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Comment by blaydator | Hacker News Reader

Near Albi, Tarn, France, (1h from) Toulouse. Working remotely as a SWE. Balancing between two extremes, growing veggies and coding. Had to install a 4g antennas works like a charm. Countryside in France is cheap, not to remote (5min from bakery, market, college), 15min from coworking Space (once a week to see friends), friendly neighbors, living my dream. Move here 2 years ago with my wife and new born. We made friends, bought a farm with 2ha. My quality of life is amazing. Please ama if inspired or investigating France !

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Also French, did the same thing (albeit in the Alps rather than the south :) after being very burned out living in a tiny San Francisco apartment during Covid, post LTR breakup.

Huge boost for my mental health - I can go for beautiful walks anytime I want, the local village has a huge sense of community, I've been spending more time with my family (which I'd neglected while building my career abroad over the last 15 years), the food is so tasty and all local, I'm very close (~30 min drive) to mid sized cities, and my cost of living necessities is not even 1k euro a month...

The one downside is that dating is pretty close to impossible. Pretty much anyone over the age of 25 has kids, and it's not in tiny mountain villages that you'll find people who are into the same kind of nerdy multicultural things that you are. (the postwoman is pretty cute but huh that seems like a bad idea). I've been back in the bay area for work since, but turns out "I spend most of my time on a farm in rural Europe" is a turnoff for city people, YMMV.

So definitely do it after you're partnered, if that matters to you.

How did immigration work for you?

Any blog about your buy experience?

Any Tipps?

> did the same thing

Are you doing both SWE job and farming, as the OP? If so, how do find time for walks etc.? I imagine farming itself is very time-intesive activity.

Same as with everything in life, we never have enough time, so you get help from others, and you make sure to make time for what you want to do.

I guess I won't starve if my beans don't make it, which is a nice privilege for sure.

Also not having kids helps a lot with remaining master of your time and energy :)

I moved out to “pays de mont blanc” after similar reasons (covid and burnout) tho I had more walking and cycling in mind than farming.

Great local produce and strong farming culture. My neighbours have been here for generations.

> the postwoman is pretty cute but huh that seems like a bad idea

I think you mean seems like a very cute romantic comedy!

Thanks for sharing this. Ive been living in a tiny 350 sqft apartment in palo alto for the entire pandemic alone after a long term relationship (15 years). I think i need this kind of change. $1k euro sounds nice. With my car lease and food prices I am burning 3.5k per month on top of rent. I just work for myself on a computer. I don’t have an EU passport but surely I could find somewhere similar in north america

palo alto is an extreme environment.. surely the readers have to know that

I have to agree with this statement. Born and raised in the bay area and unless you are contractually required, there are far better places to live than the valley. Find a place that you enjoy and travel in for meetings. You'll save a ton of money and bypass the majority of forgettable distractions that lure you in. Austin blew up during the pandemic, but I hear good things about Columbus and Louisville. Now is the best time to find your work/life balance in the back of beyond.

I’ve been here in Columbus since 2008 and it is nice place to raise a family. It’s a nice cost of living and us plenty to do. I’m on 5 acres just 20 minutes outside of the city. It’s a wonderful environment where I WFH from an RV that I purchased in 2014 that was sitting idle outside of my house pretty much all year. I got into adult ice hockey in 2015 which supplements some competitive activity as well as cardio. I am afraid that with the new chip plant that Intel is dropping here that cost of living will be driven up. I’m sure there will be many more things to do as this place fills out even more. There are plenty of corn fields that are being developed into housing, retail shopping and commercial distribution centers.

TBH if you cannot or don’t want to live on the east or west coast in the US, should you stay in the US? as a european i have asked myself this question many times. anywhere else in the US and you do not have the locality/availability of services as it exists in europe.

I am originally Canadian so have thought more about going back there. I’ll have to think about it some more.

I can totally relate to your lifestyle!

Totally agree, partner before.

