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> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear?

The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are to some degree or another intelligent (we intentionally bred some of the intelligence out of many.) That has no bearing on whether someone eats meat or not. You have assumptions that most of the world do not share with you.

I feel bad if I see a fly slowly dying, but I'll still kill all houseflies that bother me. There's no contradiction in that. Death isn't suffering; quite the opposite.

>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them

Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.

You think people that hang around bars trying to start fights deserve to be eaten?

Their benevolence aside, do you believe all assholes deserve to be killed? And what about the more problematic, all assholes deserve to suffer?

I think it's difficult to untangle their benevolence from their self-protection. But I did see several signs of curiosity and inter-species care between cows.

You also have to consider that we're the assholes :)

(Note: In that case, no, I don't think we should be killed, just improve)

Your line of reasoning is not very logical and dare I say it - barbaric. To condemn a sentient being because you deem it being an 'asshole'.

There is a spectrum of characters - even among the animal kingdom - including us humans.

Here is a counter argument: https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates...

Your line of thinking follows that of Peter Singer. I'd imagine that his brand of philosophy would appeal to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

There are vegan hunters around, too. People that hate the bio Industry yet still feel it’s allright to eat meat. Given that an animal has lived a good and free life and the death is swift.

No there aren't. I have no doubt the people you describe exist, but "vegan hunter" is a complete oxymoron unless you're talking about "hunting" berries. Even descriptivist dictionaries don't include any definition of vegan which allows for eating meat.

Ive heard the term for a lack of a better word and find it fair enough. But the point im making is that there are people that refuse to participate in the bio-industry due to ethical considerations, yet hunt for their own food and do so scarcely.

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict.

I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in front of their mothers and all manner of other things. “Because I’m a vegan.” And he revels in those mother cows suffering. Something like around 1/100 of humans (or males?-googled) are psychopaths.

I don’t worry about a super intelligence spawning from AI and wiping out humanity. At best that’s just projection. I figure a super intellect is equally or more likely to be benevolent since nonzero sum games require cooperation (or something like this). If that’s wrong then at least I suspect a super intelligence would see cooperation as greater than decimation.

I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment.

That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.

Several third person verified.

Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it.

But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this world.

Like people can high five over loving bacon and what have you, but honestly the eating habits of most people are deplorable and selfish and they can numbly read about ecological devastation caused by industrialized animal farming and the rampant use of antibiotics which in turn is creating super bacteria immune to it (let us not forget covid came from a meat market as well as the seasonal avian and bovine “flus” which manifest constantly).. you guys can cry in carnivore all you want but the worst thing of the situation is that eating meat or drinking dairy is not necessary: it is all done for pleasure. It’s just pathetic that people can look at all that and reply “.. but cheese”.

>> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from.

I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do.

That being said as a child I've been exposed to animal slaugther on farms and I still eat beef, chicken and pork(very, very rarely). I don't think seeing how the animals are killed makes you vegan.

I don't enjoy watching animals being killed though but we are mortals and animals are mortals too so in the end it makes little difference if we kill or do not kill animals. We have the same end destination. I think this makes us less sensitive to killing animals and even our own. The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us.

We should minimise the pain inflicted upon animals and create better living conditions. It's good for animals and it's good for the consumers as well. Legislation already exists in Europe and will only get stronger.

>> The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us.

Same logic can be applied to children until a certain age, disabled, sick, old and/or mentally handicapped people. Kettle is easy to take advantage of, it's convenient and almost everything they "produce" can be sold (milk, meat, skin). Not showing enough compassion for sentient beings while having the ability and options to not have them as "a tasty meal" makes you a bad person in that regard. You can be social worker, a teacher, doctor or overall caring person, and have other great character traits, because nothing has to be black and white. Having superior intelligence and using that as an argument to justify exploitation of other living beings is a very sad way to look at all of this in my eyes.

I don't think you're a bad person.

> psychopaths would make better soldiers

No, not at all.

Soldiers work as part of a team, which is part of a larger team. You can't count on a psychopath to care about the team or the larger organization.

What (should) motivate a solider to kill is the same emotion as a sheep dog protecting the flock, or a mother bear protecting her cubs.

What motivates a psychopath to kill is harder to say, but it is not something which is generally recognized as morally good.

Makes sense. I was thinking being less emotional a psychopath could coupe better with dire situations.

I'm not so sure about "better soldiers", but they'll probably make very iconic war criminals if drafted into the military. the co-worker that revels in murdering babies in front of mothers will surely make headlines.

I wouldn't think these war-criminals come out of nowhere. they probably get their head start in torturing neighbourhood cats, gloating about how much they love meat and don't care about the torture, and how they personally love to bash heads in[1] and murder children in front of mothers.

[1] https://theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/19/millions-of-...

The future is vegan. While most people are still refusing it I can see the cultural attitudes changing. Your coworker is a dink for sure but most other people are just going with the flow or are misinformed. For every smirking edgelord there are loads of people who just aren’t ready to change because of nostalgia and weakness rather than malice.

I'm sorry to hear you have to work with such a person. Most probably a psychopath and sadist.

Who takes joy in killing babies in front of their mothers? And then gloating about it. Only a seriously effed up mind.

What's the solution? Report to HR?

Vegan's take their moral stance / religion and then try to push it as a health thing with biased reasoning, which can lead to general negative human health consequences as it percolates through via policy.

Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.

I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption.

Any suggested reading for someone like me?

A Plea for the Animals, Eating Animals, or Animal Liberation

I’d start with Eating Animals. The author started the book to explore how his food ends up on his plate, but the book becomes about his gradual transition to veganism as he learns about animal agriculture.

A Plea for the Animals should be the second one. Written by a neurologist/monk who eloquently makes the argument that there is nothing in our biology which justifies subjugating animal.

Then Animal Liberation if you’re looking for a classic. It’s older, a bit more esoteric, but decent.

I’d suggest looking at some plant based diet athletes like Kylie Irving and see what he’s doing. I’m not going to lie or pretend that egg whites have a 1:1 equivalent in vegan nutrition but I would suggest taking a cold hard look at your performance requirements if you are competing on a professional level and if it really is all that necessary to squeeze that extra 3% performance edge or whatever it may be by eating meat or dairy. Maybe check out some vegan fitness youtubers or watch The Game Changers to get started. I’m weightlifting and running and I feel better and stronger as a vegan.

Thank you

Do you really need 200g protein at 2500 calories? Those numbers seem off to me, 200g protein is what a big guy trying to gain a lot of muscle might eat to make absolutely sure he's getting enough, but 2500 calories is what a big guy would eat to maintain or even lose weight. Everyone is different, but you might need either less protein or more calories than you think you do.

If 200/2500 really is the goal then I'm not sure you can do it without meat, or at least without lots of protein powder supplements. The highest protein/calorie ratio for normal food I can think of is from soy milk or lentils, which are both roughly the same at around 1g/protein per 11-13 calories, and you'd have to eat those exclusively.

well assessed, 200/2500 are my cutting targets

Humans have a choice and the ability to consider and reason about morality. It doesn't matter what we technically are, because we have a choice in what we eat and how we treat animals.

Vegan bears and native tribes are irrelevant, you live in a modern world/society and both are poor attempts at deflection that don't hold up under even the slightest scrutiny.

Even if you refuse to consider the argument for veganism, the way we treat the animals we eat is an abject horror, modern animal farming is indefensible.