It sounds like a lot of work to build that though.
Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value? They could use it for other stuff too if they want.
It sounds like a lot of work to build that though.
Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value? They could use it for other stuff too if they want.
Government run then, the institution that is involved with contract oversight here, an easily identifiable authority in this situation. If you don't trust that here, then there's no point in bothering with sales contracts in the first place.
> It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise access controls. Also, it should be as fast as possible, and there should be a record of everything that's ever changed. If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time.
So like a database with auditing switched on? The type that is already run all over the world for all sorts of things?
> If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time.
Like a database that offloads snapshots every so often? And maybe has an API in front of it allowing querying of public data? Like are run ... everywhere? For all sorts of things already?
> It sounds like a lot of work to build that though.
I mean, it sounds exactly like a ton of running systems with fairly standard options, so no, it seems like it would be fairly trivial.
And of course we all know that there are no development costs for blockchain solutions. Nobody needs to build a webpage, or develop smart contracts, or security audit them, or build in permission systems so there can be authority oversight, or provide APIs, no, they all just appear fully formed and fully secure out of the ether... no boring 'work' to build that!
"Blockchain gives you that for free" must be one of the biggest fallacies out there.
> Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value?
Doesn't sound to me like we need to give these 'nerds' a continuing stake in a public service. Any old software company can build that sort of thing out for you for a one-off fee. Adding profit motives for unrelated third parties seems to me like a pretty poor choice. But what do I know, perhaps we should introduce more avenues for speculation around the housing market, that sounds healthy.
I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs.
I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer.
I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country.
If I routinely saw the government creating new technology that improved the lives of citizens, I suspect I would share your opinion.
It would be interesting to map "places interested in crypto" against "places that have low trust in their government" and what kind of overlap there is.
The way I see technology in the US: First, the nerds get excited and start forming groups about it. Then, the business people figure out how to monetize it. Eventually, the government gets sold an overpriced enterprise solution. Then we do it all over again.
Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would.
That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail.
If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don't seem to think so), the problem isn't that the data storage medium isn't decentralised, or that there's too much trust in the system, it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks. Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. The gains come from modernising the system, not the storage tech.
I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record.
> it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks
Of course, but so much of that bureaucracy is about being risk-adverse. I really do have to take my shoes off at the airport because somebody tried to wear explosive shoes once, about 20 years ago.
So, yes it's the "ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks", but that doesn't really address what's going on. Our governments will easily adopt new technologies when they're simple.
If minting officially signed records is as cheap and easy on-chain as it looks like it's going to be, it would be silly not to use the technology, even if you think government should have been the entity to build and maintain it.
> Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that.
This whole class of technology precisely addresses that.
It removes the "who has to build and maintain this DB and keep access to it forever" step, which is pretty significant for important records.
Literal teenagers can buy and sell pictures of apes easier than I can prove to a mortgage company that I own my residence. Something isn't right there, and I don't think it's the children and their fancy record keeping that's wrong.
When the intern at a county clerk's office somewhere in the middle of the country says "hey boss, let's mint NFTs for these records, it costs about a penny each and I can set up the computer to do it as a summer project", that's about the threshold we need for widespread local government adoption.
And if governments ordering security theatre at airports is relevant to their ability to administer property then I've got bad news for you about the track record of people working on building important stuff on blockchains. Difference is they have no need to be involved in property transactions whatsoever, whereas when it comes to enforcing property rights you're stuck with government being involved anyway.
> I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record.
No, I haven't overlooked this at all, in fact it's bang on with what I'm trying to get you to understand - that pulling a record can be made faster with a better system, yes. But for some reason you're insisting that only a blockchain can fix that, which is just nonsense.
> If minting officially signed records is as cheap and easy on-chain as it looks like it's going to be, it would be silly not to use the technology, even if you think government should have been the entity to build and maintain it.
You're glossing over the massive effort to bring such a system into place for the land registry in the first place, and reducing the entire problem to record signing. The signing of a record is the most trivial part of the problem. In a DB-driven centralised solution it would be actually free.
So I'll repeat myself here - you're trying to address a bureaucratic issue with a data structure, you're choosing one data storage scheme over another as if that makes the difference, when the difference that leads to the speed gains in the proposal is legislative change and modernisation, not a specific storage scheme.
