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Comment by woodruffw | Hacker News Reader

This is a particularly absurd example, but more subtle versions of this policy show up in many large police departments. For example, the NYPD requires half of a college degree at a rock-bottom GPA[1], and has been agitating for the current mayor (himself an ex-cop) to drop even that requirement[2].

Edit: I forgot to mention that two years of military service also exempts prospective cops from needing half of a college degree.

[1]: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-hi...

[2]: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/new-york-elections...

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It shouldn’t require a college degree. They should have some concrete notion of the requirements and how to test for them.

I’m not aware of any European country that requires police officers to have a degree but they all have much longer training periods than is normal in the US. If I recall correctly in both Germany and Ireland at least take three years before you’re basically tenured and can only be fired for gross misconduct.

Czech Republic does require a degree since early 2000s. Back then I had a few classmates who were cops and went to college to satisfy the new requirement.

I support this.

Sweden doesn't require a degree, but training is 3 years and a 'degree' from the a police school is considered equivalent to a bachelors degree. All the academic courses (law, sociology, criminology etc.) you take give 'real' academic credits that you can transfer if you for example want to apply to study for a different academic degree later.

Same in Finland. All police officers go to the Police University College, which counts as a University of Applied Sciences, just like engineering schools.

Same in Norway. I suspect the remaining Nordic state is similar.

Lithuania requires two-year academy for beat cops and 4-year bachelor's (specific programme, with law and social studies as basis) for detectives and such. I think (but not certain) special investigation units require master's in law as well.

What’s a “special investigation unit?”

Something like FBI in US, people who investigate government corruption, organized crime, national security threats, etc.

The UK has an apprenticeship scheme where police officers gain a degree whilst learning to do the job.

> This is a particularly absurd example,

It _sounds_ like a particularly absurd example, but I do not have an in-depth understanding of the court case, the evidence, the department policies, and the law that lead to this verdict. These days I withhold judgement.

> but more subtle versions of this policy show up in many large police departments. For example, the NYPD requires half of a college degree at a rock-bottom GPA[1], and has been agitating for the current mayor (himself an ex-cop) to drop even that requirement[2].

I don't see the similarity. That looks like a minimum, not a "maximum" requirement.

I also don't see why a college degree should be required of a police officer at all. They should be able to get training on the job. A college degree (or part of one) requirement inflates degrees and excludes people with disadvantaged backgrounds who are likely to have grown up in and connections with communities most impacted by crime, and it probably doesn't select for important qualities, in my opinion. Although that's another story and I don't really have evidence for that belief.

I disagree, you highlight a bunch of issues with your university system and then use them to say that police shouldn't need college education. Do you feel the same way about lawyers?

Personally I think the people that actually enforce the law should be some of the most educated on the topic and the justice system, much of which is far too in depth to learn while also being a full time police offer.

The most obvious solution is for police to have degrees in criminal justice or law (as in some non-US countries).

EDIT: reworded for clarity

> Do you feel the same way about lawyers?

No. Do you feel the same way about plumbers?

> Personally I think the people that actually enforce the law should be some of the most educated on the topic and the justice system, much of which is far too in depth to learn while also being a full time police offer.

I disagree. I think they should be well versed in peoples' rights, and the common types of crimes they encounter as part of their job (which is a tiny slice of the justice system -- contract law or securities fraud is not something a beat cop is going to encounter).

The law part of it is actually the least important (or easiest) part of the job in my opinion, if you're talking what people usually think of as a "cop". Having empathy, good personal and communication skills, learning how to project authority and confidence, also de-escalation techniques, learning about mental illness and how to deal with sufferers, first aid skills, etc etc. (and that's before we even get to physically restraining people and defending themselves) -- are all more important than a rigorous knowledge of the legal system.

> Do you feel the same way about plumbers? Obviously plumbers don't enforce the law, manage evidence, write legal documents or have legal authority over others. If you can't see the difference in power dynamics between a police officer or lawyer and a member of the public I cant help you.

You're making my point for me, of course police need all of the skills you have listed (except maybe 'how to project authority', whatever that means). All of these skills should be taught to them by other police, while they are learning the job.

