Glucosamine significantly reduces risk of lung cancer and lung cancer mortality
erj.ersjournals.com
erj.ersjournals.com
This part caught my eye:
> A stronger association between glucosamine use and decreased lung cancer risk was observed in participants with a family history of lung cancer when compared with those without a family history.
Interesting that it’s sold as supplement for joint and related tissue repair and yet first big science study with observable results is about cancer.
Other interesting point is that it’s study of cancer. And that is simply because China still has huge numbers of smokers and the health cost is stratospheric.
That said, a meaningful result here would be welcome.
RCTs are great but can have problems with generalizability to real-world conditions. Ideally you'd study both.
Conversely, if we had a large observational study that was then contradicted by a robust RCT... well, I'd still be inclined to trust the RCT.
(At the same time, I think a good observational study is, by its nature, more applicable to one's own life. If an observational study suggests that $FOOBAR is good, then -- as long as there's also a solid RCT confirming that $FOOBAR is safe -- why not try out some $FOOBAR for yourself?)
In theory, these observational findings could suggest treatments that should be evaluated in a randomised trial. I am not actually sure this is true however, it is possible they are less useful than selecting interventions for further testing in some other way. Anecdotally, folk remedies may have a higher hit rate for selecting treatments for proper evaluation. This is often surprising - eg a precursor to aspirin is found in the Willow tree, which has been used as a medicine for thousands of years. Another example is the foxglove plant from which the heart drug digoxin is derived, which was used as a herbal medicine predating modern medicine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aspirin#History_o...
https://theconversation.com/hippocrates-and-willow-bark-what...
https://www.galvnews.com/health/free/article_8c8b50e5-6712-5...
All science needs to be published. Pilot studies, observational studies, quasi-experimental studies. Otherwise, we don't have the information we need to create randomized control trials.
However, I'd strongly support keeping all that science from being publicized.
What’s your plan for doing this?
Because things other than randomized studies produce the results that generate the funding for randomized studies.
Another: not all research can or should have randomized studies (like it just wouldn't make sense if you were, say, determining the structure of a protein). So drawing the line as to what does and doesn't need a specific approach is blurry, and really, can only be enforced during the peer review process, or by the editor.
On the other hand, this kind of work can still serve as a hypothesis generator. Someone else will read this, think, "well they did this all wrong!" and perform a better study that clearly demonstrates whether it has an effect or not.
But when I looked up what "case control, test-negative" means, I found that it is observational, and there is no intervention provided to any of the individuals. Some of the recent discussions of the design indicate that it is understood by scientists, but can mislead laypeople, who assume that its conclusions are much more robust than they actually are.
We should definitely continue to do research of many types, partly as a way to figure out where to spend the time/money to do RCTs (which are more expensive than other types of analysis). But we need people reporting on studies to be very clear up-front when they are not describing an RCT. They should say what the study's conclusion means, versus what it would mean if there were a similar 'finding' in an RCT. Otherwise people will not understand that they are being told a weak conclusion, not realizing there is a strong conclusion that has gone unmentioned.
Yet we want to do research in these areas. So we have to make do with what's possible.
The problem is when it gets printed in mainstream press who sensationalize and then posted to reddit/hn where people go 'duh this is obvious, this is a dumb thing to study', 'sample too small', 'not controlling for income/confounding'.
People that did not take the vaccine, despite all the pressure, tend to be healthier as population. They kind of self selected by being self confident in their health and not worrying about dying from COVID. The triple vaccinated in Ontario are now the highest risk of getting COVID. They too self selected, by tending to be older with pre existing health problems, and worried enough to get boosters.
asking because you only linked to the homepage of a general data portal which itself reports its no longer being updated,
versus to a study supporting what you're saying
you actually only linked to the homepage of a general data portal (not even a specific data set),
versus to a study supporting what you're saying
I have to imagine this is a mistake in getting the specific URL you were actually looking at
I don't understand how the source you shared supports this claim*. If anything, it shows the opposite - you're at far higher risk of death if you're unvaccinated. And that's after considering the fact that unvaccinated people are likely to be younger and fitter.
The unvaccinated have, at best, half as many deaths per 100k as those who are fully vaccinated + booster (in reality, the two lines mostly track each other). Which sounds good, until you realize that the unvaccinated make up only 9% of the population. 33% of the deaths coming from 9% of the population - healthier, they are not. Delusional, would be more correct.
* I'm assuming "getting COVID" here means "having serious consequences from an infection" as opposed to merely being infected. The vaccinated make up the vast majority of the population, so it's obvious that they are also at the highest risk of being infected by COVID. There are very few unvaccinated people left for the virus to infect.
If you don't believe me, here is a second set of data from Walgreens. Look at the third page.
https://www.walgreens.com/businesssolutions/covid-19-index.j...
The Ontario page does not show the death rate.
