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Comment by robinsoh | Hacker News Reader

> What I don't understand is, how do people know the caste of some individual if they want to decide if they hire them or not, how does it work? It doesn't seem like people are very public about their caste, so how do they get an advantage? Do the people of a caste somehow communicate with each other?!

The "I don't understand" part is interesting. I learnt one way to contextualize something 'foreign' in a quick way is to apply it to something we're familiar with. For example, in the US, one could easily describe the black-white divide as a more violently enforced caste system. Thus, I presume 'how does it work' is the same way we (American) know the 'caste' of someone applying for a job. Just based on the way someone is named, eg: Hunter, Tanner, Abigail would perhaps be identifiable as 'upper caste' individiuals while names like DeShawn or Laquisha would be identified as 'lower caste'. Then comes linguistic traits and such.

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But my understanding is that skin color and first names do not reliably signal caste differences. That's exactly what I think those of us who aren't familiar with caste find confusing - it seems like caste ought to be similar to social class, but none of the markers of social class I'm familiar with seem to be relevant in caste, whereas things that are totally irrelevant to social class in my circles (last name, vegetarianism, details of religious observance) seem to have great importance.

> But my understanding is that skin color and first names do not reliably signal caste differences.

My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is the opposite.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C... " Color and Caste Discrimination The belief in Aryan racial supremacy dominates social hierarchy practices in India. Upper caste members claim a superior lineage by tracing their “genes” to Aryans, connoting a “natural superiority” over “Shudra” and “ex-untouchables.” (The term “ex-untouchables” refers to Scheduled Castes, also known as Avarna (outside four Varna), Outcastes, Panchama, Antyaja, etc.) This chapter uses terms such as Dalits, ex-untouchables interchangeably, to refer to this population, though the socio-legal term defined to this population is Scheduled Castes—deemed as non-Aryans. Aryans textually are described as a pure, noble, and superior race: physically tall, with sharp noses and lighter skin color. Dasyus or Dasas, on the contrary, are considered of lowly origin and racially inferior due to their dark skin. Such stratification based on skin color is perhaps one of the oldest forms of discrimination and domination in human society. "

The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually.

> The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually.

It sounds like you're saying the research paper I linked to is incorrect? Is there some evidence you could help to cite. Thanks.

The paper you cite is very bad but even it doesn’t claim that caste prejudice is primarily about skin color. It’s about ancestry and ritual purity.

I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

> I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)

I'm sorry but it does sound a bit hilarious to me when I read from your link that the word 'varna' means skin color! The actual research on the topic gives me stuff like:

"What we call caste is referred to in Sanskrit sources by two concepts—varna and jati. They both assume identity through being born into a group and following a particular occupation. The first literally means color and was used rather metaphorically as such when referring to the four major caste groups—Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra, sometimes listed as white, red, yellow, and black. Sociologists sometimes render the concept of varna as ritual or status ranking or alternately as the broader divisions of society. In the latter case, the meaning can be traced to “cover.” The word jati comes from the root ja, meaning to be born. This refers directly to identity based on birth and also extends to occupation, but it is a narrower category than varna and there are hundreds of jatis observing various rules of endogamy and exogamy."

That sounds exactly like the 1 drop rule, just that it is more fractally stratified beyond black, mixed, white categorization that happens here.

The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was prominent in the 20th century United States. It asserted that any person with even one ancestor of black ancestry ("one drop" of "black blood")[1][2] is considered black (Negro or colored in historical terms). It is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status, regardless of proportion of ancestry in different groups.[

The word skin does not appear in either the caste or varna article so no, varna does not mean

> skin color

If you look at the varna article you’ll see the concept is quite a bit more capacious than “skin color”.

> The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[4] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata.[4] Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts.

Anyway caste, varna and jati prejudice exists in India and in dispirit communities with lots of first generation immigrants. So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates.

The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.".

But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually as does the origin story you mentioned "Rigveda" which describes 'upper caste' 'Aryan' conquests over the 'lower caste' dark skinned indigenous population. Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated. Let me guess, you're going to say the 'dark colored' here is something more sophisticated then just light skinned chariot driving nomadic invaders subjugating dark skinned indigenous city dwelling people?

"Through fear of thee [Agni] the dark-coloured inhabitants fled, not waiting for battle, when, O Agni (fire) burning brightly for Puru, and destroying the cities, thou didst shine." (VII, 5, 3)

> The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.".

Yes, that’s still true. Compare Kerala Dalits and Brahmins[1] or Uttar Pradesh ones[2] or Punjabi Dalits and Tamil Brahmins like I did yesterday[3]. Caste isn’t skin color.

> But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually

You can’t tell what caste someone is from their skin color. The entire range of Indian skin colors is in every caste. The distributions are almost certainly different but there are Brahmins as dark as any African and Dalits who look like Afghans.

> Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color

At no stage did I use the word advanced. I suggest you reserve quotation marks for quotations as it aids clear communication. I do not speak Sanskrit but I bow to the expertise of those who do that it means a lot more than color, never mind skin color.

> which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated.

You may not know this but the Vedas are stories of events that happened 3,000-5,000 years ago. The origins of caste prejudice are not super relevant to its modern particulars because Indians in the same region have overlappping distributions of skin color. We’re not talking Chinese and Egyptian here. More like Austrian and Lombard.

[1] https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-dalit-man-assau...

https://medium.com/@jawadakhtar/wedding-rituals-typical-to-k...

[2] https://english.varthabharati.in/india/dalit-groom-takes-out...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craftsvilla.com/blog/the-...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31616355

> For example, in the US, one could easily describe the black-white divide as a more violently enforced caste system.

Yes, you could use a wildly inaccurate analogy to show a lack of understanding.

Caste (varna) and jati are not about race. They’re culturally transmitted and not based on easily visible characteristics.

> Caste (varna) and jati are not about race. They’re culturally transmitted and not based on easily visible characteristics.

I mentioned in my other comment.

My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is the opposite.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C... " Color and Caste Discrimination The belief in Aryan racial supremacy dominates social hierarchy practices in India.

Compare these Tamil Brahmins[1] and Punjabi Dalits[2]. Punjab is in Northwest India, Tamil Nadu the extreme south. They’re the same skin color. You can tell from the abstract that article is trash just fro what it scare quotes. “genes”

[1] https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tamil_brahmins_at_... [2] http://sanhati.com/articles/20079/

There’s a critically acclaimed book on the analogy. Even if you think it’s not technically accurate doesn’t mean it’s not a valuable perspective. And given how malleable languages is technically-accurate isn’t even very solid :). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Di...

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