Think U.S. Gas Prices at $5 a Gallon Are Bad? Try $10
globelynews.com
globelynews.com
Last week I filled up with 93 octane for $6.10 per gallon. Took a ~300 mile road trip with the cruise control set at 72mph. I got passed by people driving 80+ mph every minute or two. In really large vehicles. There's really only two possible conclusions:
1. People don't realize that their driving behavior has a huge impact on their fuel economy.
2. Fuel isn't that expensive.
My car (Audi Q5) got 37 mpg. The window sticker says it should only get 28 mpg on the highway. This isn't even hypermiling - I'm speeding the entire time.
Did this roadtrip consist of large amounts of elevation loss? I just have a really hard time understanding how you bested the EPA estimates by almost 28% while cruising at 70+ MPH. I roadtrip in an Outback wagon that can manage somewhere near 30MPG if I keep my foot out of it and is a similar footprint to a Q5, if not a bit more aerodynamic.
I don't doubt that we may someday achieve more autonomous highway cruising where vehicles take 'lead' and 'follow' positions within feet of each other to benefit from drafting, but humans doing it scares me senseless.
Some high performance engines are designed to use high octane fuel, but there is no reason to use it on normal engines in normal conditions.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a28565486/honda-cr-v-v...
Which are...almost every lease I see running around, now.
Lots of cars adjust based on what's flowing in, too.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/octane-in-depth....
Each time I do the comparison I find that the cost per mile (not cost per gallon) is lower with the higher octane gas. The only time I buy 87 is if I need to fill up a rental car just before returning it.
This would be a surprising result otherwise.
If your car calls for premium and you give it regular, your diminished performance & fuel economy is also most likely wasting money. Penny-wise/Pound-foolish and all.
I've got a Germanic turbomotor, it's going to break if I look at it wrong. It calls for a minimum of 91 octane, but Costco in Illinois only has 87 and 93. So 93 it is.
This car has Audi's "energy recuperation system", which is actually a "mild hybrid" system but you'll never see those words on the website or Monroney or any advertising - "mild hybrid" has a terrible public reputation despite the fact that it works (but doesn't have much of an effect on the EPA test cycle). Almost every single Audi (and Volvo) sold in the US has this system. It is also the base model, so the tires and wheels are the base 18-inchers which weigh a LOT less than the 20+ inch wheels that everyone loves (and kill fuel economy). The transmission gear ratios are perfectly matched for the speeds I choose. I use high-quality gasoline from Costco, etc.
Go read other people on Audiworld or other forums. I'm not an outlier. These modern turbo engines are great for highway cruising, but drink fuel like it's free if you want "spirited driving".
From Audi's literature:
>While the vehicle is coasting or braking, the alternator voltage is raised above the level of the basic electrical system. During these phases the alternator can convert the vehicle’s kinetic energy into electrical energy, which is stored temporarily in the vehicle battery. When the vehicle subsequently accelerates or is driven at constant speeds, this energy is used to relieve the load on the alternator, allowing a fuel saving of up to 3%, depending on the driving cycle.
I am fully aware of how efficient a modern turbo engine can be, and perhaps you did, in fact, best the EPA estimates. Did you calculate these numbers yourself, or rely on the onboard computer?
That's fine, we don't have to call it a mild hybrid. But whatever you want to call it, it's working really well on my car. It only has about 7k miles on it, but the efficiency keeps getting better as it breaks-in. I have to imagine that this is probably as good as it will get.
Let me ask you something, though: if I went back and edited the original post to say 30 mpg, would you agree that how someone drives makes a huge difference in their fuel costs. Because that was my main point :)
I was just kind of blown away by the claim. Not that long ago, high 30's MPG on the highway was the domain of economy cars (think Corolla's and the like) and euro diesel cars. To hear that a gasoline SUV, albeit a smaller one, could be close to 40MPG on the highway made me skeptical and curious of how it was achieved.
My A6 wagon gets about 10mpg on the highway better than my in-laws Outback, and I assume this was a large portion of the reason.
If you put it in cruise and don't go fast I can hit just under 40 - but I've only had it for a couple months. This is for a 21/28 rated vehicle. Forum posts seem to validate this as well.