Thanks for the correction.
> The Ontario page does not show the death rate.
Doesn't it? I see a graph titled "Deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status". And that still shows higher deaths/100k in the "Not fully vaccinated" group for every given adult age range: 18-39, 40-59, and 60+ (look at the All time data).
> here is a second set of data from Walgreens. Look at the third page.
That shows the positivity rate. I'm not talking about the positivity rate. We're beyond that now. Everyone will get Covid someday. The vaccine protects you from dying or having serious health issues. There's no vaccine, for any disease, that can prevent you from contracting the disease. That would require vaccines to create force fields around your body, which are science fiction. In the case of the most efficacious vaccines, your immune system will be so well-prepared that your body will fight off the infection without you ever getting any symptoms.
So the last cited death rate is 0.01 vs 0.02 / per 100,000 people. So the vaccinated have 1 death per (100 * 100,000 = 10 million). Or 1 death per 10 million and the "not fully vaccinated" have 2 deaths per 10 million. To give context Ontario has a population of 14 million people. This seems like an easy relative win for the vaccine.
Except:
1) The numbers of deaths are so low, its kind of meaningless to extrapolate to the general population from them, because of sample bias effects.
One reason being that deaths could be coming from a very likely specific sub population. For example very old sick people already in hospital or nursing homes near death that contract the disease. Pretty much anything could kill them. It has no bearing on how a random person from the general population would react. You might have situation where for example there are people that chemo therapy failed, and they either refuse the vaccine (since they will die within weeks anyway) or might be so sick and too weak to take the vaccine and then contract covid as the last straw that breaks them.
So it would be very disingenuous to claim based on such small number that the vaccine lowered deaths in the general population. It would be like telling people in Hawaii to wear gloves to prevent frostbite, based on data collected from Canada showing that people that did not wear gloves had twice the rate of frostbite.
2) "Unvaccinated" and "Not Fully Vaccinated" are two different things according to their definition. They're clearly counting anyone that died within two weeks of getting a shot as being unvaccinated, even if it was their second shot. This is not a fair comparison.
3) Our prime minister caught covid twice in the last 4 months despite being vaccinated and boosted.
There have been studies that show that natural acquired immunity is longer lasting. Since the odds of dying are so low at this point, would you rather get covid once and feel a little bit sicker, unvaccinated, for longer lasting immunity. Or would you rather get vaccinated and boosted and catch it twice, feeling a little less sick each time. Which is what the data seems to be showing is happening. This seems like it should be personal preference decision.
Im sure this will be different in areas where there is no public awareness of a risk factor vs ones where there are. Eg healthy diets select for people who care about their health, so it's not so infomative, vs something where the link is not publicly known (so that the observational study is already somewhat blind/randomized).
As such, the general bias against publishing non-significant results could mean the conditions for being able to even try such a review risk biasing the review towards exaggerating agreement.
(It also seems the Cochrane review here may itself only be considering other reviews - a metameta analysis of sorts – which might also be influenced by a selection bias, if there’s any chance at all that researchers choosing work, & then publication decisions, prefer to address questions where there’s more agreement, rather than less-attention-catching mixed results.)
The most convincing evidence here would be how strongly preregistered RCT results, whether ever published or not, tend to match earlier observational studies. It doesn’t appear to me that this Cochrane review is focused on that.
Wrt publication bias; an underestimation of the false positive rate of observational studies wrt RCTs could occur if non-significant RCTs are being held back at a higher rate than observational ones, but it seems more likely to me that it's the other way around since RCTs are generally more expensive and time consuming than observational studies, and more trusted, so it's a bigger loss if the result isn't published.
For example, for COVID vaccines, we’re being inundated with observational data - often informal, sometimes in reviewed studies - long after initial approval RCTs.
I was disappointed to see the authors didn’t take the additional step of doing propensity score matching or weighting to account for propensity to take glucosamine.
Here’s a good reference about propensity score matching: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144483/
Even something that details the difference between a population study and randomized controlled trials.
It might be more 'lay person' than you are looking for, but it's an excellent read for myriad other reasons, so you wouldn't be wasting your time (IMO).
Glucosamine (GlcN) gets acetylated to form GlcNAc, which is found in pretty much all the complex carbohydrate types in humans. It’s also the main component of the chitin shells on our insect/crustacean friends.
You can also find GlcN in glycosaminoglycans (GAGs), in heparan sulfates (transformed from GlcNAc to an N-sulfated GlcN by the NDSTs) as a prerequisite for further sulfation. The pattern of sulfation on these sugars is important for determining the bioactivity and interactions for each of the GAGs. For example, the sulfation pattern on heprarin is important to tune to avoid HITT while still maintaining anticoagulant activity.
Or are the chemical pathways in the body too dissimilar for that to happen?