> It removes the "who has to build and maintain this DB and keep access to it forever" step
It does no such thing, as the data structures and smart contracts specific to land registration will still have to be created, and updated as needs change over time, the human-usable interfaces to those will still have to be created, probably involving API servers and web UIs in the exact same way as any other solution. Someone has to build all this. Someone has to run the infrastructure regardless, and those people will want paying somehow. The fact you can abstract some parts of it away through a blockchain doesn't remove the need for that payment, perhaps in the form of transaction fees, for instance, or rent seeking on these tokens you mentioned earlier.
> Literal teenagers can buy and sell pictures of apes easier than I can prove to a mortgage company that I own my residence.
Umm, so? I mean, Ape pictures are again, trivial, land registries are not, and the proof you want could be an entry in a land registry database just as easily as it could be an NFT. (As it could be for that ape picture, and as it usually more or less is anyway, due to centralisation of API-provision...)
> When the intern at a county clerk's office somewhere in the middle of the country says "hey boss, let's mint NFTs for these records, it costs about a penny each and I can set up the computer to do it as a summer project", that's about the threshold we need for widespread local government adoption.
And that intern is going to know how to implement all the smart contracts around property transfer correctly, taking into account all the legal regulations, edge cases, boundary definitions (and disputes), court system oversight and the million and one other things that are implicit in that proposition?
Seriously? You genuinely think the hardest and most complicated part of transfer of property ownership is the bit where you need to sign a record?
Because that's all you're talking about solving here, and even that isn't something a blockchain solution can do any more easily than any other solution.
All of the benefits of moving to a blockchain that you list are possible, probably with lesser effort and lower complexity, using other systems. None of it is because of blockchains, all of it is process modernisation that you feel you can just gloss over because blockchain.
Your argument is akin to being anti-Twitter because the local government could build a notification system just as well. Maybe San Francisco could, but most of America cannot.
Twitter's core function is that it lets you send and receive short messages. That's absolutely great for a local government office, but it didn't make enough sense for any local government to invent Twitter. That's not the job of local government.
The value here is in the network effect of agreed upon protocols between interested parties.
If parties agree on data sharing protocols, which is something we've all been talking about forever, then the network gains value.
> we can transact using an on-chain NFT that grants the equivalent of ownership rights to the house
He's literally talking about ownership rights tokenized for convenient settlement with a governance layer that can be overridden by officials. I think that's a fine idea to try out. It will probably reduce friction most of the time.
> you can just gloss over because blockchain
The idea is that a universally trusted, always-on database allows you to build new types of applications. This seems obvious to me.
I was listening to NPR a while ago and they had story on about governments that paid for ransomware attacks so they could access critical records. That's where we're at today.
All networks are hard to get off the ground. If you can't tell, I was a fan of the "semantic web" idea. I feel like this time it's going to work because there's a money-layer built into it.
Not really, they could all deploy the same DB solution, we could open source it and containerise it and give it away for free. It could be run as a managed service for a small fee. There's no need for each local government to design their own or even run their own.
Exactly the same as with a blockchain solution.
> Your argument is akin to being anti-Twitter because the local government could build a notification system just as well
My argument is not in the least bit akin to being anti-twitter. My argument is more like saying twitter is possible with multiple different back-ends, conceptually. I'm saying look, your short message service can be implemented in a bunch of different ways - in the back end it could run on a NoSQL server of some sort, or some sort of RDBMS, of which there are many, or we could probably mash something up with SQLite to get off the ground. The important thing that's addressing the need is to build a short message service.
In contrast you're there insisting that only an MSSQL system will enable twitter. But with MSSQL we get archiving for free! And with MSSQL we can just UPDATE a record and it will be changed! Huh, how about that?! Nobody else can do that!
And I'm here scratching my head and saying that's just an implementation detail, sure, it could work, there will be license fees etc, but it's not the only way, and we still need to do the rest of the work.
> If parties agree on data sharing protocols, which is something we've all been talking about forever, then the network gains value.
Yep. And those protocols are still going to have to be designed and deployed by someone, a blockchain solution doesn't magic these into existence any more than any other solution does. APIs and UIs will still have to be built. Data schemas will still have to be defined. It doesn't reduce engineering effort.
> He's literally talking about ownership rights tokenized for convenient settlement with a governance layer that can be overridden by officials.
Sure, and maybe it would work great, but that doesn't require a blockchain either, it doesn't need to be an NFT on a public blockchain to provide that low-friction experience.