Tarn is pretty young and dynamic though, lots of associations (permaculture, ecology, etc..).

Yes, that's one thing that surprised me, as someone who mostly grew up in a large french city and then left the country altogether during my university years - I had this image of the more rural areas as being completely dead - but like you say, tons of young local associations doing awesome things and cultural life going on.

I'm surprised that most of my neighbors in my 1800 people village are relatively young (30s/40s) with kids, again I had this image that it would only be old farmers.

Possible to chat more? Am writing regularly about returning to humanity (example: https://backtohumanity.substack.com/p/the-need-for-new-commu...). Could you send me an email: daosalon /a--t/ protonmail?

> the postwoman is pretty cute but huh that seems like a bad idea

That's a Curb Your Enthusiasm plot. Beware if you want to reset the relationship!

where in the alps?

Hui you did exactly what we are currently trying to do.

I'm from Germany and France countryside is so much cheaper than anything in Germany, looks nice and they have great food.

I also want to work remote and actually can.

Do you have more to share? Blog? Email? Are you from France?

Any knowledge on building code?

Did you check future proves like water table?

> Do you have more to share? Blog? Email? Are you from France?

Sorry no blog. Email in my profile, we can have a zoom.

> Any knowledge on building code?

I am a developper since 10 years.

> Did you check future proves like water table?

I did my research, looks ok to me. Long topic.. Got a well and 8m3 of buried tank currently, planning to build 10m3 more. But I am not a prepper.

Think they meant “building codes” as in “what are you legally allowed to build on your own land”. Laws governing structures and how they are constructed.

I would also like to chat, but I don't see your email in your profile. I'm writing regularly about returning to humanity (example: https://backtohumanity.substack.com/p/the-need-for-new-commu...). Could you send me an email: daosalon /a--t/ protonmail so we can talk?

Did you get an answer?

When have you last been to France? It's the exact opposite, cost of living is higher than in Germany. Almost anything is more expensive, including groceries. Not that it's a huge difference but just saying. I like France but moving there for the cost of living makes no sense when you come from Germany.

Why are people so fixated on the cost of groceries? The vast majority of a person's or family's expenses goes towards rent or mortgage.

If France has cheaper real estate than Germany then you could be much better off there even if the cost of groceries is higher.

Where are you getting a fixation on groceries from a comment that talks about "almost anything" being more expensive? Real estate is more expensive in France too, it's actually among the most expensive in Europe.

Sure, if it were cheaper then less of your money would go towards your mortgage. And if wages in France were cheaper than in Germany upkeep and repairs would be cheaper. And if English were their national language, you'd not have to learn French. None of that is true of course but if it were we could rave about it on HN.

The land (only the land) costs in France half of what I would need to pay in Germany right now.

go to a big city in france and walk around the wrong neighbourhood and experience the crime problems that have started to plague major european cities over the past 20 years.

Yes big cities but probably not a boring countryside

> bought a farm with 2ha

We bought an old farm in the east of Bretagne. I'm mostly into growing trees. What kind of farming equipment do you own for 2ha ? It's too big for growing anything by hand, but not that much for a big tractor

I studied at a school outside of Rennes. I always enjoyed going for walks in the countryside. I remember one day walking on a gravel road and hearing a loud engine and then seeing a 1969ish Ford Mustang crest a hill. It reminded me of home (America).

At least in the US, you can still find "vintage" tractors like the Ford 8N or an old Allis Chalmers or Farm-All, which were sized for much smaller fields.

They're simple enough machines and you can still find parts for them; if you want to add machining to your skillset, you can also find the manuals that tell you how to machine new parts yourself.

There are plenty of small tractor brands in Europe. I know that italians have at least a handful of them.

If you speak spanish go and ask in the agroterra forums.

Vegetable garden is on 300m2. Fruit trees on 500m2 currently expanding it to another 500m2 and planning to add chicken, dwarf goat and geese. 1.3ha is a meadow mown by a farmer to make hay bales, in exchange for 2 bales. My plan is to slowly expand on the meadow to make guest houses (for tourism and yoga retreats for my wife)n fruit trees and animals. Rest of land is composed of buildings (main house, guest house, yoga studio, and other dependencies) and garden.