They also must know the extent to which they are allowed to use their authority, the situations in which they can use lethal force, the appropriate evidentiary and legal processes for taking a case to court. If they learn this on the job then they are risking making process mistakes, or falsely enforcing the law, or breaching rules of evidence, all on real members of the public. They should be educated in all of these things and the limitations of their power BEFORE they have access to that power.

Education in Justice is not going be focused on contract law, and I reject the assertion that a beat cop doesn't need to know anything about securities fraud. You don't jump in at detective, most police are going to start working the streets and then move to different roles.

In the US, many police do have law degrees. It’s practically required if you want to be an FBI Agent.

Honestly I don’t think police need to be well versed in bankruptcy law, contract law, arbitration law, corporate law, tax law, or all the other types of law lawyers learn.

> They should be able to get training on the job.

I'd agree if it completing classes before stepping out on the street with a badge, not learning while doing actual policing

That's why you pair them with an experienced mentor instead of just giving them a badge and gun and letting them loose on the streets.

Where I am all you need is a GED or high school diploma and no felonies. They do drug test, but I'm told you're informed in advance.

You and Chicago (unless you also live in Chicago!)[1].

[1]: https://news.wttw.com/2022/03/10/police-drop-college-credit-...

Similar in some ways, but no, just the south.

Yeah I can't see why being a street cop needs a college education. Note I'm not saying there should not be some aptitude and psychological screening. But I think plenty of people who didn't go to college could be good cops.

In my ideal world, the official Law Enforcement Officer should have a good understanding of their legal system. I'll agree with you that college isn't the only way to get that understanding.

I mean, is it even a useful way? Unless you major in pre-law, you aren't going to know more about the legal system than you got from high school civics.

If you want to be a detective you might value the post highschool education. Out of the ones I've known, they tend to have a criminal justice degree. They drive different vehicles, interact with people in different contexts, and may have different pay grades.

Many (perhaps most) police departments require new cadets to be patrol officers for N years prior to being promoted to Detective. Once promoted to the equivalent rank, you still need an opening on a unit and it can be competitive from what I gather.

That makes sense. I'm not sure that on-the-road experience can be taught in class, same for most things.

You're right, I assumed way too much when I made my comment. Mea Culpa.

In Sweden you have to go to 'cop college' to become a cop. A 3 year practical and academic program (including at least 6 month on the job training) that teaches you how to be a cop. You cannot just show up with a random college degree and decide to be a cop.

I don't fundamentally disagree with this position, but I do feel the level and types of training a US LEO should go through (yes, I suggest a Federal standard) should be completely different from the mess now.

The training and discipline of the Met in the UK the JNI of Japan or the German Police all are both less prone to misbehavior and more effective. Frankly, we could learn a lot from elsewhere: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/06/am... (we won't, but we could)

And speaking of the MET in the UK they are arguably the worse force in the UK if you're talking about scandals and bad policing.

I can't think of a single Police force these days free of scandal, but the Met, for all its issues, still is the father of modern police/detective work, with clearance rates and auditability still near the top of any list.

...and I'm a yank saying this, not a particular fan of the Met/Scotland Yard given they don't handle my neighborhood, which is known for its exceptionally bumbling poltroons for police.

Why would a beat cop need any sort of college education?

Because enforcing the law requires some minimum understanding of the law and criminal justice. It's pretty clear the current requirements aren't meeting that minimum.

I doubt a college degree requirement would change that. The vast majority of policing is taught on the job, and experience counts for more that formal education.

> The vast majority of policing is taught on the job,

Translation: "Your average police officer has absolutely no knowledge of the law."

How can you possibly learn what the law says on the job?

Incorrect translation.

Is half of a college degree an Associate’s or one year of college?

Half a college degree is two years of credits. That may or may not be an associates degree.

Generally, if a student in a four year program drops out at two years, they get nothing.

But they could enroll in a two year program, and if their credits transfer graduate in a year.

Few colleges (including two year) will offer a degree with less than a year of study, even with transfer credits.

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