Throwing 'blockchain' at a massively complex situation doesn't solve anything in and of itself. It seems to me that saying 'blockchain' allows its proponents to mentally skip to the end of the process, where the value actually comes from one of the early or middle steps.
Step 1: Figure out how to encapsulate land registry records in a simple but comprehensive way
Step 2: Make legislative changes such that these records are now the source of truth
Step 3: Expose these records in an easily digestible and transferable way
"Blockchain" is part of one of several solutions to step 3. That's literally all it is in that picture.(edit/addendum - > If you can't tell, I was a fan of the "semantic web" idea.
I always found that really naive, perhaps I just never understood it, but it seemed to rely on honest actors categorising their content in ways that would allow it to be retrieved, catalogued and processed correctly, then presented to users. Some of the professors at my University, Southampton, were well into it. Even back in the late 90s I was jaded enough to know that anything relying on people to be honest and not use all sorts of SEO tricks to game the system was doomed. I know there was more to it than that, and some of its ideas did filter into the modern web in various ways.)
If you think a government bureaucrat or judge will trust a blockchain because "proof of X" when a dispute does happen, you've got some weirdly conflicting beliefs about government. Furthermore, if you think they would trust it more because it's public then they would trust a DB that, say, Price Waterhouse Coopers were running that any county clerk could sign in to with an audited account and put some information in, then again I really don't understand what is your mental picture of the government.
However you slice it, the fact remains that, if there is ever a dispute on the ownership of your property, the government will want to consult an official paper trail of how that ownership came about. The more layers of abstraction you add, the more places your trail could be attacked, the longer it will take to do it, the more expensive experts will have to be hired for the trial and so on.
Permissionless databases also lend themselves well to a kind of DoS attacks, where someone can trivially bury the real data in mountains of low-effort fake data (perhaps with some high-effort fakes thrown in as well). If the county clerk's intern can mint an NFT for each house in the real registry, I can easily mint 100,000,000 fake NFTs for the same houses as well - good luck disputing the ownership then if your house purchase wasn't registered in the paper registry.
A permissioned DB run by a trusted entity (which could easily be some company, even though I hate that this is what usually happens, and would much rather see the government handling internally) that is responsible for auditing who has access to modify the digital registry and so on is the only possible solution for improving the bureaucracy of this. And even then, it will only improve it so much, since you will still need to send documents that prove you are who you say you are, and the other party is who they say they are, and you both agreed to the contract that made this transfer possible. Of course, much of this can also be fixed by using a government-certified digital certificate proving your identity (this is a common service in the EU at least).
Was that before or after listening to NPR and their story about private companies that paid for ransomeware attacks (https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1003972313, many many others)?
You, and every other crypto bro vastly underestimates the scale at which local government operates. And the scale here means not "number of transactions per second", but "number of edge cases that need to be handled on a daily basis."
Some time ago I was in a conversation about how blockchain is going to solve everything around property registrations. Blockchain is just a slow distributed database that solves jack shit on its own, of course.
Here are some simple examples that land registries have to deal with: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564
Good luck to you and your summer intern minting NFTs for that. And that's before we go into the whole definition of ownership https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681
Besides replacing it with tech bros and crypto douchebags doesn't seem like much of an improvement.
If anything (at the risk of sounding extra American), these threads remind me that the US is still the place to be if you want to build something different.
There's a positive side to how the US works too. The few things we really commit to, like building our military, we really are the best at. Also, the lax regulation does let new technologies like driverless cars get tested on open roads. Hurray? I think so.
Somewhere has to be the test-bed for new ideas. When they fail, they'll be expensive and stupid and maybe even stick around for a lot longer than they should (can we please, please, fix the shoes thing with the TSA?). But all together, we do a lot of cool stuff first that changes the world.
Interesting, because recently the USA exited Bloomberg's top 10 innovative countries, while if I remember correctly 7/10 where European countries [0]. Sorry guys, you can't stay on top forever.
[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-03/south-kor...
Governments, by design, are the most dangerous institution we have. In the 20th century they were a leading cause of death. Between the wars and communist policy a lot of people died. Fear of government is entirely sensible, we're more likely to be killed by a government than any serial killer.
And we don't know what the big wars of the 21st century will look like, but we may be about to find out.
You need something that's going to help you solve disputes and enforce contracts. If the government isn't competent or your enemy for arbitrary reasons, they'll just ignore any evidence you can point at and do whatever they want to anyway.