City driving it's exactly what you'd expect - couple miles under EPA estimates.
Edit: this is manually calculated, but with a sample size of one. Strangely the onboard computer seems to underestimate in this vehicle, which is the exact opposite of every other car I've driven. Probably the most unexpected bit of owning this car so far.
The country has made great progress in terms of fuel economy. But the most popular vehicles sold in the USA (full sized pickups) still get like 18MPG. The majority of efficiency gains go into making them larger and more powerful, because there's no economic incentives to make trucks with the size and capability of 90s era trucks, but with double+ the fuel economy. Ford was at least able to be forward-looking and release the Maverick, a small hybrid pickup, at exactly the right time.
Which is perfectly rational. Why drive a car you don't want out of fear that gas prices may someday go up?
The real solution is crank gas taxes up so high that the little people are forced to buy little cars or take the bus, like we think they ought to be doing.
You don't have to buy a fuel efficient car today for an eventuality that may never happen, but you definitely don't have a leg to stand on when fuel gets more expensive and it suddenly costs you 10x more per month in fuel -- that's on (hypothetical) you.
Alas, that will never happen in the US, but one can dream.
It’s more likely to entrench them, along with build popular support for slashing a lot of climate regulations. Humans don’t like fast change. Trying to force it usually backfires.
And that, there, is the problem. Everywhere in the US is designed, often in legally-enforceable ways, to ensure that cars are prioritized over everything else.
The chicken-egg explanation is a normal consequence of not having anticipated the consequences when urban planning for car travel got going in the 50s. Unfortunate as it may be, but it's catch-22 that can be broken out of.
The unwillingness to break out of it, is because of the fetishization of car technology. This is a completely pathetic for adults to do, and is this toddler-mindset which is the biggest impediment to meaningful change today.
Careful tossing that first stone. This is Hacker News. Surely most people here have made some technology purchasing choices moreso for coolness than for practicality. Cars are simply one particular sort of technology.
We don't have transit for a number of reasons, one is that everything would have to be torn up and rebuilt for high speed rail. Two we have a much lower trust society than places like Europe and Japan. Three it's just so unprofitable and people dislike it so much it never gets funding.
And personally I don't want to be stuck in a bus, train etc. with a bunch of strangers. I prefer the freedom of my personal vehicle.
Oregon is larger than the United Kingdom.
Texas is larger than France.
Alaska is larger than all of Western Europe.
People live in New York City. It's in the US. Those people tend to drive a lot less than those living in, say, Los Angeles—who also unambiguously live in the US. Why?
Yes. Except that I'm not "suggesting" it. I'm stating it as a fact.
Note that "Europe" is also defined by an "arbitrarily-chosen border".
> I prefer the freedom of my personal vehicle.
You're not at odds with each other, allowing multiple methods of transit doesn't encroach on your freedom to drive a car.
What did we do instead? Occupied countries with nothing to show for it, engaged in futile trade wars and allowed financial speculation in everything we produce.
Gas would have to become ludicrously expensive in order for me to make the choice to forfeit so much of my day to commuting. It would be ideal if the city I live in expands the light rail system but that's a decades long process.
Private automobiles aren't a bugfix on urban planning, as someone posted to Mastodon recently, they're the determining cause of sprawl patterns. Personal vehicles, cheap fuel, and high-quality uncongested roads cheapen distance and through the Jevons Paradox increase the amount of space used.
https://mastodon.social/@CarlMuckenhoupt/108465959449696924
Light rail works great ... in reasonably dense urban environments and downtowns. If you have to walk only a few blocks to and from your boarding and disembarking points, they're great. Multi-link travel with transfers and delays is abysmal.
LRT also benefits heavily from dedicated rights of way, no roadway contention from other vehicles, traffic signals optimisation, and the rest.
And a single LRV can replace 40 -- 150+ vehicles on the road, depending on fill capacity.
Here's hoping gas prices will fall rapidly so the less fortunate among us can afford to heat their homes next winter.
Here's hoping gas prices will fall rapidly so that the less fortunate among us can afford the rapid rising food prices that are the result of energy costs.
High gas / diesel prices mean your cost of goods is going to keep going up because cities don't produce anything they consume. Just because this is acceptable to most people on this board's income doesn't mean its a good thing in any way.