Generally, I don’t think we know enough about how metabolite levels translate to specific complex carb levels because there’s a relatively complex set of intermediate steps which themselves can be regulated.
Other supplements have shown benefits in these sorts of studies without standing up to more exacting experiment design.
So potentially interesting results but nothing worth getting invested in.
It is amusing you should say ways that avoid reaching the brain. The blood-brain barrier impedes a large number of therapeutics from entering the brain. It is incredibly difficult to engineer the constraints of something that: is potent enough to have an effect, can survive in the blood, cross into the brain, targets the cells of interest, has a meaningful half-life, does not decompose into something toxic, etc.
https://www.nei.nih.gov/learn-about-eye-health/eye-condition....
Inflammation is correlated with many conditions, so I would not be surprised to see other correlations, or that it was combined with other inflammation reducing agents.
https://www.seriouseats.com/spanish-style-garlic-shrimp-gamb...
Seriously. Get some good shrimp, some garlic, and go to town on some crusty bread. It's one of the recipes I'd still eat even if it took time off my life, it's just so damn good.
https://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-...
Note there is a version made from corn but more expensive and you have to look for it (I think it's called "GreenGrown"). I think it's chemically identical?
But as others have stated it’s observational, not an interventional study. Thus less rigorous.
https://ard.bmj.com/content/79/6/829 - Associations of regular glucosamine use with all-cause and cause-specific mortality: a large prospective cohort study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33219063/ - Glucosamine/Chondroitin and Mortality in a US NHANES Cohort
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175750/ - Use of Glucosamine and Chondroitin and Lung Cancer Risk in the VITamins And Lifestyle (VITAL) Cohort
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870876/ - Glucosamine Use and Risk of Colorectal Cancer: Results from the Cancer Prevention Study II Nutrition Cohort
https://cancerci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-286... - Glucosamine suppresses proliferation of human prostate carcinoma DU145 cells through inhibition of STAT3 signaling (in vitro)
https://www.pharmacytoday.org/article/S1042-0991(17)30735-1/... - Glucosamine and chondroitin decrease colorectal cancer risk
Some of those still showed significant correlation even when accounting for NSAID use however there have been other studies where the correlation significance disappears when accounting for NSAIDs: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-20349-6
Mortality reduction with glucosamine has been directly shown in more controlled studies on other organisms such as nematodes and mice, but may do so through a path that hasn't been shown to work in humans: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4563
And in an actual double blind study glucosamine (+ chondroitin) use was found to lower serum levels of C-reactive protein in men and women: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... (small sample size)
I find it extremely difficult to trust an all-Chinese research team on a substance heavily used in "traditional chinese medicine", for two reasons:
"TCM" is the invention of Mao, who needed to look like he was doing something to provide medical care for billions: https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/traditional-chinese-med...
...and the CCP has been pushing it very heavily: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/08/31/china-is-rampin...
Or more simply put, it's utter tripe that was passed off to peasants to keep them from rioting over having essentially no healthcare system.
... This is a bit of a ridiculous argument to make when looking at the data. First of all, they only have 8 categories, only 2 of which have more than 2 studies cited. Second of all, imagine if you only studied the effects of aspirin on addiction. I'm assuming you'd find little to no effect. And if Examine had a list of addiction-related effects you'd also be like "look aspirin is weak, how can it suddenly be strong?". The listed effects on examine all have to do with pain relief which likely has little in common with the mechanism of action for lung cancer
> I find it extremely difficult to trust an all-Chinese research team
This is published in a (European) journal with an H-index of 255.[0] The journal is reputable so are you just asserting you can't trust Chinese scientists to study ingredients used in TCM?
> "TCM" is the invention of Mao
This is very false. Even the article you link only says Mao "heavily invested" in it. You know who else is heavily investing in traditional medicine? The World Health Organization. Which currently has a decades long plan to support and fund and increase the role that complementary medicines play in non-industrialized countries[1][2]
[0] https://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=18458&tip=sid&...
[1] https://www.who.int/health-topics/traditional-complementary-...
That's not the best argument if you are trying to debunk CCP conspiracies: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52088167
Yes, like the IPCC, WHO is also susceptible to international political pressures, but I really think if you read through their plan you'd find that it's very well-cited and fairly argued.
Obviously this should be replicated and if not replicable, should be dismissed. But it's perplexing to dismiss it out of hand because its effects weren't strong enough for an array of other totally unrelated health outcomes.
and ephedrine..
I don't put much stock in the reasons behind why a lot of TCM works, but dismissing the whole thing out of hand is folly, because essentially you are saying plants have no medicinal value and massage is a waste of time.
I would push for more scientific rigour within TCM to come up with better models of why some of this stuff works instead, which to the best of my understanding isn't even a particularly controversial statement in many TCM circles.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd1112#:~:text=In%201978%2C....
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-red-yeast-rice/...
It's a shame the origin is missing from that wikipedia page.