I am not a farmer, and I don't enjoy spending my time cutting grass, that's why I am planning on adding small animals as they eat grass all day. I am trying to minimize the "human" part of the land, so I am using basic thermic tools (mower, brush cutter...) to cut grass and trees.

Okay, so we're at the same point :) the best thing for you is not having to worry too much about grass and branches disposal !

> Please ama if inspired or investigating France !

I'm inspired, and I'd love to hear more. I'm curious about the prices: I spent a while just now looking up real estate and saw land ranging from 3,000eur (in accessible, no road) to 80,000eur (inaccessible, no road, but near a village) for about the same area, a hectare or so, in the east near the Alps. I don't know enough about France to know if I was looking in a particularly representative area: for interest, my goal would be to live in a stone house (maybe one I built myself) in deeply mid-European forest (oaks, etc) near hilled mixed forest/farmland or near forested mountains.

I'm looking at Estonia for the same reason (plus I live there already.) Few hills and no mountains, and a long winter, but it is a very forested country, and very high-tech.

Regarding Estonia prices are raising very fast (20%+ inflation), the weather is quite cold, people speak very well English in the cities, but if you plan to live in the country-side it's not that great. There is significant risk of geopolitical instability and conflicts in the society (last month lot of people were concerned). Also in the relative short-term, government plans to raise taxes (in particular land taxes) so I'm not sure I'd recommend it as a plan to settle for the next 10 years. You can look at country-side France (cities are generally horrible though but deep country-side is great to live), Switzerland or Slovenia.

Make sure you’re making a lot of money before moving to Switzerland (very high cost of living) and forget about buying property.

Make sure you’re making very little money before moving to Slovenia (very high taxes although you can avoid most of them by earning less than 100k EUR)

Really depends one the area and type of land (legally buildable, water, quality of soil, sun exposition, view, …). Bought my farm for 300k€ (multiple all stone buildings, 250m2 livable without renovation, 300m2 non livable, 2ha land). 1 hour from Toulouse (not remote). Same thing more remote you can find for half the price (Cantal, Puy de Dome, Corrèze, Ariège).

Thankyou!

Tarn looks like a magical part of the world! Definitely plan to visit for about a month once 5g or other solid internet option is available at the Airbnb we end up at.

I have installed a 4g antenna on the roof : https://www.speedtest.net/fr/result/13239915850

50€ for truly unlimited traffic.

Fiber coming next year in all the Tarn!

I’m also very interested in France in the next few years, and the wife and I have talked about it. Thing is, I’m American and she’s Chinese. We might have enough money to buy a place in the near future but actually being able to live there is another problem.

That said, I’m software and she’s finance so we might be able to find something

Mid Spain or the Pyrenees area have amazing spots, just to name two regions, and it is really easy to get a residence permit if you invest in a property.

Is this the golden visa program you are referring to? Do you know if you need to live there full time if you are granted the residence permit or would you be allowed to split your time between there and elsewhere? Also might you know if eventually that residence permit is convertible to permanent residency?

Yes, I was referring to the golden visa program.

I think you only need to visit the country once a year. Lawyer writeups seem to confirm this: https://www.immigrationspain.es/residencia-por-compra-vivien...

AFAIK, yes you can convert it to permanent residency and it is quite easy.

There are other easier routes, for example if you have Jewish ancestry or if you are a national of many countries in South America.

Brittany is a wonderful place. I have bees, hens, tomatoes... What is your project ?

This is fascinating and I’ve long ‘fantasized’ about living that kind of life. A few questions, if you indulge me:

- What prompted you to make that switch to rural developer?

- Are you an expat or French? If an expat, what was your pre-France life like?

- What is cost of living like, and how does that compare with your salary?

- Does/did your salary get affected by your remote location?

