
I strongly hope the fired individuals do look into getting a labor lawyer representing them.
This is totally incorrect.
Free speech in this case is an opinion. The right to free speech is not freedom from consequences for voicing opinions.
Point me to the place he’s said you have a capital-R Right to not be banned from Twitter.