It is something like a factor 1.5 to get to my parents and over 2 to my grandparents, much more if they can't pick me up and I have to walk the last 3 miles[0] from the bus stop. I don't know what the multiplier is to my brother, but it is likely to be quite high.
[0]: it can be done, it just takes quite some time.
Current inflation is slowing bringing these commodities in line with the historical baseline that other countries have always experienced. Americans have been spoiled for a long time.
> In general, gas is cheapest in countries that are net exporters of crude oil and refined oil products. These countries have surplus oil production that they can export and provide gas to their domestic markets at below-market, heavily subsidized costs.
This suggests the U.S. recently went from being a net exporter to an importer, and I think that was done during this administration. It's no secret they are pushing for more green energy, and doing so by decreasing existing gas and oil production.
This is the natural result of believing combustion engines are a huge problem for the environment. Of course we need to stop using it, so higher prices is good because people won't use it as much. Unfortunately it's a drastic change and it's affecting everything because there really is no proper alternative. The end result is that it hurts poor people the most.
Looking at the data [1], that's probably not the reason. Sanctions on Russia, combined with the outlook of lower demand in the future, make short-term investments in increased production capacities unfeasible: [2]
> the biggest firms have so far stuck with investment plans forged before prices really soared, choosing to put the windfalls primarily toward shareholder payouts, rather than extra production.
> Investors are pushing companies to share profits now, instead of making long term investments, given uncertainty over demand as the world pushes to shift away from fossil fuels
[1] https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61446317
I think this is an easy statement to substantiate, and I believe it'd set a foundation as it derails to a moot point the moment a conclusion is derived from your own speculation.
I think media literacy is incredibly hard; and if he didn't throw in "by this administration", I wouldn't have been as skeptical of his claim either (not because I'm a Biden loyalist, but because any time anyone tries to pin a market effect on the president I'm immediately skeptical).
For what it's worth Biden has done little of the sort. I think it's important to differentiate the media circus around AOC's wishful policies, like the green new deal, and what Biden has actually implemented.
1. The number of oil drilling/fracking permits has actually increased under Biden (despite him campaigning on banning them)[1]
2. The only "green" EO biden has passed thus far EO 14057, only mandates reaching carbon neutrality by 2035 and largely does so by buying electric vehicles.[2]
3. The rest of his energy related EOs are about sanctioning russia.
Meanwhile congress has pretty much been toothless when it has come to green energy initiatives. While both major media parties make a lot of noise to make it seem like the democrats are doing something about energy, to the dismay of those of us who actually care, nothing has actually materially passed.
I wish I could blame Biden for rising energy prices due to green technology; at least we would be getting something in return for $5 gas.
To my earlier point, unless you can show me what those policies are, and when they passed in congress, you are just speculating. It's one thing to say the Biden is focused on green energy. To say that's the cause of our current energy woes you have to be able to point to specific EOs are laws passed that would support such a claim. AFAICT, the democrats have pretty much squandered their majority in congress with little to show for it.
[1] https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/new-da... [2] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/12/13/2021-27...
I don't know about that. It's hard to tell how much influence the hard left has on Biden, but it's not negligible. There is this letter by the senators explaining some of the problems:
https://www.cruz.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cruz-sen...
> NMFS’s permitting delays represent one example of the Administration’s de facto ban on new drilling – impeding domestic oil and gas investment, exploration, and production.
> The letter notes that the delays are principally due to “three administration-made and admitted mistakes” caused by mathematic errors in calculating the number of endangered species in the Gulf of Mexico in a 2021...
And then Biden has made it clear this administration is pursuing ambitious goals that have to do with transitioning away from fossil fuels. https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1528712761554903040
I think at least there is incentive to decrease fossil fuels and move more quickly to renewable, and it worries me because nuclear is not a popular option.
Even the letter betrays your point by calling the ban a "de-facto" ban. Ted Cruz is playing with words here because he knows there no official ban but he can blame any sort of organizational mishap on a perception of a delay due to effective media propoganda. And again, this tone of this letter doesn't match the data; Biden is issuing _more_ permits than Trump did.