> - What prompted you to make that switch to rural developer?

My wife's parents live in the countryside. Coming from an urban place, I enjoyed being surrounded by nature. Best thing for me is coding under a tree, listening to birds.

It's my life journey, I was't happy in cities. I just found my balance in that way but it took us time to find the right place (not to remote, not to expansive, not to "old", etc...).

- Are you an expat or French? If an expat, what was your pre-France life like?

French.

- What is cost of living like, and how does that compare with your salary?

It is really subjective but I feel like living in abundance. Earning 50k€/yr after all taxes (working 30 hours a week, 10 weeks OFF). I bought the farm for 300k€. Standard houses (100m2 with 1000m2 garden) are loaned for 600€/month around here.

- Does/did your salary get affected by your remote location?

I have always worked remotely so no change at all.

> Earning 50k€/yr after all taxes (working 30 hours a week, 10 weeks OFF)

Wow, that's insanely good!

Can I ask how to find such a great job? I live in Austria and make 50k€/yr BEFORE taxes, 40h/week, 5 weeks off, significantly worse off than you, but that seems to be the norm in this country.

It can't be generically that bad. What field are you working in?

Almost 15 years ago I came to Vienna as a sysadmin with 5-10 years of experience for a ~2.5-3kE net monthly salary. I left the country after a few years and around 2017 I came back for over 100kE still for sysadmin/Citrix/automation work (this included the usual 13th salary). Was it just my luck?

It is basically a not ending freelance contract (front end dev). I initially started this gig at 250€ a day (8hours), then 3 years and a half later after making myself non dispensable (investing myself genuinely in the product/ company) I rose my rate each year without asking permission to end at 500€ currently. In the same time my days went from 8hours to 6hours, as my productivity increased. I just love what I do and am good at it. BI Company of 10 people, 10 years old. I found it on malt.com (good French job board).

This all sounds insanely good to me but it doesn't match what I heard from other French devs who emigrated, about the situation in the tech scene in France.

You're basically making six figure salary for much less work than 40h/week, and at a small company while WFH to boot. Unreal. :)

How common is that in France?

Do you feel like you got lucky with neighbors? One fear I have is neighbors not liking some weird nerd living next door.

Are you extroverted or introverted?

Are they mostly nosy or indifferent?

Also, do you find younger neighbors easier to connect with or age doesn't matter?

Thanks!

How's the water situation there?

I was under the impression that it would (soon) be too dry.

It's still fine as it is a semi-continental climate. Raining a lot in winter, summer pretty dry and hot (95 °F / 35°C). I have got a 8m3 of buried water tank, planning to build a 10m3 more (by a pro) and a well that dries up in summer + water from public network (of course).

How did you learn the skills to grow your crops and look after everything?

Not a farmer, still a SWE. Growing crops is a hobby.

Youtube and concret experiences (eg : start with urban farming in shared garden).

En https://www.youtube.com/c/RichardPerkinsofRidgedale https://www.youtube.com/c/jamesprigioni

Fr https://www.youtube.com/c/AgricultureVivri%C3%A8re https://www.youtube.com/c/LepotagerdOlivier https://www.youtube.com/c/AntoinelePotagiste https://www.youtube.com/c/PermacultureFrance

Which surface do you farm? 2ha looks a bit huge :o

Vegetable garden is on 300m2. Fruit trees on 500m2 expanding it to another 500m2 and planning to add chicken, dwarf goat and geese. 1.3ha is mown by a farmer to make hay bales, in exchange for 2 bales. Rest is buildings (main house, guest house, yoga studio, dependencies) and garden.

Were you American and immigrated?

>>France !

He’s definitely French.

Is a space-before-exclamation-point a Frenchism?

Yes. Question marks, exclamation marks, colons and semicolons take a space character before.

More details: https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/should-y...

Thanks for the info. Had no idea!

It is ! Space before any “double” ponctuations ; like this. Isn’t ? Sry

Definitely !

taxes?

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