>And then Biden has made it clear this administration is pursuing ambitious goals
He also campaigned profusely on eliminating student debt and a $15/wage that were wildly popular among his base. 2 years in and he has accomplished naught and has actively renegaded on those campaign promises. I trust that you would find it incredulous if someone told you that businesses were raising their prices because Biden put in a $15 min wage, when clearly that hasn't happened.
Chest thumping at the pulpit isn't policy. And if he hasn't enacted policy, that you can point to, then any explanation you might have is baseless speculation.
The shift has not happened, there are no policies in place coming from the Executive or Legislative branches of US government doing any pressure on the market prices.
Please, read the arguments presented with supporting evidence from other comments and get off from this stubborn position that is only based on your assumptions and biases...
> Total petroleum net exports were about 0.16 million b/d in 2021, and total petroleum net exports in 2020 were 0.63 million b/d.
We also import a lot of oil, because the nation is enormous and consists of multiple markets. But we are importing less than we were 10-20 years ago. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
Whether the balance is slightly above or below zero cannot be all that important.
Those NGLs are sold for other uses, and in particular, for mixing with heavy tar crudes (as from Venezuela) or tar-sands oil (Canada) to improve flow qualities and lower the net weight of those fuels.
(I wish I was joking - we are going to be hearing that excuse for the next decade)
American energy production has only inched up because executives fear that oil and gas prices won’t stay high.
Now the Fed is pushing the economy into recession (lower demand) and high oil prices are policy-driven (Russia sanctions), mostly from displaced supply. Investing heavily in this environment is risky.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-politics-business-...
We produce more barrels of oil today than in the previous administration. Granted, it's a marginal amount more on a daily basis, but it's still more, and by quite a bit over the year. We have actually seen nothing but upticks in oil production in the US since the Obama admin. Not because the Obama admin encouraged it, but because the world price of a barrel of oil became high enough to warrant exploiting harder to reach and extract oil deposits.
So, it is just normal that the gas that was around $2-3, today - $7+. Thus the gas isn't "expensive", it is in-line with everything else, and thus wouldn't drastically change any behavior. Giving the instabilities, it wouldn't be surprising to see $10-15 gas.
https://www.shell.dk/priser-pa-benzin-og-diesel.html
People are still driving (also in cars) ...
Are they? On my drive(s) today, there were plenty of fuel-inefficient trucks driving like bats out of hell!
They’re going to get real mad when they do and find out what it’s like because none of us (in aggregate) seem to care enough to make sure public transit funded. And city/suburb design often makes walking/biking impractical/dangerous/impossible.
I presume not given Telsa recent layoffs.
Granted, we're looking to buy because old EV, not gas prices. But whatever your reason for wanting one, good luck.
Gas today typically contains 10% bioethanol, and that number is expected to increase in the future. The goal is to burn less fossil fuel, which is a good thing.
Problem is: bioethanol often comes from sugar beet or cane, we literally run our cars on processed food. For Diesel, it is typically mixed with vegetable oil, again, burning food.
There is hope that one day, we will be able to make biofuel in a way that don't compete with food production, but we are not there yet. There are some successful experiments, but nothing at scale.
The sanctions on Russia are only just getting started.
With new car sales in Russia down over 80% in May, the pressure will increase the prices of used cars.
One way or another, Russians are paying for the barbarity of their countrymen, and the price they pay will only continue to get higher.
Yes please - just keep that narrative up. Especially anti-energy Democrats. Please do continue to believe and shill that message. I'll even help you spread it :)
High gas prices are great if you own a few oil refineries. Or if you have shorted the market in an expectation of a recession. Or if you own Tesla.
There is no reason the US should not be completely energy independent. There is plenty of oil to drill, if the democrats would allow it.
https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/new-da...
And the Keystone Pipeline was shutdown by executive order.
High oil prices do push consumers to choose more efficient vehicles. They also benefit the US by sending way less money to countries that want to harm us - especially Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.
The charging time will likely also go down further which could allow for the batteries to become smaller for most use cases and thus the price come down even more.
And on top of that, if energy prices continue to stay high, the SUV/Truck era might slowly die away and smaller/lighter/aerodynamic cars with better mileage will become the norm. Less metal and smaller motor needed means cheaper car.